44 réponses à ce sujet

[EthanDirtch]

I just wanted to get an idea if I was the only one who ever agonized over certain decisions.

The most recent example of my 'agony'  was Ser Cauthrien. I defeated her at the Arl of Denerim's estate (it took awhile and a lot of potions...). Since then, however, I've just sorta groaned about it.

On the one hand, it was within the 'character' of my main person (Lyene, a rogue) to fight hard for her freedom as she once belonged to Denerim's Alienage. And, also, I've already allowed myself to get caught in a previous playthrough with Marus (who is more of your typical paladin type).

On the other hand, the Summer Sword doesn't do anything for me as I have Yuusaris...and even then, I don't use two-handed warriors in my main four, so it doesn't even matter. And then there's the fact that I skip over the breakout.

Back to the first hand, though, I could just keep going as this is a path I had not taken.

But, once again on the other hand, the breakout was enjoyable (and I could also take another path in breaking myself out rather than waiting to be rescued).

First hand, again, I don't like Anora so when I chose to fight her actions gave me more reason to hate her >_>

bleh, the agony! It's not like there's good loot inside Drakon, but I do miss out on some dialogue and general fun...



Anyway, the purpose of this thread--if it doesn't already exist elsewhere--is to dicuss decisions that make you want to redo it, no matter what kind of character you're trying to play as. What are some decisions you guys agonized over?

[Creature 1]

I didn't agonize over Cauthrien--my first round was "To the death!" (then "Oh, I didn't have to do that?"). My second I just turned off potion use and ultimately purposefully lost after killing her.



I agonized over the Ritual on my first play-through. I also agonized over making Alistair king or not. I did a lot of agonizing over unlocking blood mage on my most recent play-through, because I was unable to intimidate the demon into doing exactly as I liked and had to make a concession I didn't want to make.



Otherwise the game has been pretty agony free. Except for the constant dying, of course.

[Joshd21]

Welcome to the Club. I considered making myself King, when I came to my senses and put down I needed to track Morrgian. So in order for Anora not to exact revenge on me for killing her dad.



I pursuaded to put her on the throne with allister, did the dark ritual. Being dead is never fun.

[Freckles04]

The first time I played, the decision of who to sacrifice at Redcliffe. Killing Connor felt so wrong, but it was the path I was being pointed to, by Alistair, Teagan, etc. Blood magic = evil, killing a boy = evil...so which is less evil? Between those two choices, neither was good. I didn't realize on my first playthrough that I could go to the Tower and get the mages' help without penalty. Now that I know that, I can't NOT choose that path. It feels so wrong to sacrifice Isolde or Connor. Metagaming, yeah, but I can't help it.

Before I came to these boards, I didn't even know it was possible to spare Loghain. I had Alistair duel Loghain at the Landsmeet during my first playthrough, so his head was removed by default. After i discovered that you could spare and recruit Loghain, but lose Alistair in the process, I debated whether or not I would do it. I, personally, love  Alistair's character, for all his flaws (especially because of them), so it was an agonizing decision to make. I've only spared Loghain once, and I couldn't play through the end with him when I did. I ended up reloading the Landsmeet and killing him.

And the decision on whom will break you out of Fort Drakon is monumental. I mean...do you want to laugh at Zevran and Oghren's Broma Brothers antics, or Wynne and Morrigan's attempt to be Chantry sisters? Or Sten and Dog bluffing their way through? Talk about agonizing!

Modifié par Freckles04, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:58 .

[Gilsa]

I always agonize over Landsmeet. I know that's a boring example, but I'd have given anything to know what Duncan would have done in that position. Loghain was reprehensible, but the Blight was the most important thing and Riordan's suggestion of making him a Grey Warden made sense on many levels. I'm basically trying to decide between the best way to defeat the Blight versus taking care of my troop. If anyone has suggestions on where I can find more background information on Duncan, I'd love to know.

Modifié par Gilsa, 14 janvier 2010 - 08:04 .

[EthanDirtch]

Yeah, the end of the Landsmeet is a toughie. On my first playthrough I really wanted to stay bound to the Grey Warden code of not taking any titles or lands, to enforce that Alistair belongs to the Grey Wardens. But then it wasn't really an option to allow Anora to take the throne as it involves leaving Loghain alive. As for recruiting him, I might do so as another character, but only if there was a way to ensure that Loghain takes the final strike. This way, Loghain is 'redeemed', so the morale of Ferelden stays firm with their hero still in high regard, all the while allowing me to live, and allowing Alistair to rule. I'll simply have to find out about all this in a future playthrough.



Back to Cauthrien: I guess I should just move forward and forget about reloading for now. My Lyene is a fighter; she allowed herself to get caught once before, and it was not going to happen again. Even Alistair encouraged fighting rather than submitting.

[haroldhardluck]

Wanting to re-play the game to re-do a decision is a mark of a very good game. I have no regrets over any decision since I know I will replay this game to see what happens the other way. Eventually I suppose I will replay the game one last time to get the perfect combination of decisions. So far these are the siginificant decisions I foundt...

1. Getting Alistair on the throne generates better endings for Ferelden than just Anora.  However getting them to marry seems to be the optimal choice.

2. Behlen is the better choice for king of Orzammar as his reforms improves the lot of all dwarves while Harrowmont just continues the decline of the dwarves.

3. Losing Morrigan for the final battle makes it more difficult unless your PC is also a mage. Two mages in the party makes the final battles much easier. OTOH it allows Loghain to sacrifice himself if you let him live in the Landsmeet. I would find the baby option more interesting if the developers incoporate it in a sequel. Loghain almost certainly refuses to sleep with Morrigan. So basically it is kill Loghain and have Alistair rule alone or spare him, lose Morrigan but get the best ending for Ferelden. I am still uncertain as to which choise is preferable.

4. I always sided with the mages as they are much more sympathetic than the templars.

5. I always sided with Caridain as Branka is clearly off her rocker.

6. I knew there had to be a way to save both children even thought the developers made that the hardest option to find. The key is to spare as many people as I could the first time through as you do not know will turn out to be useful later on. The second time, I killed all those who deserved it.

The bottom line is the quick save is your friend as it allows you to try out different choices in many cases.

Harold

[EthanDirtch]

Oh I know, the quick save is indeed divine (as is generally being able to save anywhere at anytime outside combat). It's just that I try not to do that so that I have things to look forward to when I replay.

[Zecele]

I didn't have an issue killing Cauthrien the first time...especially since she called me a churl and Arl Howe (whom i despise) my better. But then out of curiosity I did the jailbreak the second time to see if there was any loot in Fort Drakon and was mildly surprised to receive an apology from Cauthrien that time.



I can't find it in myself to kill her in future playthroughs knowing that she has the capacity to see the error of her ways. Well at least not with my goodly type NPC's.



The ending/landsmeet is by far my biggest decision snag. I like Alistair and use him heavily in all my parties. He's sort of the same as Bastila was for me in KOTR 1 in that they were so much more involved with the main story than the other party members that I always had him along.



Loghain becoming a Grey Warden and sacrificing himself in the final battle with Alistair as king strikes me as the happiest ending. No deal with Morrigan, everyone lives and Loghain redeems himself. But, I twist over it because I hate losing Alistair.

I wonder what Duncan would do

I'm pretty confident that Duncan would allow Loghain to serve in the Grey Wardens. Duncan struck me as a practical type that would be more worried about fielding good warriors against the blight than holding grudges.

[keesio74]

Hardest decisions for me:

-Bhelen or Harrowmont?

-Anora or Alistair?

-Loghain or Alistair?

-Morrigan or Leliana?



I actually didn't find the Ser Cauthrien surrender very hard when one of the options mentioned how it would look better in Landsmeet if I did surrender.

[SusanStoHelit]

Different choices are agonising for different reasons.



Bhelen vs Harrowmont: this is tough because it requires you to metagame (which I detest doing) - those who say Bhelen is better say so because they know it's better for the dwarves in the long run - but my characters don't know that. It's difficult or impossible to make that choice based on what characters in the game know.



Alistair vs Anora: If better ruler is the only basis of the decision, then Alistair is best (imo), and I detest Anora anyway. But, if you have a female pc, and you're romancing Alistair, that isn't the only consideration. If you're a human noble - no problem, rule together. If you're not, well that's where the agony comes in.



Alistair vs Loghain: Not really agonising - Alistair every time. But I keep thinking I should try Loghain, not just for the achievement but also to experience everything the game has to offer. So with each character I agonise over whether I can do it this time, choose Loghain, so far I haven't been able to.



Brother Burkel: An unimportant minor quest, yes? But nevertheless a difficult one for me and my characters. I believe in religious freedom, so allowing him into Orzammar is a good thing. But - I don't believe in proselytising, and I especially dislike almost everything about the Chantry, so allowing him in is a bad thing.



Ruck: I agonise over whether to tell his mother he's alive or not. And I agonise over whether to kill him or not.

[Sarielle]

I don't agonize because I go into a game with a very clear idea of what kind of personality my character has -- probably since I use the same couple of characters in most RPGs I play. So I always know what they would or would not do in a situation, and I just go with that regardless.

EDIT: IE, Sarielle tells the Crows they're laughably off base if they think she's an assassin, because she wouldln't do that kind of work. I missed out on quests but doesn't bother me.

Modifié par Sarielle, 14 janvier 2010 - 09:41 .

[Cuuniyevo]

I'm mostly with Sarielle on this one; I get into character and do as they would do. However, that occasionally means agonising over decisions because my characters do not always have the answers to certain situations. For instance, my Elven mage had a bit of a hard time with the Brecilian questline. Actually, there were quite a few agonising decisions to make during my Elven mage playthrough, especially in his love life. As far as meta-gaming goes, I very deliberately set such thoughts aside while playing, because it's important to me that my character only know things that they would actually know. For instance, during my first playthrough, I was actually quite surprised that the game shows cutscenes of certain events and conversations that your character was not present for, and I purposefully ignored their content because of it. As such, when it came time to meet Zevran, Nahi killed him without hesitation, because from his perspective, this was just one more bandit trying to kill him (never having heard of the Crows, since he was a Dwarf). I, personally, agonised for a couple seconds about it, because I really wanted to meet and speak with him, but he gave Nahi no reason to do so.

Also, I never load a save to take back dialogue unless it was an accidental button press or something like that. Sure, a re-do might be nice now and then, but I feel it would negate the emotional impact of the decisions your character makes.

[Xetirox]

[quote]SusanStoHelit wrote...

Different choices are agonising for different reasons.

Bhelen vs Harrowmont: this is tough because it requires you to metagame (which I detest doing) - those who say Bhelen is better say so because they know it's better for the dwarves in the long run - but my characters don't know that. It's difficult or impossible to make that choice based on what characters in the game know.
[/quote]
Not quite, though you do have to do a little bit of snooping, both by talking to people, and parsing what news the two criers anounce. Gives you a few clues that Bhelen might be more sympathetic to the lower castes, that he seems to be in favor of some radical, if unpopular, change, and that he appears to be gearing up for war. I kind of flip-flopped on the issue myself, but that last point was pretty much the deciding factor my character used in picking him over Harrowmont. The politics and society of Orzammar is not his problem, fighting the Darkspawn is, and between the two, Bhelen sounded like the better candidate for that overall. And I realized I made the right decision choosing him after finally speaking to him, when he pretty much said first thing the Blight was a serious threat he had every intention of dealing with.
[/quote]

Anyway, some agonizing decisions for me...

-The Anvil of the Void. On one hand, siding with Branka sounds like it would give me access to a powerful army of Golems that would do wonders in the war against the Blight, and while we're at it, perhaps gives the Dwarves more of a fighting chance in the Deep Roads, reclaim terriitory, and really drive back the Darkspawn. On the other, I didn't ****ing trust that **** for a second. If she was than willing to sacrifice her entire house to get what she wanted, doom the women of her clan to a fate worse than death, and even manipulate me, what exactly is going to stop her from doing anything else to me after she reclaims the Anvil? Would she turn me and my companions into Golems? Wouldn't put it past her. And if she's been here for two years, how exactly has she been sustaining herself? Wouldn't be surprised if she had been eating Darkspawn meat, giving me even less reason to trust her. Between Branka and Caradin, the latter was a hell of a lot more reasonable and trustworthy, and just to make things a little easier, Shale was with me at the time.

-Killing Flemeth. Now, I knew Flemmy had some ulterior motive for helping me, both in keeping the treaties safe and saving Alistair and I from Ostagar, and at the time, I would have rather have never found out what it was. But the fact of the matter is that without her, I'd be up a certain river without a paddle; betraying her just felt...wrong. But by not betraying her, then I effectively betray my ally and comrade, Morrigan. But at the same time, I don't fully trust Morrigan either; I always had a distinct feeling she was manipulating me, and that her claims about Flemeth's intention to possess her were not entirely honest (it's not like anyone else can read the Black Grimoire and confirm it).

-The Dark Ritual. Well, the good thing about this decision meant that I no longer needed to regret killing Flemeth, since I now potentially prevented her from having a hand in it. But now I'm at another nasty crossroad. I was more than willing to sacrifice myself to kill the Archdemon, but if I did not go through with this, I would lose my mage and make killing the beast that much more difficult (Wynne was not much of an option for replacement; I built her up too defensively, and she ended up being mostly worthless for my playstyle). But by going through with it, then I potentially only delay the Blight, not outright stop it, as there's a lot to be uncertain as to what the nature of the ritual entails, and how honest Morrigan is being about it.

[haroldhardluck]

SusanStoHelit wrote...
Bhelen vs Harrowmont: this is tough because it requires you to metagame (which I detest doing) - those who say Bhelen is better say so because they know it's better for the dwarves in the long run - but my characters don't know that. It's difficult or impossible to make that choice based on what characters in the game know.

There are clues as to which is better if you talk to various NPCs standing around. The codices make it clear that the dwarves are in decline. Many bystanders clearly state that Behlen is a reformer trying to change the system. Behlen was my choice the first time through and seeing what Harrowmont did in a re-play made it even clearer that Behlen is the better choice. Neither side is clean. Harrowmont uses blackmail to get votes. Behlen falsifies documents.

Alistair vs Anora: If better ruler is the only basis of the decision, then Alistair is best (imo), and I detest Anora anyway. But, if you have a female pc, and you're romancing Alistair, that isn't the only consideration. If you're a human noble - no problem, rule together. If you're not, well that's where the agony comes in.

Alistair as king always made sense even if my PC was female and romanced him. I just think back to Rick's decision at the end of Casablanca. What can be more romantic?

Alistair vs Loghain: Not really agonising - Alistair every time. But I keep thinking I should try Loghain, not just for the achievement but also to experience everything the game has to offer. So with each character I agonise over whether I can do it this time, choose Loghain, so far I haven't been able to.

While a live Loghain redeems himself in death, he is definitely someone who is best when dead. His problem is an arrogance so huge that he cannot admit to making mistakes until you stomp his face into the mess he made. He is the very embodiment of "hubris" and will always be trouble as long as he lives.

Brother Burkel: An unimportant minor quest, yes? But nevertheless a difficult one for me and my characters. I believe in religious freedom, so allowing him into Orzammar is a good thing. But - I don't believe in proselytising, and I especially dislike almost everything about the Chantry, so allowing him in is a bad thing.

Do you dislike the charity and relief work the Chantry does? How about their quest board offering rewards for helping out people? It is very obvious that helping people is one of the major tasks of the Chantry. Just listen to the casual conversations between NPCs about how much work is being done to help the refugees in Lothering,  However it is also obvious what the Chantry is supposed to be and the game is clearly pushing all the emotional buttons people have about the real thing to make the gamers schizophrenic about the Chantry.

Ruck: I agonise over whether to tell his mother he's alive or not. And I agonise over whether to kill him or not.

This was very clear to me. Let Ruck live and lie to his mother. The key is Wynne approves of this action. She is the moral compass for the PC in the game. If you want to play good, anything that she approves is good. Anything she disapproves is bad.

Harold

[LaztRezort]

haroldhardluck wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...
Bhelen vs Harrowmont: this is tough because it requires you to metagame (which I detest doing) - those who say Bhelen is better say so because they know it's better for the dwarves in the long run - but my characters don't know that. It's difficult or impossible to make that choice based on what characters in the game know.

There are clues as to which is better if you talk to various NPCs standing around. The codices make it clear that the dwarves are in decline. Many bystanders clearly state that Behlen is a reformer trying to change the system. Behlen was my choice the first time through and seeing what Harrowmont did in a re-play made it even clearer that Behlen is the better choice. Neither side is clean. Harrowmont uses blackmail to get votes. Behlen falsifies documents.

This, and I'd add that having Zevran along gives you even more convincing arguments for choosing Bhelen (or, at leats, not choosing Harrowmont).  You should try taking him along to Orzammar next time, if you haven't already.

[haroldhardluck]

Xetirox wrote...
-Killing Flemeth..

For me the decision was easy. Morrigan was directly helping me. Flemeth was not. When it came to deceptions, while Morrigan was not telling me everything, Flemeth was hiding even more. The game makes an effort to coordinate facial expressions and body language with dialogue. In many cases it shows that Morrigan was the victim of a rather abusive childhood. Which is more reason to believe her over Flemeth.

-The Dark Ritual.

I found the ritual intriguing. I hope very much that it is not wasted and the consequences will show up in the future. Basically my gut instinct was to do it.

Harold

[Gimmemocha]

My human noble picked Bhelen without metagaming. He's of the bloodline, therefore he should rule. What his father told Harrowmont we only know because that's what Harrowmont says he said and c'mon. Not exactly an unbiased source.



My HN, though, was very much a believer in the whole feudal system. She also put Alistair on the throne (since he's of the blood), and she refused to join the Grey Wardens forcing Duncan to pull that Right of Conscription crap. For all she knew, she was the last Cousland and that was her primary duty. If Fergus hadn't shown up at the end, her in-my-head epilogue would have ended with her leaving the Grey Wardens to take her place as Teyrna.



Of course, she ended up Princess Consort so that didn't suck.



But the one I always agonize over is Landsmeet. I'm also in the camp who wants someday to create a character who wouldn't lop Loghain's head off, but so far he's died every time. And the fallout from Landsmeet. By the time I've decided if Alistair is going to be king or not, should he marry Anora or not, I have to choose whether or not to take Morrigan up on her offer. I'm about 50/50 on that one so far.



I sometimes hesitate over Vaughn. Kill him or leave him there? Sometimes I kill him in case another Arl of Denerim gets appointed and someone finds him in the cell and lets him out. Sometimes I leave him to rot just so I can pop back by on my way out and mock him a little.

[Elvhen Veluthil]

You folks must have been kids back then, but in the really epic games (BG), there wasn't any hard decision to make. You either was good or evil (neutral for the gloomy Sundays). And since you knew what you were, there wasn't any trouble making choices. If a game is giving you a hard time making choices, well, it's falling short in its expectation to be an epic game. There are only two ways to get epic, epic good or epic evil (Champion of Valor or Lord of Darkness). You cannot get epic by choosing, destiny is a mysterious thing indeed.

[Joseph Silver]

Hm... My first character was called Lelouch, and I roleplayed him much like Lelouch in Code Geass. Basically a Heroic Sociopath. I sacrificed Isolde and Connor to gain access to blood magic, and got declared the Champions of Redcliffe for my efforts.



All hail Lelouch!

[Sarielle]

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

You folks must have been kids back then, but in the really epic games (BG), there wasn't any hard decision to make. You either was good or evil (neutral for the gloomy Sundays). And since you knew what you were, there wasn't any trouble making choices. If a game is giving you a hard time making choices, well, it's falling short in its expectation to be an epic game. There are only two ways to get epic, epic good or epic evil (Champion of Valor or Lord of Darkness). You cannot get epic by choosing, destiny is a mysterious thing indeed.

I completely disagree. Black and white morality is hardly compelling.

[Leg_lamp]

The first time through the game:



I was troubled in the Mage Origin, about whether or not to help Jowan, or cooperate with the authorities. Neither decision seemed like it would end well, and I totally agonized over it - and this was just the beginning of the game!



I also didn't know which Dwarf to make king either, there just wasn't enough information to glean from the citizens of Orzrammar. I ended up making Harrowmount king, only because of the man in Tapster's Tavern said he thought he would be a better candidate. Big mistake though. : )



The worst decision for me though, was whether or not to kill Flemeth - she gave back the treaties, saved your life at Ostagar, and gave you Morrigan. Flemeth seemed much more intelligent than Morrigan also, and Morrigan constantly disapproved of everything. I did end up killing Flemeth, and felt haunted by the decision until the end of the game (then I felt better).



Anora didn't backstab my character at all on the first playthrough. Because I didn't harden Alistair, he kept stating that he didn't want to be king. So this wasn't a hard decision for me.



I didn't initally agonize about the Dark Ritual, until later playthroughs when I knew what the consequences of this decision would be. : )

[Maria Caliban]

Only the anvil of the void, and even then it was more intellectual than emotional. Part of me wonders if I'll ever experience 'agony' in an RPG. Well, the conversations in FO3, but that's a different type of agony.

[Elvhen Veluthil]

Sarielle wrote...

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

You folks must have been kids back then, but in the really epic games (BG), there wasn't any hard decision to make. You either was good or evil (neutral for the gloomy Sundays). And since you knew what you were, there wasn't any trouble making choices. If a game is giving you a hard time making choices, well, it's falling short in its expectation to be an epic game. There are only two ways to get epic, epic good or epic evil (Champion of Valor or Lord of Darkness). You cannot get epic by choosing, destiny is a mysterious thing indeed.

I completely disagree. Black and white morality is hardly compelling.

Playing a game as a realist is the worst way to do it. That's what I believe at least.

[StaticSilence]

Cauthrien bested me the first time, by just 10 hitpoints, too!- so I ended up in prison.

However, when she confronted me outside the landsmeet, you can clearly see her trust in Loghain is waivering. I intimidated her until she stepped aside. Interesting thing is, as she steps aside she comments that loghain used to have such resolve as I have shown her.


@Sarielle "I completely disagree. Black and white morality is hardly compelling."

I agree. Bioshock is a great example of that. The ending was truly un-epic, and the retarded simplicity of the black/white "morality" ending was insulting & deflating to me, the gamer.

@Elvhen "Playing a game as a realist is the worst way to do it. That's what I believe at least."

I completely disagree with that.   Navigating a game like it's real life means the game world itself has you emotionall/personally invested in it.  This is a sign of excellent game design- compelling and thought-provoking.   

Modifié par StaticSilence, 15 janvier 2010 - 01:04 .