244 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm just saying your original comments (whether you meant them that way or not) came across as pretty disparaging toward people who (through no fault of their own) have very fair skin.

It wasn't a comment on skin color, it was a comment on developer choice to twice in two years market very fair skinned white women as their female protagonists. I didn't read the comment I quoted as being negative toward fair skinned women either. It was also a comment on a curious developer choice.

Granted, it's one thing to say "okay, for two out of two Bioware games that had default female character models they've been what I would call fair-skinned. Now I'd like to see something different." though that's not even a super-strong precedent to complain about.

Two in a row is a problem to me as a black woman that wants to recognize herself in female character.

But the implication of your complaint was that there was something unappealing about people with fair skin (when in fact I've known plenty of people who are fairer even than FShep and FHawke and are already self-conscious about it). It sounded like you think fair skin is gross -- not just that you'd like something different (which I'd agree with, and I think is fair). Best to be careful when we're talking about race.

I don't think my comment was anywhere near how you read it. I said such a pale female protagonist was not ideal to me as a woman of color. I didn't say I just hate fair skin.

[Xilizhra]

It wasn't a comment on skin color, it was a comment on developer choice to twice in two years market very fair skinned white women as their female protagonists. I didn't read the comment I quoted as being negative toward fair skinned women either. It was also a comment on a curious developer choice.

Shepard is Canadian and Hawke is faux-English, from a region that doesn't seem to get that much traffic from the few areas of Thedas that have large amounts of darker-skinned people. Also, Shepard was one protagonist spread across three games, so it was only a decision made once. Regardless, why is specific skin shading an issue, as opposed to ethnicity, which I could sort of see?

[Warden Commander David]

I don't understand why it NEEDS to be either gender.

Why does it matter so much to you if the cover art and trailers show a certain gender?

I couldn't care less if DA:O showed a dwarf on their cover art and used an elf for their trailers. I would just be damn happy that I could make my male human character and that the game itself was badass.

This just seems like such a petty thing to be asking/demanding.

Modifié par Warden Commander David, 24 mars 2013 - 05:48 .

[Terraforming2154]

*edit*

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 24 mars 2013 - 05:46 .

[Melca36]

Didnt they already say they would be using a woman as well as man for marketing purposes?

[Terraforming2154]

Melca36 wrote...

Didnt they already say they would be using a woman as well as man for marketing purposes?

Unless I'm entirely mistaken, I believe a tweet from one of the devs said something to that effect.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 24 mars 2013 - 05:49 .

[New Display Name]

It's an issue because white is considered the default and people with darker skin color are underrepresented. Like women are.

[mickey111]

The fans will buy the game whether it has a female or not. Other people will buy it because they think the game is good.

What is the point of this thread?

[Xilizhra]

HJF4 wrote...

It's an issue because white is considered the default and people with darker skin color are underrepresented. Like women are.

Granted, but it presents a knottier marketing problem, as you'd need rather more than two people to cover the various races.

[New Display Name]

Warden Commander David wrote...
I couldn't care less if DA:O showed a dwarf on their cover art and used an elf for their trailers. I would just be damn happy that I could make my male human character and that the game itself was badass.

If you weren't already invested in the franchise, how would you know that you could play a male human character instead of the dwarf on the cover or elf in the trailer?

That's the thing.
Many people did not know you could play as female in Mass Effect 1 & 2, because marketing of female Shepard was nearly nonexistent. That could mean a lot of female gamers - or anyone who likes to play as female - could be missing out. That does affect sales.

You could obviously do research, but if the marketing gives you no indication that you play as female, many people won't bother.

[K_Tabris]

mickey111 wrote...

The fans will buy the game whether it has a female or not. Other people will buy it because they think the game is good.

What is the point of this thread?

We don't have much to talk about?

I'm all for having the female Inquisitor on the cover. Put the male on the back.

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard is Canadian and Hawke is faux-English, from a region that doesn't seem to get that much traffic from the few areas of Thedas that have large amounts of darker-skinned people. Also, Shepard was one protagonist spread across three games, so it was only a decision made once.

MaleShep and MaleHawke are not nearly as fair as FemShep and FemHawke in-game. MaleShep was never fair and MaleHawke is rather tan in-game.

Regardless, why is specific skin shading an issue, as opposed to ethnicity, which I could sort of see?

Because white skin, fair skin especially, along with blonde hair and blue eyes in the US has been considered beautiful and anything significantly darker considered less attractive or unattractive.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 mars 2013 - 06:04 .

[mickey111]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

mickey111 wrote...

The fans will buy the game whether it has a female or not. Other people will buy it because they think the game is good.

What is the point of this thread?

We don't have much to talk about?

I'm all for having the female Inquisitor on the cover. Put the male on the back.

Yeah, okay, whatever. Before we go any further in this conversation, I'm interested in what you think about the huge massive amounts of pissed off women who were complaining about default femsheps original hair colour been blonde before it became red? Your answer will determine how much I value your opinions on anything you say.

[Xilizhra]

MaleShep and MaleHawke are not nearly as fair as FemShep and FemHawke in-game. MaleShep was never fair and MaleHawke is rather tan in-game.

I never noticed a significant difference of skin tones between Shepard, though I'll concede the Hawke one.

Because white skin, fair skin especially, along with blonde hair and blue eyes in the US has been considered beautiful and anything significantly darker considered less attractive or unattractive.

But Shepard has red hair and Hawke has black; moreover, there was rather an outcry over the initial voting when it seemed that Shepard would be blonde. Also, Isabela's been rather prominently featured.

[Warden Commander David]

Some peoples complaints are so absurd.

Saying that all of the US sees darker skin toned people as less or unattractive...yet so many people in the US are very fond of tanning.

Saying that a cgi trailer of a game alone is enough to make a purchase. That's absurd.

This whole topic is absurd.

[mickey111]

This isn't the first time I've been tempted to get my whole account nuked by doing something drastic, and it won't be the last I'm sure.

Modifié par mickey111, 24 mars 2013 - 06:26 .

[lil yonce]

Xilizhra wrote...

I never noticed a significant difference of skin tones between Shepard, though I'll concede the Hawke one.

I think MaleShep is rather tan.

But Shepard has red hair and Hawke has black; moreover, there was rather an outcry over the initial voting when it seemed that Shepard would be blonde.

Hair color other than blonde may be important to white women seeking inclusion/different standards of beauty, but tanner/darker skin is more important to me as a black woman. FemShep moved from blonde hair, blue eyes and fair skin to red hair, green eyes and fair skin. Its not much of a difference to me. She's still very fair with features most often associated with whites only. Prior to ME3, FemHawke had black hair, blue eyes and fair skin. Its a trend with the female characters. The male characters aren't depicted this way.

Also, Isabela's been rather prominently featured.

She was white washed in the advertising she was featured in for DA2 and her apperance in-game gave no real indication she was black to a lot of people.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 mars 2013 - 06:41 .

[Warden Commander David]

Another thing I don't understand is why is it such a big deal what the cover/trailer character looks like when we get to fully customize our character to our liking...

[brushyourteeth]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Regardless, why is specific skin shading an issue, as opposed to ethnicity, which I could sort of see?Because white skin, fair skin especially, along with blonde hair and blue eyes in the US has been considered beautiful and anything significantly darker considered less attractive or unattractive.

Because white skin, fair skin especially, along with blonde hair and blue eyes in the US has been considered beautiful and anything significantly darker considered less attractive or unattractive.

Okay. So what you're saying is you've been made to feel ugly, so you want Bioware to put someone who looks like you on the cover of their next game so that you can feel like the world is finally acknowledging that you're equally pretty.

For what it's worth, I'm sure you're gorgeous. And when you pick up your copy of the next DA game, you'll be able to make a BA-looking super-hot Inquisitor that looks as much or as little like you as you want. But the cover of the game isn't going to give you the kind of validation you're looking for. I've yet to find one that looks sufficiently like me to convince me that Mattel was wrong and I don't have to look like Barbie to be pretty. And in the meantime, again, I'd just be suuuuper careful, when talking about skin tone, to let others know that your desire to see a hot black woman on the cover of a Bioware product isn't actually just disgust with having to see a fair-skinned one.

I never do this, but I think I'm actually going to quote myself.
... yes I am.

brushyourteeth said...
I'm all for diversity, but I'm just going to put it out there that if the gold-standard for "acceptable marketing" means "the hero looks just like me," most of us are going to be out of luck. There's no way that any game company can (or really, should have to) live up to that. 

Edited for quote weirdness.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 24 mars 2013 - 06:46 .

[lil yonce]

Warden Commander David wrote...

Saying that all of the US sees darker skin toned people as less or unattractive...yet so many people in the US are very fond of tanning. .

Historically, yes it has and blonde, blue eyed white women are still widely considered the standard of ultimate beauty. 

[Warden Commander David]

Quoted for truth...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Regardless, why is specific skin shading an issue, as opposed to ethnicity, which I could sort of see?Because white skin, fair skin especially, along with blonde hair and blue eyes in the US has been considered beautiful and anything significantly darker considered less attractive or unattractive.

Okay. So what you're saying is you've been made to feel ugly, so you want Bioware to put someone who looks like you on the cover of their next game so that you can feel like the world is finally acknowledging that you're equally pretty.

For what it's worth, I'm sure you're gorgeous. And when you pick up your copy of the next DA game, you'll be able to make a BA-looking super-hot Inquisitor that looks as much or as little like you as you want. But the cover of the game isn't going to give you the kind of validation you're looking for. I've yet to find one that looks sufficiently like me to convince me that Mattel was wrong and I don't have to look like Barbie to be pretty. And in the meantime, again, I'd just be suuuuper careful, when talking about skin tone, to let others know that your desire to see a hot black woman on the cover of a Bioware product isn't actually just disgust with having to see a fair-skinned one.

I never do this, but I think I'm actually going to quote myself.
... yes I am.

brushyourteeth said...
I'm all for diversity, but I'm just going to put it out there that if the gold-standard for "acceptable marketing" means "the hero looks just like me," most of us are going to be out of luck. There's no way that any game company can (or really, should have to) live up to that. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Youth4Ever, I notice you mention you're disappointed in us for making it two in a row now.

Prior to this two in a row, what were your thoughts?

[Fredward]

Political correctness to the max ya'll! Also since all men hate women the only way a female protag could be on the cover is if she's in the kitchen, barefoot, baking cookies with a big ass pregnant belly.

But seriously I'd like a "canonical" female protag this time around. And she could be rainbow coloured for all I care.

[lil yonce]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Okay. So what you're saying is you've been made to feel ugly, so you want Bioware to put someone who looks like you on the cover of their next game so that you can feel like the world is finally acknowledging that you're equally pretty.

They don't have to put a black woman on the cover, just someone who isn't so fair and I'd be happy. Its not so much I want black women to be validated, I just don't want them or anyone with skin darker than snow to be consistently excluded. I think the default protagonist should be more universally appealing.

For what it's worth, I'm sure you're gorgeous. And when you pick up your copy of the next DA game, you'll be able to make a BA-looking super-hot Inquisitor that looks as much or as little like you as you want. But the cover of the game isn't going to give you the kind of validation you're looking for. I've yet to find one that looks sufficiently like me to convince me that Mattel was wrong and I don't have to look like Barbie to be pretty.

I haven't made a female character in a Bioware game. I've never felt the need to play an avatar and the customization has always been lacking and if I do my goal isn't necessicarily to make a black character, its just the principle really. I don't think its intentional by Bioware by any means but its like a subliminal message about color that needs to be outed.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 mars 2013 - 07:23 .

[mickey111]

My suggestion for the front cover is for the female protag to be shown getting punched in the stomach. On the back we'd see only her panties and bare legs as she is is hauled off, unconscious. On the flip side of the front cover we'd see a pic of the male protagonist looking powerful and badass and pissed off and ****. On the disc it would say "go claim your power".