306 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

andy69156915 wrote...

@iakus

Oh now that's just mega-stupid. There's a whole world of difference between saying your not a fan of a certain type of pet, or food, or ideology then saying your not a fan of other human beings because of what race or sexual orientation they were born as. If you can't see the difference between "I hate soda" and "I hate Japs"... Then you are someone who's so clueless that your brain must have fallen out of your ass at some point.

Show me anywhere in any of the games where Ash says "I hate aliens"  I'll give you a hint:  there are zero occurences.  She does admit to hating politicians, does that make you feel better?

"I'm no fan of" =/= "I hate"

"I'm no fan of" can jsut as easily mean "I am indifferent to"

[andy6915]

"I'm no fan of" is just "I hate" with nicer wording. Or do you actually see a difference between "I'm no fan of blacks" and "I hate blacks"? Because they appear to mean the same damn thing to me.

[Ykulnu]

andy69156915 wrote...

"I'm no fan of" is just "I hate" with nicer wording. Or do you actually see a difference between "I'm no fan of blacks" and "I hate blacks"? Because they appear to mean the same damn thing to me.

Look at my posts f you want an answer.

[andy6915]

I did read your post. It wasn't worth responding to. After all, she says "I'm no fan of aliens" not "I'm no fan of alien governments". It's the difference between "I'm no fan of Japanese people" and "I'm no fan of Japan". Not being a fan of a country isn't racist, but disliking a race that isn't your own is. And Ashley only ever talks about the other species themselves, not their governments. So yeah, not worth responding to, it's very premise is in conflict with Ashley's own words.

[Barquiel]

She didn't say she's no fan of the council. That's something I could respect, even though I disagree with her views and I think the council was right in ME3...trying to retake Earth from the reapers at the beginning of the game would have been incredibly stupid....and futile.

She didn't say she's no fan of the Turian Hierarchy (which attacked humanity) either, that would be at least somewhat understandable.

She's no fan of "aliens". Every Asari, Turian, Salarian, Hanar, Elcor,... in the galaxy.

Modifié par Barquiel, 30 mars 2013 - 05:27 .

[andy6915]

@Barquiel

Exactly my point.

example:Personally? I dislike (I'm no fan of) the Asari government.

Not what did I just say? Did I say I dislike Asari or did I say I dislike their government? Their government. Now what does Ashley say she dislikes? Aliens, as in the actual species. Big difference.

[Iakus]

andy69156915 wrote...

"I'm no fan of" is just "I hate" with nicer wording. Or do you actually see a difference between "I'm no fan of blacks" and "I hate blacks"? Because they appear to mean the same damn thing to me.

Neither is especially complimentary.  But there is a difference.  Ash "not being a fan of aliens" simply means she's not a xenophile.  That she's not especially trusting of aliens.  Ash never, ever states she hates aliens.  She has clear, thought-out reasons to distrust alien governments and has shown on more than one occasion to trust and even befriend individual aliens.


And if you can't see that,  then i can't help you.  "not a fans" gonna "not a fan"

[Iakus]

Barquiel wrote...

She didn't say she's no fan of the council. That's something I could respect, even though I disagree with her views and I think the council was right in ME3...trying to retake Earth from the reapers at the beginning of the game would have been incredibly stupid....and futile.

She didn't say she's no fan of the Turian Hierarchy (which attacked humanity) either, that would be at least somewhat understandable.

She's no fan of "aliens". Every Asari, Turian, Salarian, Hanar, Elcor,... in the galaxy.

Or their governments.

She is demonstably not distrusting of every alien in the galaxy.

[Ykulnu]

andy69156915 wrote...

I did read your post. It wasn't worth responding to. After all, she says "I'm no fan of aliens" not "I'm no fan of alien governments". It's the difference between "I'm no fan of Japanese people" and "I'm no fan of Japan". Not being a fan of a country isn't racist, but disliking a race that isn't your own is. And Ashley only ever talks about the other species themselves, not their governments. So yeah, not worth responding to, it's very premise is in conflict with Ashley's own words.

Except it's not, and your empassioned ignorance is causing you to misinterperet my posts. Now you are falling back to literalism in regards to my points and extrapolating in regards to yours to suit your needs.

The galactice community at large has not made a good impression on her. That does not mean that she absolutely cannot take every interaction she has with a grain of salt but still treat them as equals. I'm sure that government officials during the Cold War weren't "fans" of the Russians, and distrusted them even more than Ashley does aliens. That doesn't mean they didn't see them as people. That doesn't mean that they couldn't treat them as people while still acting in line with what their experiences have taught them. 

Modifié par Ykulnu, 30 mars 2013 - 05:30 .

[andy6915]

If she's not a fan of alien GOVERNMENTS, then why not say exactly that? I said I'm no fan of the Asari governments a few posts ago, so I mean the actual government. Ashley however doesn't say government anywhere in her statement of dislike, she only mentions the species themselves. AGAIN... Big difference.

"I'm no fan of aliens" is her exact words, not "I'm no fan of alien governments/Council". I will judge her based on those exact words, not some interpretation of what I hope was her exact words.

[ScriptBabe]

I pick Kaidan because he seems to be the logical person to handle the nuke on Virmire, and they do an amazing job with him in ME3. He's a really interesting character, wise, humorous and in many ways the most well adjusted character in the games. Stable family life, he's made peace with what happened during his biotic training. And Sbarge is an amazing voice actor.

[Iakus]

andy69156915 wrote...

If she's not a fan of alien GOVERNMENTS, then why not say exactly that? I said I'm no fan of the Asari governments a few posts ago, so I mean the actual government. Ashley however doesn't say government anywhere in her statement of dislike, she only mentions the species themselves. AGAIN... Big difference.

"I'm no fan of aliens" is her exact words, not "I'm no fan of alien governments/Council". I will judge her based on those exact words, not some interpretation of what I hope was her exact words.

Because people, in moments of emotional stress or passion, don't spell out exactly what they mean, and go for short, potentially imprecise wording?  Just a thought.

[Iakus]

ScriptBabe wrote...

I pick Kaidan because he seems to be the logical person to handle the nuke on Virmire, and they do an amazing job with him in ME3. He's a really interesting character, wise, humorous and in many ways the most well adjusted character in the games. Stable family life, he's made peace with what happened during his biotic training. And Sbarge is an amazing voice actor.

If I could, I'd save both.  But in the end, I save Ash, because she's such a delighfully complicated person.  It's a shame ME3 turned her into such a quiet, inoffensive character.

[PwrdOff]

andy69156915 wrote...

If she's not a fan of alien GOVERNMENTS, then why not say exactly that? I said I'm no fan of the Asari governments a few posts ago, so I mean the actual government. Ashley however doesn't say government anywhere in her statement of dislike, she only mentions the species themselves. AGAIN... Big difference.

"I'm no fan of aliens" is her exact words, not "I'm no fan of alien governments/Council". I will judge her based on those exact words, not some interpretation of what I hope was her exact words.

Can you even picture Ash saying "well I'm no fan of the Council but individual aliens may be alright dependent on their specific personalities"?  She's a soldier, not a diplomat.

[andy6915]

You know what you're doing, Ashley defenders? You're taking her exact words and then ADDING things of your own to those words to try to make her sound less racist. You try to make up hidden meanings and ascribe intentions behind those words that aren't actually there in her wording, putting words in her mouth that she never says to further your argument. You do that because you know her actual exact words are damning. Your stance is intellectually dishonest, and I suspect you know that.

[andy6915]

@BNN999

Uh, yes I actually can see her saying "I'm no fan of the council". Ooh, that took so many more words and effort then saying aliens! Going by your logic, she's not just "not a diplomat" she's also "not very bright".

[Ykulnu]

andy69156915 wrote...

If she's not a fan of alien GOVERNMENTS, then why not say exactly that? I said I'm no fan of the Asari governments a few posts ago, so I mean the actual government. Ashley however doesn't say government anywhere in her statement of dislike, she only mentions the species themselves. AGAIN... Big difference.

"I'm no fan of aliens" is her exact words, not "I'm no fan of alien governments/Council". I will judge her based on those exact words, not some interpretation of what I hope was her exact words.

You're doing that literalism in regards to what I believe and extrapolation in regards to what you believe thing again.

It's a casual conversation. Verbal shorthand is common in such situations. If you really want that kind of specificity in casual conversations then you should also take issue with the fact that Banshees are referred to Asari and not Ardat Yakshi or many other short terms.

She in no way says that she hates the other species. You are extrapolating that statement by making her out to be likely hate-motivated when she really isn't. AGAIN, BioWare attempts to clarify this by when she condemns Terra Firma. I'm sure you don't see Kelly Chambers as a hateful person, although she is a member of an organization that actively seeks supremacy in the galaxy, simply because she's a "nice person" and makes that pathetic and shallow "dogs n cats" analogy. I'd wager that, even though Ashley is the MUCH lesser evil in this situation, you really don't like her because she's more upfront about it. 

Modifié par Ykulnu, 30 mars 2013 - 05:48 .

[Iakus]

andy69156915 wrote...

You know what you're doing, Ashley defenders? You're taking her exact words and then ADDING things of your own to those words to try to make her sound less racist. You try to make up hidden meanings and ascribe intentions behind those words that aren't actually there in her wording, putting words in her mouth that she never says to further your argument. You do that because you know her actual exact words are damning. Your stance is intellectually dishonest, and I suspect you know that.

Umm, you're the one translating "I'm no fan of' to "I hate" to make her sound more racist, to give her words a hidden meaning and ascribe intentions behind those words that aren't actually there.

You are, in fact, putting words inher mouth that she never says

[Ykulnu]

andy69156915 wrote...
putting words in her mouth that she never says to further your argument.

irony.

[Iakus]

andy69156915 wrote...

@BNN999

Uh, yes I actually can see her saying "I'm no fan of the council". Ooh, that took so many more words and effort then saying aliens! Going by your logic, she's not just "not a diplomat" she's also "not very bright".

She's also in the Terminus atm, where the Council holds no sway.

[andy6915]

When did I ever put words in her mouth? When I used her exact quote and then changed a word or 2? Riiiiigghht...

Oh right, it's you guys that tried saying that statements like "I'm no fan of homosexuals" isn't in ANY WAY bigoted. You know, because "I'm no fan of spicy food" obviously has the same meaning as saying you're not a fan of a specific race or sexual orientation.

I only need her exact quote to condemn her. You guys need her quote and about a dozen paragraphs for what she REALLY means to make your side's point.

[Ykulnu]

andy69156915 wrote...

When did I ever put words in her mouth? When I used her exact quote and then changed a word or 2? Riiiiigghht...

Oh right, it's you guys that tried saying that statements like "I'm no fan of homosexuals" isn't in ANY WAY bigoted. You know, because "I'm no fan of spicy food" obviously has the same meaning as saying you're not a fan of a specific race or sexual orientation.

I only need her exact quote to condemn her. You guys need her quote and about a dozen paragraphs for what she REALLY means to make your side's point.

If you can't see how "I'm no fan of homosexuals" and "I'm no fan of aliens" are two completely different things, then trying to get you to see reason is a lost cause in the first place. I'm done.

Modifié par Ykulnu, 30 mars 2013 - 05:54 .

[andy6915]

One is a race, one is a sexual orientation, saying you're "no fan of" or you "dislike" either makes you a bigot. Period. So no, I don't see how they're different things.

"I'm no fan of homos"

"I'm no fan of Japs"

Yep... Not seeing a difference.

[Phoenix_Fyre]

I may be on the minority here, but I like Ash and Kai equally

They just play off each other so well, and I base Virmire on who I'm romancing.

With Liara its tricky, because I always save the salarians, and who the VS is on that side makes the choice even more difficult

[Iakus]

andy69156915 wrote...

When did I ever put words in her mouth? When I used her exact quote and then changed a word or 2? Riiiiigghht...

Yes.  Exactly

Oh right, it's you guys that tried saying that statements like "I'm no fan of homosexuals" isn't in ANY WAY bigoted. You know, because "I'm no fan of spicy food" obviously has the same meaning as saying you're not a fan of a specific race or sexual orientation.

Provacative, yes.  Bigoted, not necessailly.

I only need her exact quote to condemn her. You guys need her quote and about a dozen paragraphs for what she REALLY means to make your side's point.

No, you need to change her quote around to sound more incendiary and, dare I say "hateful" than its original form.