26 réponses à ce sujet

[ColorsFade]

Is there a chart that shows what level is appropriate for +weapons? Like what is the minimum level when +1 should really show up? +2, etc.? 

[kamal_]

The official campaigns use +1 every 4 levels. You're free to use whatever you want. I made +3 very rare in my Path of Evil campaign, so character still mostly had +2 stuff (and weapon elemental damage was limited to 1 or 2 points, not 1-6 or 2-12), and you could reach epic in that. Just let people know what the magic level is like so they know what to expect, low/high etc.

[ColorsFade]

kamal_ wrote...

The official campaigns use +1 every 4 levels. You're free to use whatever you want. I made +3 very rare in my Path of Evil campaign, so character still mostly had +2 stuff (and weapon elemental damage was limited to 1 or 2 points, not 1-6 or 2-12), and you could reach epic in that. Just let people know what the magic level is like so they know what to expect, low/high etc.

Yeah, I was trying to do the math myself and was coming up with somethign like every 4th level. 

Part of the reason I want to know this is because of my testing script. I use it to create various party groupings using the NPC Companions for my Campaign, and then it auto-levels the entire group using default character builds. But the one part that was lacking was equipment. Testing modules later in the campaign I need to be able to automatically provide the characters with level-appropriate weapons and armor. It's kind of dumb to test an encounter with a level 10 party and level 1 equipment. 

I was able to write code in the script to automatically add the proper weapons/armor to the characters, but I wasn't sure what level I should start adding +1, what level for +2, etc. 

It sure makes testing nice when all I have to do is run a script from the debug console and I have a ready-made, level-appropriate group for testing encounters. 

[PJ156]

I have used +1 per five levels in my campaign. Occasional +4 stuff around at the end but only bracers of armour.

PJ

[Arkalezth]

What Kamal said. +1 each 4 levels is usually considered balanced, but it also depends on lore, preference, etc. For example, I used to play on a level 20 PW where weapons were mundane or +1 at most, as there were not "magical" weapons, but they had extra properties based on their real life counterparts (for example, warhammers had extra piercing damage).

[ColorsFade]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...

If you look at the generic store placeables they say what levels they're recommended for in their properties.There might even be something in the loot dropping scripts ( don't ask me where they are or what they're called but they must exist ) because items go up in power dependant on level.

That was my next idea, but I knew that one would take some research. 

[Dann-J]

You could follow the weapon enchantment level requirements, and make available whatever enhancement bonus the player could enchant for themselves if they had Craft Magic Arms & Armour (ie. +1 for every three levels).

The OC base enhancement recipies are:

Level 3: +1
Level 6: +2
Level 9: +3
Level 12: +4
Level 15: +5

Although personally, I'd make the gap between levels slightly higher as the enhancement level progresses, rather than following a linear regression. In many RPGs the equipment you learn to forge for yourself is often slightly more powerful than what you can buy or find.

Level 3: +1
Level 6: +2
Level 10: +3 (self-enchant at L9)
Level 14: +4 (self-enchant at L12)
Level 19: +5 (self-enchant at L15)
Level 24: +6
Level 30: +7
Level 36: +8

Modifié par DannJ, 25 mars 2013 - 12:42 .

[ColorsFade]

There's no crafting in my mod, so I'm not concerned about that aspect.

I just wanted an even and predictable distribution so I can auto-level companions for play-testing. Most of what you guys are posting is pretty close to what I was coming up with on my own.

It's all good.

I have total control and I playtest the hell out of my encounters, so it all should be balanced well. The big thing is I want to balance it for Hardcore mode. Anything else should be easier.

[Arkalezth]

@ColorsFade: What level range do you expect your module to cover?

[Dann-J]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...

I think it all depends on what the party have to hit and protect themselves against.

It'd be especially cruel to include a dragon with damage reduction vs +2 weapons, but only make +1 weapons available in the module! I'd also give it a spell resistance feat rather than a hide property, so that SR works properly as well. But then, I'm a complete bastard...

[Jfoxtail]

While the advice above is all very good I cannot help but add and emphasize; in both high level and low level magic settings what makes the weapon and trinkets so exciting to discover is the "lore and thought" put into the placement. How it relates to the plot. +3 Wizard staff (longsword, cleric mace, Barbarian Hammer, Dwarven Axe) of Dragonslaying that is keen and does massive critical's plus 1D6 flame damage for a 5th level character is perfectly acceptable if a White Dragon is your end antagonist.

Now that might be a slight exaggeration...

Drizzit's Frostbrand Scimitar (Icing-death) is so very special as he was destined to discover it and it help banish a denizen of the lower fiery pits. I have no idea what level Drizit was at that point in the books other than he was less than epic. Further he continued to use it despite the fact their were other more powerful weapons like the sentient long sword that came into later novels. This of course is easy in a book.... where the ending is predetermined. But a mod is similar. What makes it special is that this very weapon was "fated" to be in his hands.

I think players will care less about the relative power of the magic in your mod if it all 'seems to fit'.

Where players critic a mod is when uber loot and uber gold is available without thought...I think you would be surprised the the criticism would be muted if it fits.

In fact the "merchants of Neverwinter" and their sudden importation of higher level weapons just as the adventurer becomes higher level is related to the concept that the campaign "railroaded" me.

We shouldn't have hedge wizards in the remote mountain selling "dozens of fireball scrolls a copper crown a dozen"....unless we discover this "hedge wizard" is actually the dragons mortal nemesis; a Harper Agent enduring a half lifetime of isolation just waiting for the prophetic adventurer once divined 20 years ago....

See Kamal's PofE. I leather armour I got in the first 20 minutes of the game (from a henchman) lasted me darn near to the end...Infact I envisioned it as the "price of corruption" that NPC was willing to pay to see the right adventurer see his cause through.... it just made sense.

Modifié par Jfoxtail, 25 mars 2013 - 04:27 .

[ColorsFade]

@Jfoxtail - Loot is a pretty important aspect for me. That's always been a big issue for me and I want to get it right (for me).

Hence, no crafting.

When it comes to vendors, what happens is, there's a clear progression through the module of locations you travel and "call home" for a while, and as you encounter new cities, the new vendors you meet will sell "level appropriate" loot according to their standard tables. And this will actually make sense, because you're going to travel to more dangerous ground as you progress through the campaign.

But vendors are going to be limited in their ability to sell truly "unique" items. You can get a +3 weapon from them, but you won't get a +3 weapon that deals special damage and carries special properties...

The truly unique stuff will come from two sources: treasure drops from boss creatures/chests (which will be very good stuff, and all custom created with lore) & a custom item mechanic I am calling "artifacts". If you recall Cromwell from BG2, that's similar to how it works.

Artifacts will be the most powerful items in the game. When you discover an artifact, you'll know, as they are clearly labeled. The blueprints for artifacts are being copied from things like a Ghoul's Hand, or a Skeleton Rib. But I add lore to them and label them "Artifact" and you, as the player, have some clue that this is something that will likely lead to a special kind of item. You just need to find the right person to help you, and the rest of the necessary materials.

Artifacts have to be taken to someone with the proper knowledge of what to do with them. Not every NPC who knows how to create items from artifacts will be able to create all available items - most of them will only be able to create a couple things that are their "specialty". And a single artifact isn't enough to create an item usually. You're often going to need a combination of items. Maybe a plain iron longsword, an artifact, a gem, a copied spell, perhaps a potion or even a mundane item of some type. The NPC will help you figure it all out and it will vary from item to item.

Mostly, I just want this to be a fun thing for players who like to acquire powerful items, like myself. This is sort of my replacement for crafting, but it allows me, as the developer, to have 100% control over the end result and make sure it's balanced within the game. I can determine *when* a player will receive a given item by limiting access to the artifact that creates it, or components, etc. And I can control how powerful it is.

I want everything to be balanced well. That's paramount.

For me, as the player, the joy here is having (side) quests related around item acquisition. If I stumble upon a cool artifact and an NPC tells me I need the head of Fire Giant to help turn it into a powerful weapon, I am likely to start poking around and asking questions for the location of the nearest Fire Giants... and who knows where that's going to take me.

The artifact idea was borne from reading the descriptions for a couple NPC's in a town where part of this story takes place. These NPC's had neat descriptions, to me, and I thought it wouldn't be much of a stretch if they were the kind of people who could create artifact items. From that point, I decided I wanted this to be an important part of the game. I'm an old Everquest player, as I said, and item quests (epic weapon quests, etc.) really excite me.

Artifacts > Drops > Vendors

@Arkalezth: 1-20. I don't know if it will go beyond that, but it could. Story-wise, it makes the most sense.

And the reason I wanted to do that wide of a range is because when I first started looking for player-made content after the OC, I wanted something big and epic, for level 1-20, and I didn't really find it. There are a LOT of great modules for small level ranges. But I wanted to play another OC, only something better (I have issues with the OC...)

I've had this big sweeping story sitting in my head for a while... So there you go.

[rjshae]

I pretty much follow the DMG for D&D v3; the monsters are scaled for that rate of item progress, so it makes sense to just follow the standard increments.

[Muazen]

Following the progress of the official adventures or looking at the PnP rulebook recommendations is always a good idea. If one implements crafting it would probably be good to lag behind the crafting a little bit, since it requires a feat, but on the other hand OC didn't get it quite right with its "find +2 stuff or craft +5, 2d6 vs evil, 5 life steal silver weapons" approach either.

For me personally, I don't like the "each town you find +1 better sword than the last" approach, so I tend to have too much stuff at the start of the game, but less progress over time. On my module there is a hidden PnP style Flametongue on level 2! But since the items will likely not terribly improve over time, so you might stay with the same lucky find for a very long time. Other reason is that I like items to be a bit unsual, and they have to have +2 / +3's worth of enchantments on that for that to happen - if you follow the PnP logic. I don't really believe you gain anything by distributing only -1 rusty daggers for the first five levels since then you'll just make the enemies weaker too and then its just the same fight with less interesting weapons.

[Dann-J]

Muazen wrote...

On my module there is a hidden PnP style Flametongue on level 2! But since the items will likely not terribly improve over time, so you might stay with the same lucky find for a very long time

 
In the original Baldur's Gate you could get hold of a +2 longsword that did ice damage quite early on (although you had to kill a mercenary called Greywolf to get it). It wasn't unusual to keep using it all the way to the end of the game.

Muazen wrote...

I don't really believe you gain anything by distributing only -1 rusty daggers for the first five levels since then you'll just make the enemies weaker too and then its just the same fight with less interesting weapons.

I'm including rusty weapons and armour in my current module, although more as a sort of 'lucky dip' than anything else. You can buy bottles of shinewater from a halfling village that restores them to their original condition, revealing any hidden special properties they might also have (although most rusty equipment will be standard non-enchanted items).

Modifié par DannJ, 02 avril 2013 - 12:45 .

[kamal_]

One thing I hate is the elemental damage being 1-6, all the sudden you roughly double the weapon's power. A +1 weapon with 1-6 elemental damage is generally better than a +3 weapon, yet you find +1 +1-6 elemental normally before you even start finding +2 items.

[PJ156]

kamal_ wrote...

One thing I hate is the elemental damage being 1-6, all the sudden you roughly double the weapon's power. A +1 weapon with 1-6 elemental damage is generally better than a +3 weapon, yet you find +1 +1-6 elemental normally before you even start finding +2 items.

I agree with you Kamal_ all damage boumses should be prescriptive; +1 fire etc. Partly for the reasons you cite and partly for GM/modder balance.

PJ

[Dann-J]

For most of my own custom blueprints, I tend to use no more than 1d4 elemental damage for +1 or +2 weapons. Often for +1 weapons I'll only have +2 (or sometimes 1d2) elemental damage.

[Muazen]

1d6 elemental damage does seem much, but that´s what the source material deems equal to +1 enchantment. Then again, 1d6 elemental damage is 3.5 damage that is relatively easy resist halfway through the game, while enchantment is +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and much harder to resist as well. (Not to mention that on PnP the enchantment also made your weapon more durable and all kinds of awesome, which was only an issue with sadistic gm´s and not at all in NWN2.)

But since it´s "by the book", I find it hard to fault them for it. Actually, it might even be more important to raise your hit chances in NWN2 where you attacks don´t cap out and your level 30 fighter is still going to be performing one of his attacks with +5 base bab.

Somewhat relatedly, how do you guys feel about the odd +2 magic damage on adamantium weapons? This was not on PnP and it certainly takes away an enchantment slots (enchantment slot also wasn´t a thing on PnP). I actually almost like it, because like with the enchantment bonus, you´ll do less damage than the elemental enchantments 3.5 damage, but it´s probably not going to get resisted almost at all, making it sort of reliable on the same way than the enchantments.

Even the mighty flametongue is just a +1 longsword when your opponent realizes they can pay few pennies for 5-10 fire resistance.

[Arkalezth]

Muazen wrote...

Then again, 1d6 elemental damage is 3.5 damage that is relatively easy resist halfway through the game, while enchantment is +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and much harder to resist as well.

Unless you're referring to some specific items in the OC, it's more like the contrary. Physical damage reduction is more common and easier to get than elemental reduction, and even if you fight someone who's resistant to elemental damage, chances are that the resistance is only to one element. Elemental damage also bypasses stuff like adamantine reduction, etc.

[Muazen]

Arkalezth, the physical damage does not apply separately to the enchantment, unless your attack is so weak that 0 damage gets through the enchantment part will always increase your damage.

Even though lot of enemies have physical damage reduction, you cannot avoid doing physical damage with melee attacks... thefore any physical damage bonus WILL go past the rather common damage reduction because your standard physical damage you have anyway is usually enough to negate it.

Also, Arkalezth, no offense, but every time you post something you're correcting someone, and it's often not really very relevant. It's kind of a bad habbit and makes you seem like incredibly well-mannered troll, if you DO feel that someone needs to be straightened by your wisdom, make sure to read through the post couple of times to see if you understood their point correctly.

Modifié par Muazen, 03 avril 2013 - 10:14 .

[Arkalezth]

If I understood your post right...

Physical and elemental damage DO apply separately, even though you only see a floating number. Damage reduction doesn't protect against non-physical damage.

If you mean that the +X enchantment isn't applied separately, I know, but that's not what I'm discussing.

Edit: And now I'm a troll. OK, next time I disagree with something, I'll just shut up.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 03 avril 2013 - 10:29 .

[Muazen]

Arkalezth, well, my point is that I said that if you get a +1 enchantment, that's pretty much gonna raise your damage and hitting by 1 no matter what (sure, its not 3.5 damage, but its 1 damage thats always gonna happen and chances to hit to boot) since I was trying to explain my theory why 1d6 elemental damage is considered equal to +1 enchantment in PnP. (Unless you're playing around with dexterity and two kamas, then you may simply not overcome the damage reduction.)

But when I said about misunderstanding me, I meant that when you said physical damage reduction is most common, you're right, but since it'll be overcome anyway by any melee character worth his salt. Therefore the physical damage reduction being common does not negate my point about damage bonuses from enchantments applying practically on every hit.

Edit: Don't be offended, I did say incredibly well mannered. I was just asking you to watch out not to shoot down other people's comments so hastily.

Modifié par Muazen, 03 avril 2013 - 10:34 .