306 réponses à ce sujet

[Goneaviking]

Adoramei wrote...

Jayce F wrote...

Ashley isn't a racist or a xenophobe, she just has personal trust issues and is dubious that the council isn't ultimately the Turian, Salarian and Asari's way of placing their own interests ahead of everyone else's. If you recall her analogy about sicking a dog on a Grizzly bear in ME1, then watch the first council meeting in ME3, she's proven correct.

She's not clairvoyant. Being "proven right" doesn't justify a dislike/distrust based on race. And unfortunately, she agreed with that analogy saying that her feelings were aligned with it as if she would do the same. I do not like her views, but don't get me wrong. I accept her as a character. Just a character I don't like for my own reasons. Nothing wrong with finding a character offensive. It means that the character was effective by getting an emotional response. Good and bad. Humans aren't perfect, after all.

She doesn't have to be clairvoyant, it's the only rational way to look at the world. All groups will ultimately put their own needs ahead of others' if the two come into conflict, though it's not uncommon for groups to mythologise how virtuous they are by exaggerating a handful of exceptions out of all proportion.

The council looks to the council's own interest because it's absurd that they should do otherwise.

[Spartas Husky]

Man this is still going?

Goneaviking, love your signature lol

[Barquiel]

Jayce F wrote...

Ashley isn't a racist or a xenophobe, she just has personal trust issues and is dubious that the council isn't ultimately the Turian, Salarian and Asari's way of placing their own interests ahead of everyone else's. If you recall her analogy about sicking a dog on a Grizzly bear in ME1, then watch the first council meeting in ME3, she's proven correct.

People don't call Ashley racist because of the bear-dog analogy. That's common sense. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack. The council is absolutely right in ME3, Earth has no military or strategic significance that should have placed it at the highest priority (especially over planets like Thessia or Palaven). But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster". I would describe her as a mild racist (at least in ME1/2, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race.

Modifié par Barquiel, 28 mars 2013 - 09:57 .

[RECON64BIT7]

 Williams is boring I regret not sacrificing her.

[Adoramei]

What I'm saying is that saying, "Well, she was right wasn't she?" doesn't make discrimination any less discriminatory. It is what it is. She predicted correctly, yes. She was right in that sense. However, she still makes assumptions based on race. (Like not trusting Garrus because he's a Turian, which she defends by saying that she has something extra to prove due to her family's past standing with Turians.) They were wrong, and she was wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right either.

I've been discriminated against all my life because I'm not a "typical American" race. People assume that I'm good at math, play piano, and speak broken English. There's only one part of that that's true. Could have very well been wrong too. When people start looking at one another as a whole based on race rather than individual, living creatures, we start to go wrong. My parents taught me to judge others based on who they are rather than what they are, and that philosophy has served me well over the years. Yes, I've been screwed over in life. But I know that that's a reflection on the person as an individual.

I'm not saying that it's perfect and neither am I. But discrimination to meet discrimination is still discrimination. Just saying that it just is and not arguing whether she is a character that people should like or not. Everyone has their own preferences and acceptable flaws. That is one that is not acceptable to me whereas for others may say the same about flaws I find acceptable.

[k.lalh]

In every run through I've done with Male Shep, I've saved Ash, except the one I'm playing through currently. So far Kaidan has been pretty dull, but to be fair, I'm only about 3/8 done ME2. I expect that he will improve by ME3.

[NovaBlastMarketing]

I have said my piece my view is that Ashley is not a racist. I not going to discuss that further because the fact that it is mostly an "opinion" based discussion .

No one can say Ashley is a racist by "fact " because it simply isn't true.

Since this is a Williams Vrs Alenko thread lets compare notes

Ashley starts out being distrustful with aliens and may have said some un-politically correct things but her underlining character is not one of xenophobia or radical pro- human as stated in her wiki,  by herself in her opinion of Terra Firma and her  dissaproving comments regarding Cerberus  being "extremists" and later by the fact she  disapproves of Shepard having anything to do with them

Not only that it is stated in the ME1 wiki that

Eventually Ashley comes to her senses and agrees to work with the Normandy's multi-species crew to stop Saren, even becoming good friends with Garrus, Liara, Tali, and Wrex.

Which is later proven to be true in ME3  when She approves of your relationship with Tali and even says she is like a "sister " to her .


Kaiden is IMO is worse.... its interesting how the post is ignored that shows in ME1  Kaiden can Turn into and official xenophobic pro human renegade and from what  have read even has a "dam aliens" rant.

On the previous pages someone posted a vid regarding this

That right t here is pretty much worse than anything Ashley has been accused of.

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 28 mars 2013 - 11:16 .

[Adoramei]

Yes, but a default personality vs. one that can be affected and molded by the influence of an anti-alien attitude Shepard would be the big difference there. Same can be said for Ashley in that way, I'm sure. And just because she thinks that one party with similar affiliations goes too far doesn't make her views not her views. There are varying degrees. It's not a black-and-white issue. The fact that she doesn't like extremists doesn't change her views. I dislike extremists to my political views, but that doesn't change the fact that my political views are my political views. It just means that I'm not at the level that they are.

Thing is, if I leave her behind on Virmire, she never reaches the point where she changes. For all my Shepard knows, she could always have remained the same in that respect. Again, there is nothing wrong with someone disliking her. It doesn't invalidate your Shepard's relationship with her or your personal view of the character. When we start going, "Well.. the other guy is bad!" it becomes like the political commercials we all have to endure during election years. Shifting the view from one to put heat on the other rather than focusing on the strengths of the nominee.

And I admit that Kaidan fans do the same thing, but he has a less offensive default personality, so people don't seem to need to jump on the defensive as much. Hey, some people like contraversial characters. Some might see the characters that stick to their views as strong. (And might I add that some of the reason why Ashley's views were watered down were probably due to fan feedback, which is just as annoying to me. It makes her seem too flaky and ends up with writing in 3 that doesn't seem like her anymore. Even if I don't like her views, I respect that she is a character that some people like. It's not fair to them that they changed her for people who won't even use her.)

But your view isn't "fact" either, no matter how vehemently expressed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. But believe me, I know on a personal level what discrimination is. What racism is. I won't change my views on the subject. Watering it down to, "politically incorrect" does not necessarily make it any less than what it is. And like I've said, the character DOES evolve. Can't the Ashley lovers just appreciate the fact that she changes and evolves rather than waving their arms and shouting every time someone points out a flaw?

Aren't the flaws what make a believable character?

Modifié par Adoramei, 29 mars 2013 - 01:32 .

[AVPen]

Barquiel wrote...

People don't call Ashley racist because of the bear-dog analogy. That's common sense. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack. The council is absolutely right in ME3, Earth has no military or strategic significance that should have placed it at the highest priority (especially over planets like Thessia or Palaven). But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster". I would describe her as a mild racist (at least in ME1/2, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race.

I think the "bug-eyed monster" quote was in reference to the Rachni instead of Liara (although she does have big eyes, lol), but the rest of your points are pretty accurate.

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

Which is later proven to be true in ME3  when She approves of your relationship with Tali and even says she is like a "sister " to her .

Ash can say that all she wants, but if you take a ME1-romanced Ashley and a ME2-romanced Tali on the geth dreadnaught mission, you quickly see the claws come out and Ashley getting rather nasty with Tali (although Tali does manage to come back and pwn her awesomely  ).

[Blind2Society]

ME1 - Ashley
ME3 - Kaiden

[Adoramei]

AVPen wrote...

NovaBlastMarketing wrote...

Which is later proven to be true in ME3  when She approves of your relationship with Tali and even says she is like a "sister " to her .

Ash can say that all she wants, but if you take a ME1-romanced Ashley and a ME2-romanced Tali on the geth dreadnaught mission, you quickly see the claws come out and Ashley getting rather nasty with Tali (although Tali does manage to come back and pwn her awesomely  ).

You mean this scene?

[AVPen]

Adoramei wrote...

AVPen wrote...

Ash can say that all she wants, but if you take a ME1-romanced Ashley and a ME2-romanced Tali on the geth dreadnaught mission, you quickly see the claws come out and Ashley getting rather nasty with Tali (although Tali does manage to come back and pwn her awesomely  ).

You mean this scene?

^ Bingo, bingo.

[mtmercydave09]

I also don't think Ashley is racist. I think starting out in ME1 she's just young and naive. Being around Shepard and the rest of the crew is what opens her eyes.

[SavagelyEpic]

I'D LEAVE THEM BOTH ON VIRMIRE IF I COULD!!!

[Zeldrik1389]

One thing that annoy the crap outta me was the scene back in ME1, when Ashley commented sth about alien aren't so different from animal (can't remember exact words and location). But from that moment, she never appear in my squad again. Most of the time I let her blown to bits on Virmire, sometimes I let her live (and tolerated her freakin rant on Horizon) just so I can shut her up for good with a bullet in ME 3. She can "claim" or cite poems till the end of time if she wants, I'm more than happy to praise her with a shoot to the face.

[Argolas]

mtmercydave09 wrote...

I also don't think Ashley is racist. I think starting out in ME1 she's just young and naive. Being around Shepard and the rest of the crew is what opens her eyes.

Naive?

ME1 Ashley: "If your cornered by a bear, and the only way to save yourself is to sick your dog on it, so you can escape, your going to."

ME3 Asari Councillor: "The cruel and unfortunate truth is that while the Reapers focus on earth, we can prepare and regroup."

Ashley was right from the beginning. In case you didn't figure out yet, the bear is the Reapers and earth is the dog.

[nos_astra]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...
One thing that annoy the crap outta me was the scene back in ME1, when Ashley commented sth about alien aren't so different from animal (can't remember exact words and location).

She said "I can't tell the aliens from the animals."

Rumor has it it was meant to be said only when you're close to a Keeper, the probably non-sentient, indoctrinated caretakers of the Citadel. I think, it's true. Chris L'Etoile, her writer at that time, seems like a smart guy, he wouldn't give her a line like that without context.

Modifié par klarabella, 29 mars 2013 - 08:25 .

[Barquiel]

AVPen wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

People don't call Ashley racist because of the bear-dog analogy. That's common sense. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack. The council is absolutely right in ME3, Earth has no military or strategic significance that should have placed it at the highest priority (especially over planets like Thessia or Palaven). But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster". I would describe her as a mild racist (at least in ME1/2, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race.

I think the "bug-eyed monster" quote was in reference to the Rachni instead of Liara (although she does have big eyes, lol), but the rest of your points are pretty accurate.

If Liara is a romantic rival in ME1 Ashley will make a comment about Shepard going for the alien woman because he is under orders to "make nice with the bug-eyed monsters." I guess she means that Asari eyes always turn black when melding...but it's still a horrible line.

[Argolas]

Barquiel wrote...

AVPen wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

People don't call Ashley racist because of the bear-dog analogy. That's common sense. Of course the asari and the turians won't throw their fleets away in an futile attempt to retake Earth when their own worlds are also under attack. The council is absolutely right in ME3, Earth has no military or strategic significance that should have placed it at the highest priority (especially over planets like Thessia or Palaven). But she says a few things in ME1/2 which "could" be construed as racist...

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"
"I can't tell the aliens from the animals"

And "trust issues" are really no excuse for calling Liara a "bug eyed monster". I would describe her as a mild racist (at least in ME1/2, don't recall seeing evidence after that). She doesn't trust aliens and doesn't treat them equally simply because of their race.

I think the "bug-eyed monster" quote was in reference to the Rachni instead of Liara (although she does have big eyes, lol), but the rest of your points are pretty accurate.

If Liara is a romantic rival in ME1 Ashley will make a comment about Shepard going for the alien woman because he is under orders to "make nice with the bug-eyed monsters." I guess she means that Asari eyes always turn black when melding...but it's still a horrible line.

All of the above quotes except the last one are rather examples of Ashley being a very jealous person and not of her racism. She doesn't really have anything against Liara, she is even worried about her after Benezia's death.

[Cobretti ftw]

Ash is a pain, and Kaidan is even worse. Probably the worst character in the series. Nothing interesting about him whatsoever.

Ash is not so far behind though.


Never saved kaidan.. And i WOuld gladly choose a bucket of KFC chicken rather than ash....

[andy6915]

To anyone who says the "bugged eyed alien" line isn't racist, let me make a few minor changes to the quote.

"Make nice with the bug eyed black people."

Racist now? All I did was change aliens to black people, but that little change makes it much more apparent how bad that line is.

[o Ventus]

andy69156915 wrote...

"Make nice with the bug eyed black people."

I don't know if this makes me a racist, but I lol'd at this.

[AVPen]

Barquiel wrote...

AVPen wrote...

I think the "bug-eyed monster" quote was in reference to the Rachni instead of Liara (although she does have big eyes, lol), but the rest of your points are pretty accurate.

If Liara is a romantic rival in ME1 Ashley will make a comment about Shepard going for the alien woman because he is under orders to "make nice with the bug-eyed monsters." I guess she means that Asari eyes always turn black when melding...but it's still a horrible line.

Ah, then I never came across that quote since I never romanced Ashley and Liara together in ME1 - my canon Shepard romanced only Tali through the series, while my alternative MaleShep romanced Ashley in ME1 (and regretted it in ME3....) while I romanced Liara with one of my FemSheps.

Modifié par AVPen, 29 mars 2013 - 04:53 .

[eye basher]

i wish i could leave both of them in virmire.

[Supergamingginger]

I left Ash behind on Virmire because I thought that her dying on Virmire was quite poetic.