471 réponses à ce sujet

[-TC1989-]

aphelion4 wrote...

Just out of curiosity how many pro full on nudity guys here would actually be okay with FULL ON MALE NUDITY as well? As in PENIS? Seems fair to me if you want boobs and vulva on your screen. If it's just female nipples you want, then whatever. 

As a straight male, I have no problem with it. Hell I saw it in GTA: LATD. Didn't bother me a bit. People talk about how nudity is wrong, and just distasteful, but don't mind killing people in games. That to me is more terrifying. It's honestly a lot more scary that our society doesn't have an issue with dismembering limbs, and seeing blood everywhere, but are just horrified if they see boobs, that is just wrong to me. And it's not that I'm foaming at the mouth waiting to see nudity either. But don't make a joke of a sex scene all clothed up, and make them humping passionately with their underwear on, it's just ridiculous. I'm more against there being anything sexual in the game, if they're not going to make it a mature thing. I'd rather them just kill the whole love scene altogether, or atleast just stick with fade to black, and say that's what it's going to be. I also agree that ME1 did it right, you got the gist of it, and it looked mature with camera angles.

Modifié par -TC1989-, 03 avril 2013 - 11:44 .

[Sylvianus]

-TC1989- wrote... I'm more against there being anything sexual in the game, if they're not going to make it a mature thing.

Absolutely. That's where fade to black becomes finally interesting. ( meaning it's better if I don't notice anything or don't care, than to be facepalmed. )

[Angrywolves]

shrugs. Then don't make the romances mandatory. That way the player who doesn't want any doesn't have to do them and we can dispense with the fade to black nonsense.

[Sylvianus]

Romance aren't mandatory.

[Fiacre]

Angrywolves wrote...

shrugs. Then don't make the romances mandatory. That way the player who doesn't want any doesn't have to do them and we can dispense with the fade to black nonsense.

...? But the romances aren't mandatory. And there are plenty of people who want to do the romances but also prefer a fade to black. (I certainly do. Even if they somehow made a perfectly animated and modeled and textured and what have you sex scene, chances are it'll end up being horrifically OOC for at least some of my characters. Like the Zev scene was with my Cousland. And that's a lot more immersion breaking to me and likely to lead to me faceplaming and going "No. Game. No. What are you doing." than any fade to black.)

[daaaav]

Fiacre wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

shrugs. Then don't make the romances mandatory. That way the player who doesn't want any doesn't have to do them and we can dispense with the fade to black nonsense.

...? But the romances aren't mandatory. And there are plenty of people who want to do the romances but also prefer a fade to black. (I certainly do. Even if they somehow made a perfectly animated and modeled and textured and what have you sex scene, chances are it'll end up being horrifically OOC for at least some of my characters. Like the Zev scene was with my Cousland. And that's a lot more immersion breaking to me and likely to lead to me faceplaming and going "No. Game. No. What are you doing." than any fade to black.)

Or why not make the whole damn game fade to black? Perhaps the way your character impaled that dark spawn was at just the wrong angle? Would that shatter your immersion?

Cinema came to the conclusion that nudity was not the societal horror it was thought to be and games should follow suit. 

[Angrywolves]

what ever. I won't bother to play the romances if they use fade to black. Not my preference.

[Sylvianus]

Yeah, there are a lot of people, especially female who assume that we would be bothered by full male nudity lol. What they don't get, is simply that it MAKES SENSE if the male character is showed naked since he is actually making love with his darling, naked too. Why would it be shocking in this case ? Do they expect that we scream in front of that during the sexual act ? ...

Consumers aren't responsible for the fear of showing penis in Media to be honest.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 avril 2013 - 01:04 .

[DragonAgeLegend]

Why is there even a thread about this? It has nothing to do with the actual game play, and so shouldn't even be thought upon.
I really don't even care what the hell they wear under their armour. Sick perverts.

[Fiacre]

daaaav wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

shrugs. Then don't make the romances mandatory. That way the player who doesn't want any doesn't have to do them and we can dispense with the fade to black nonsense.

...? But the romances aren't mandatory. And there are plenty of people who want to do the romances but also prefer a fade to black. (I certainly do. Even if they somehow made a perfectly animated and modeled and textured and what have you sex scene, chances are it'll end up being horrifically OOC for at least some of my characters. Like the Zev scene was with my Cousland. And that's a lot more immersion breaking to me and likely to lead to me faceplaming and going "No. Game. No. What are you doing." than any fade to black.)

Or why not make the whole damn game fade to black? Perhaps the way your character impaled that dark spawn was at just the wrong angle? Would that shatter your immersion?

Cinema came to the conclusion that nudity was not the societal horror it was thought to be and games should follow suit. 

Because that's totally an equivalent comparison. Yep, Cathal not stabbing that Darkspawn at just the right angle certainly bugged me just as much as him suddenly being proficient at the arts of sex when he didn't even really know that anal sex is a thing five minutes ago. Absolutely.

There's a difference between saying that nudity isn't a societal horror -- which it isn't, and neither is sex -- and unnecessarily taking away control from the player rregarding the characterization just to have the PC partake in that. I've no problem with including nudity -- be it NPCs or even the PC during the post sex conversations, and I have no problem with depicting sexual situations, as long as my PC doesn't partake in them. People don't all behave the same during it, and trying to make a one size fits all scene for all the different characters people play is pretty much impossible. Where this a game with a set protagonist? Go for it! But in a RPG that gives you a substantial amount of control over you characters personality? I'd rather be able to decide myself how that character acts during sex. And not have to roll my eyes at OOC sex scenes.

[Renmiri1]

daaaav wrote...


Or why not make the whole damn game fade to black? Perhaps the way your character impaled that dark spawn was at just the wrong angle? Would that shatter your immersion?

Cinema came to the conclusion that nudity was not the societal horror it was thought to be and games should follow suit. 

groan.....

You obviously skipped a few pages....

Impaled characters, combat , magic and explosions are part of modern gaming engines. Sex acts are not. So no, it is not the same. For movies it is the same to get characters to undress or to play swordfight. But lightsaber fight took ages BECAUSE THERE WAS NO FREELY AVAILABLE TECH.

George Lucas and Spielberg created entire new fighting weapoins and styles fron scratch. There is no GL / SP and Pixair for sex. Not yet, maybe you wanna try your hand at it.

The reason most modern games don't have good sex animations and good nude textures is simple. They would have to create it from scratch and spend money and time on that instead of on weapon / armor / story / combat balancing / level design. all to duplicate something that any web pr0n channel delivers 24 hours a day for free and done much more realistically because most of the time they use real people not 3D meshes like games use.

So no, it isn't the same thing and it doesn't cost the same and most of us realize that having a lot of resources spent on a 10 second scene that many will skip anyway is a waste of time.

If it was already part of the game engine, already there as most combat / bleeding / impaling /and physics it would be the same. But it aint. 

Because that's totally an equivalent comparison

IKR ?

Daaav just read back 2-3 pages if you want to be taken seriously. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 04 avril 2013 - 12:41 .

[daaaav]

Fiacre wrote...


Because that's totally an equivalent comparison. Yep, Cathal not stabbing that Darkspawn at just the right angle certainly bugged me just as much as him suddenly being proficient at the arts of sex when he didn't even really know that anal sex is a thing five minutes ago. Absolutely.

There's a difference between saying that nudity isn't a societal horror -- which it isn't, and neither is sex -- and unnecessarily taking away control from the player rregarding the characterization just to have the PC partake in that. I've no problem with including nudity -- be it NPCs or even the PC during the post sex conversations, and I have no problem with depicting sexual situations, as long as my PC doesn't partake in them. People don't all behave the same during it, and trying to make a one size fits all scene for all the different characters people play is pretty much impossible. Where this a game with a set protagonist? Go for it! But in a RPG that gives you a substantial amount of control over you characters personality? I'd rather be able to decide myself how that character acts during sex. And not have to roll my eyes at OOC sex scenes.

Allright, apologies, lets bring it down a little. Does this mean you are adverse to all cinematics and character development where you are not given direct control in role playing games?

I don't mind (and in some situations prefer) a story where I have a foundation on which to project my own persona. I am not playing these games as a carbon copy of myself, I am playing as a Cousland or as a Dwarven noble who already has a certain amount of pre determined characterisation. An absence of foundation is what your given in a game like Skyrim and it comes with a cost - shallow characterisation and story telling.

[daaaav]

Renmiri1 wrote...

daaaav wrote...


Or why not make the whole damn game fade to black? Perhaps the way your character impaled that dark spawn was at just the wrong angle? Would that shatter your immersion?

Cinema came to the conclusion that nudity was not the societal horror it was thought to be and games should follow suit. 

groan.....

You obviously skipped a few pages....

Impaled characters, combat , magic and explosions are part of modern gaming engines. Sex acts are not. So no, it is not the same. For movies it is the same to get characters to undress or to play swordfight. But lightsaber fight took ages BECAUSE THERE WAS NO FREELY AVAILABLE TECH.

George Lucas and Spielberg created entire new fighting weapoins and styles fron scratch. There is no GL / SP and Pixair for sex. Not yet, maybe you wanna try your hand at it.

The reason most modern games don't have good sex animations and good nude textures is simple. They would have to create it from scratch and spend money and time on that instead of on weapon / armor / story / combat balancing / level design. all to duplicate something that any web pr0n channel delivers 24 hours a day for free and done much more realistically because most of the time they use real people not 3D meshes like games use.

So no, it isn't the same thing and it doesn't cost the same and most of us realize that having a lot of resources spent on a 10 second scene that many will skip anyway is a waste of time.

If it was already part of the game engine, already there as most combat / bleeding / impaling /and physics it would be the same. But it aint. 

Because that's totally an equivalent comparison

IKR ?

Daaav just read back 2-3 pages if you want to be taken seriously. 

You are right about the technology differential and I am certainly not advocating for purpose built sex simulators...

I do however strongly believe that gaming must devote its efforts to more than simply delivering the same product with prettier graphics and updated combat mechanics for every generation. Dragon Age is essentially the same experience as Baldurs Gate with the exception of improved graphics and combat mechanics.

I would like Bioware to incorporate the characterisation and story telling potential currently being explored in games such as LA Noir and Deus Ex: HR where conversation and investigation are on par with combat as a story telling device and gameplay mechanic.

Edit: Yes, this requires significant investment in developing new modelling tools for facial and movement animation. Is this really a bad thing though?

Modifié par daaaav, 04 avril 2013 - 12:59 .

[Fiacre]

daaaav wrote...

Fiacre wrote...


Because that's totally an equivalent comparison. Yep, Cathal not stabbing that Darkspawn at just the right angle certainly bugged me just as much as him suddenly being proficient at the arts of sex when he didn't even really know that anal sex is a thing five minutes ago. Absolutely.

There's a difference between saying that nudity isn't a societal horror -- which it isn't, and neither is sex -- and unnecessarily taking away control from the player rregarding the characterization just to have the PC partake in that. I've no problem with including nudity -- be it NPCs or even the PC during the post sex conversations, and I have no problem with depicting sexual situations, as long as my PC doesn't partake in them. People don't all behave the same during it, and trying to make a one size fits all scene for all the different characters people play is pretty much impossible. Where this a game with a set protagonist? Go for it! But in a RPG that gives you a substantial amount of control over you characters personality? I'd rather be able to decide myself how that character acts during sex. And not have to roll my eyes at OOC sex scenes.

Allright, apologies, lets bring it down a little. Does this mean you are adverse to all cinematics and character development where you are not given direct control in role playing games?

I don't mind (and in some situations prefer) a story where I have a foundation on which to project my own persona. I am not playing these games as a carbon copy of myself, I am playing as a Cousland or as a Dwarven noble who already has a certain amount of pre determined characterisation. An absence of foundation is what your given in a game like Skyrim and it comes with a cost - shallow characterisation and story telling.

I'd prefer it be toned down as much as possible. I can live, for example, with my character having a jump scare at the broodmother -- even if he's usually stoic, he could simply be surprised (and seriously, it's a bloody broodmother <.<). I can live with him stabbing the Archdemon through the head, because it's in the heat of battle, and there's really not a lot of characterization that I can imagine would be screwed with.

My preference for fade to black -- and why I love the idea of being able to choose which emotions my character expresses during cutscenes -- is because sex -- and some other scenes, e.g. Hawke's siblings/mother dying, Anders blowing up the Chantry, etc. -- can have a lot more impact on characterization. With sex it's specifically the part where different people will behave very differently during it; my horndog mage won't have the same preferences and do the same things as my Cousland who left initiating actual sex up to Morrigan and was perfectly content with just kissing and spending time with her. Both genuinely loved her, but they were very different people. Both will also behave differently than my canon Warden who had a threesome with Zev and Isabela, asked for the surprise at the Pearl, happily seduced Dairren, and saw sex in part as something enjoyable but also something that he should "study", since it would be useful when marrying/could be potentially useful for politics. Which is very different from my ultra virginal Cousland who started out thinking that sex was something done between married people and didn't really know about how sex between men worked until Zev showed him. Having a cutscene just detracts from characterization for me there, and since the sex scene is not absoluetly necessary to progress the story, or even the romance -- sex being implied but not shown works as well, after all, and in Origin you could even refuse to have sex without ending the romance -- I'd rather not have it.

And since nothing else in the game stops me from characterizing them this way, I don't see why this should be part of that pre existing characterization just so there can be 20 seconds of watching the character models having sex.

(Incidentally, I think even Skyrim can faciliate some deep charcterization for the PC -- it's been very interesting playing a character so damaged that his first reaction to the whole dragonborn business was to run away, his first reaction to realizing that he's starting to see Skyrim as a home is to run and who only realizes that this doesn't work when he ends up doing Molag Bal's quest despite all intentions not to. And then backslides pretty soon after that realization. In fact, I'd say it's been more in depth than my first playthrough of KoA, despite KoA's more cinematic approach -- though perhaps that'll change now during my second playthrough of it.)

Also, I blame all typos on the fact that it's 3 am here <.<

Modifié par Fiacre, 04 avril 2013 - 01:12 .

[-TC1989-]

[/quote]

I'd prefer it be toned down as much as possible. I can leave, for example, with my character having a jump scare at the broodmother -- even if he's stoic, he could simply be surprised (and seriously, it's a bloody broodmother <.<) I can live with him stabbing the Archdemon through the head, because it's in the heat of battle, and there's really not a lot of characterization that I can imagine would be screwed with.

My preference for fade to black -- and why I love the idea of being able to choose which emotions my character expresses during cutscenes -- is because sex -- and some other scenes, e.g. Hawke's siblings/mother dying, Anders blowing up the Chantry, etc. -- can have a lot more impact on characterization. With sex it's specifically the part where different people will behave very differently during it; my horndog mage won't have the same preferences and do the same things as my Cousland who left initiating actual sex up to Morrigan and was perfectly content with just kissing and spending time with her. Both genuinely loved her, but they were very different people. Both will also behave differently than my canon Warden who had a threesome with Zev and Isabela, asked for the surprise at the Pearl, happily seduced Dairren, and saw sex in part as something enjoyable but also something that he should "study", since it would be useful when marrying/could be potentially useful for politics. Which is very different from my ultra virginal Cousland who started out thinking that sex was something done between married people and didn't really know about how sex between men worked until Zev showed him. Having a cutscene just detracts from characterization for me there, and since the sex scene is not absoluetly necessary to progress the story, or even the romance -- sex being implied but not shown works as well, after all, and in Origin you could even refuse to have sex without ending the romance -- I'd rather not have it.

And since nothing else in the game stops me from characterizing them this way, I don't see why this should be part of that pre existing characterization just so there can be 20 seconds of watching the character models having sex.

(Incidentally, I think even Skyrim can faciliate some deep charcterization for the PC -- it's been very interesting playing a character so damaged that his first reaction to the whole dragonborn business was to run away, his first rraction to realizing that he's starting to see Skyrim as ahome is to run and who only realized that this doesn't work when he end up doing Molag Bal's quest despite all intentions not to. And then backslides pretty soon after that realization. In fact, I'd say it's been more in depth than my first playthrough of KoA, despite KoA's more cinematic approach -- though perhaps that'll change now during my second playthrough of it.)
[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with a more prude type character, and having a more emotional relationship, and not being physical. I don't see that working for someone like an Isabela type LI, but I think you should be able to have a choice, and keep the romance intact. My problems mainly stem from the fact that, Bioware wants to distance themselves from being "that type" of game, and wanting it to be more clean, which is fine. But the fact they spend that time making actual love scenes, showing them having sex, but not naked, is just completely immature. If they are so against showing nudity, then fade to black is going to be the only option if they want to include some kind of sexual element to the relationships.

[Mark of the Dragon]

I think DA2s scenes overall failed to be anything special and could be done better.

[Renmiri1]

Not only different mains, but even on same main. Though I love Nutella, I can't eat it every single day.

Sex needs variety and fade to black gives you that variety through countless replays while set scenes would get... routine... pretty fast. A game with set cinematic for cutscenes is tolerable but variety in companion dialogs, enemies you face, etc is a lot more fun. We get back to having to dedicate a lot of resources to have several "flavors" of a sex scene just to make it worth playing more than once.

Is not the same as having better facial animation, again, because facial expressions and animations are something a lot of videogames use and the dev cost is therefore lowered because you can reuse a lot of what was done before and a lot of good game engines already include some of it. That said, the DA2 facial nuances are awesome and make the game a lot nicer, and I'm really glad Bioware spent time there instead of time making awkward 3D sex scenes.



Sex animations are not freely shared, at least not the good ones. Nexus modders do share some of it and that is why you get some freebie stuff there but game companies can't just use the work of a free-lance modder then charge for the game.

[Renmiri1]

Do I know how much work it takes to try to build something from scratch ?

You bet... This thing below only has the bones rigged wrong.. Looks cute, no ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 04 avril 2013 - 03:30 .

[Angrywolves]

fade to black certainly isn't the only option,although some people want to pretend that it is to justify their opinions as somehow being the only valid ones. The thought that Bioware has to clean themselves up, as expressed by one poster has yet to be proven imo. Some people don't want any romances, some people do but only it seems with the unrealistic fade to black limitation, some like me believe romance scenes can be tastefully done with creative camera angles, silhouettes , and other tricks, of photography , and of course some would like the game as explicit as possible. shrugs. We'll see which view prevails.

[Iakus]

Angrywolves wrote...

fade to black certainly isn't the only option,although some people want to pretend that it is to justify their opinions as somehow being the only valid ones. The thought that Bioware has to clean themselves up, as expressed by one poster has yet to be proven imo. Some people don't want any romances, some people do but only it seems with the unrealistic fade to black limitation, some like me believe romance scenes can be tastefully done with creative camera angles, silhouettes , and other tricks, of photography , and of course some would like the game as explicit as possible. shrugs. We'll see which view prevails.

What's so limiting about fade-to-black?  I'd say it's the least limiting, as the player can imagine just about anything going on during the black, from simple kissing to stuff too explicit for HBO.  Wherever your imagination takes you. Everybody wins.

Well, not those who really really want to see cgi naughty bits...

[ForceXev]

iakus wrote...

Angrywolves wrote...

fade to black certainly isn't the only option,although some people want to pretend that it is to justify their opinions as somehow being the only valid ones. The thought that Bioware has to clean themselves up, as expressed by one poster has yet to be proven imo. Some people don't want any romances, some people do but only it seems with the unrealistic fade to black limitation, some like me believe romance scenes can be tastefully done with creative camera angles, silhouettes , and other tricks, of photography , and of course some would like the game as explicit as possible. shrugs. We'll see which view prevails.

What's so limiting about fade-to-black?  I'd say it's the least limiting, as the player can imagine just about anything going on during the black, from simple kissing to stuff too explicit for HBO.  Wherever your imagination takes you. Everybody wins.

Well, not those who really really want to see cgi naughty bits...

I could also imagine my character slaying enemies, but that doesn't mean I want the game to fade to black instead of showing a cinematic kill cutscene.  I like Bioware's cinematic story-telling approach.  I like cutscenes, whether it's dialogue with player-input, or a big combat scene, or a love scene.  To me fading a love scene to black is no different than fading-to-black any other cutscene, such as a dialogue or a combat scene.  It's part of the story, a very important part I'd say, and I think it's cheap to leave it out. 

And to be clear, I don't want to see cgi naughty bits.  That seems to be how people dismiss any argument in favor of showing love scenes -- "oh you just want to see boobs."  No.  It is entirely possible to have a nice, mature love scene without showing anything naughty.  Bioware has done it before in Mass Effect, I don't see why they can't manage it in Dragon Age.

[Nightdragon8]

you know what gets me.... the fact that on the internet there is PLENTY of FREE pron on it... and yet people want more nudity in the game. Also use your imagination people... you can't tell me that none of you have 'that kind" of imagination at all...

leave the fade to black, just allow us the option to make out with LI at any time like in DA:O

[Hillbillyhat]

ForceXev wrote...
I could also imagine my character slaying enemies, but that doesn't mean I want the game to fade to black instead of showing a cinematic kill cutscene.  I like Bioware's cinematic story-telling approach.  I like cutscenes, whether it's dialogue with player-input, or a big combat scene, or a love scene.  To me fading a love scene to black is no different than fading-to-black any other cutscene, such as a dialogue or a combat scene.  It's part of the story, a very important part I'd say, and I think it's cheap to leave it out. 

And to be clear, I don't want to see cgi naughty bits.  That seems to be how people dismiss any argument in favor of showing love scenes -- "oh you just want to see boobs."  No.  It is entirely possible to have a nice, mature love scene without showing anything naughty.  Bioware has done it before in Mass Effect, I don't see why they can't manage it in Dragon Age.

That isn't even remotely equivalent. Showing your character actually kill someone in a cinematic is very different than showing a romance scene. In game you kill people a lot through simple gameplay and skipping a cinematic would simply seem silly. The love scene is a very small part of the actual romance, and the romance is usually a rather small part of the game anyway.

Just fading to black is superior than showing the full sexual act which is pointless. Bioware has never not fade to black period. They have done it in every love scene. Sure they have shown some stuff which is basically some making out and groping, but they fade to black. This is just a argument between fading to black when they start kissing or fading to black a bit later in the act.   

[nightscrawl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wasn't DA2 primarily fading to black as well?

While I prefer the "fade to black" approach I'm not sure it's fair to use DA2 as an example. If Merrill got an underwear scene because there were already undressed female elf models to use, while the other three LIs didn't because their own unique bodies would have required more work -- thus leading to the assumption that lack of resources was the culprit here, please correct if this is not accurate -- then it's not a fair comparison.

If DA2 had been given more time and resources, would the decision still have been made to show Merrill undressed and not the others? If the answer is "yes," then I can respect that as a design decision; as I said, I prefer the "fade to black" scenes over the sex scene from DAO. If the answer is "no," I think it's worth exploring because then one is left to wonder what kind of scenes we would have had, given the time and resources; similar to DAO is the logical assumption.

When it comes to DA2 and some of its issues, there is the assumption by many players that lack of resources contributed to some of them, rather than them being a purposeful design decision. In some cases, I think it actually would be helpful to know which were design decisions, even if they didn't work out well, and which were the result of lack of zots. Obviously, reused maps is a result of deficient resources, but sex scenes can go either way.