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Agonizing over Decisions


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#26
Sarielle

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Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

You folks must have been kids back then, but in the really epic games (BG), there wasn't any hard decision to make. You either was good or evil (neutral for the gloomy Sundays). And since you knew what you were, there wasn't any trouble making choices. If a game is giving you a hard time making choices, well, it's falling short in its expectation to be an epic game. There are only two ways to get epic, epic good or epic evil (Champion of Valor or Lord of Darkness). You cannot get epic by choosing, destiny is a mysterious thing indeed.


I completely disagree. Black and white morality is hardly compelling.


Playing a game as a realist is the worst way to do it. That's what I believe at least.


Seriously?

Not trying to be an ass but all good or all bad feel trite as hell to me, and I can't relate to or care about the character in any way. Having flaws in a mostly good person or some good points in a mostly bad make the character much more believable, imo.

Happily, we can both play the way we enjoy in DA:O though. ^_^

#27
errant_knight

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The hardest decisions for me were/are Morrigan's request re: Flemeth, and the High Dragon. One that bothers me, but where you have no choice, is taking care of Jarvia's crew. It's not like they had any options.

#28
Elvhen Veluthil

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Sarielle wrote...

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

You folks must have been kids back then, but in the really epic games (BG), there wasn't any hard decision to make. You either was good or evil (neutral for the gloomy Sundays). And since you knew what you were, there wasn't any trouble making choices. If a game is giving you a hard time making choices, well, it's falling short in its expectation to be an epic game. There are only two ways to get epic, epic good or epic evil (Champion of Valor or Lord of Darkness). You cannot get epic by choosing, destiny is a mysterious thing indeed.


I completely disagree. Black and white morality is hardly compelling.


Playing a game as a realist is the worst way to do it. That's what I believe at least.


Seriously?

Not trying to be an ass but all good or all bad feel trite as hell to me, and I can't relate to or care about the character in any way. Having flaws in a mostly good person or some good points in a mostly bad make the character much more believable, imo.

Happily, we can both play the way we enjoy in DA:O though. ^_^


The flaws are only possible to be visible to a well defined character, good or evil. A character that is thinking in every situation what to do hasn't any chance to feel that flaw you are talking about. Thinking if you'll save a person's life or sacrifice him to get a specialization is not right imo, that's not roleplaying. You should be sure about what to do, depending on your playing style.

I wouldn't agree more with you about having the freedom to play the game the way you want, but I have the impression that there are no choices in the game to get epic good or epic evil. You just have to choose every time the outcome that you think is the best and get along until the end. And even the end isn't epic in any way. This game can't get epic. Maybe when all the DLC, expansions and sequels are released. Not now though. Peace :)

#29
Sarielle

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Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

 Thinking if you'll save a person's life or sacrifice him to get a specialization is not right imo, that's not roleplaying. You should be sure about what to do, depending on your playing style.


Uh...who said anything about metagaming?

My point is that all good or all evil characters are static and boring.

Let's put it this way. If you haven't played the City Elf beginning, there is a decision where you can stick it to somebody who is a collossal bastard, or get something out of it for yourself AND save your community from recrimination.

That to me is a tough decision if your character is trying to do the "right thing," for instance.

You may also play a character devoted to duty...the Grey Warden motto says only "victory" in war, not "victory if you can also do the right thing." The point is, how far will your character go to win? At what point does duty outweigh other moral decisions? etc. Plenty of tough decisions when your character isn't a total goody two-shoes or the campy cartoon villian who laughs maniacally and explains his plans of being evil for evil's sake.

I wouldn't agree more with you about having the freedom to play the game the way you want, but I have the impression that there are no choices in the game to get epic good or epic evil. You just have to choose every time the outcome that you think is the best and get along until the end. And even the end isn't epic in any way. This game can't get epic. Maybe when all the DLC, expansions and sequels are released. Not now though. Peace :)


I guess I don't get what you're saying. What's this about "choosing what you think is best"? I mean...isn't that what all RPing is? Choosing what your character thinks is best? Kill a kid to end an evil, sacrifice someone else to end an evil, try a work around that may let the evil spread...? I can see some vivid characters doing any of them without being textbook goodies or textbook villians.

EDIT: There are also several situations where it's obvious you're being manipulated by/lied to by both sides...and you have to try to figure out who to throw your lot in with. Which I would consider a tough decision no matter how good or evil you are.

Modifié par Sarielle, 15 janvier 2010 - 02:08 .


#30
Xetirox

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haroldhardluck wrote...
For me the decision was easy. Morrigan was directly helping me. Flemeth was not. When it came to deceptions, while Morrigan was not telling me everything, Flemeth was hiding even more. The game makes an effort to coordinate facial expressions and body language with dialogue. In many cases it shows that Morrigan was the victim of a rather abusive childhood. Which is more reason to believe her over Flemeth.

Keep in mind, saving the PC and Al was Flemeth's idea, not Morrigan's, and Morrigan was only with you (initially) at her mother's behest. And though Morrigan is the product of Flemeth's upbringing, which makes her the more sympathetic of the two, she still fully subscribes to her mother's beliefs; whether or not Flemeth had any sinister plans for her daughter, killing her for power is the kind of thing you would expect Morrigan to do given the opportunity.

In the end, I too sided with Morrigan. Either way, I'm betraying someone, and either way, I'm potentially being decieved and used. I might as well side with the one currently working for me, who I'm kind of bonding with...and who can still be subject to a little manipulation and influence of my doing.:devil:

I found the ritual intriguing. I hope very much that it is not wasted and the consequences will show up in the future. Basically my gut instinct was to do it.

Only thing we can do is wait and see...

haroldhardluck wrote...

Do you dislike the charity and relief work the Chantry does? How about their quest board offering rewards for helping out people? It is very obvious that helping people is one of the major tasks of the Chantry. Just listen to the casual conversations between NPCs about how much work is being done to help the refugees in Lothering,  However it is also obvious what the Chantry is supposed to be and the game is clearly pushing all the emotional
buttons people have about the real thing to make the gamers schizophrenic about the Chantry.

Can't speak for SusanStoHelit, but I think I know where she's coming from. Personally, I'm all about religious freedom as well, and bear no ill will towards small Chantry priests, who indeed have good intentions and do a great many charitable deeds. But the larger organization of the Chantry itself, however, I regard as very dangerous. I support religious freedom, it does not, a core of its belief is to convert those who do not abide by it, and stamp out all other religions. This has largely been done to the Elven faith(s), and has worked to further suppress their culture and keep them in line (on the bottom rung of society), and has added insult to injury by removing most references to Andraste's sole Elf disciple. Furthermore, the Chantry has a lot of political clout in Fereldan and across Thedas, its own military force in the Templars, and through them, has an almost monopolistic hold on
mages. Simply put, the Chantry has a lot of power in its hands that is subject to abuse, and it's only seeking more. Opening a Chantry in Orzammar (at the behest of a priest who himself gave off a very arrogant air) only gives it another foothold to expand its influence. And my Alienage elf couldn't have that.

Modifié par Xetirox, 15 janvier 2010 - 01:59 .


#31
Hyper Cutter

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Gimmemocha wrote...

I sometimes hesitate over Vaughn. Kill him or leave him there? Sometimes I kill him in case another Arl of Denerim gets appointed and someone finds him in the cell and lets him out. Sometimes I leave him to rot just so I can pop back by on my way out and mock him a little.

I've killed him every time. In every other origin, he rapes Shianni and gets away with it, that alone earns him the shank knife.

#32
Maria Caliban

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Elvhen Veluthil wrote...
If a game is giving you a hard time making choices, well, it's falling short in its expectation to be an epic game. There are only two ways to get epic, epic good or epic evil (Champion of Valor or Lord of Darkness). You cannot get epic by choosing, destiny is a mysterious thing indeed.

Sarielle wrote...
I completely disagree. Black and white morality is hardly compelling.

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...
Playing a game as a realist is the worst way to do it. That's what I believe at least.

Sarielle wrote...
My point is that all good or all evil characters are static and boring.



Some people can’t separate their personal tastes from facts. Next up: “Strawberry is the one, true ice cream flavor and all others are failures at being ice cream.”

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 15 janvier 2010 - 03:08 .


#33
haroldhardluck

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Elvhen Veluthil wrote...
You folks must have been kids back then, but in the really epic games (BG), there wasn't any hard decision to make. You either was good or evil (neutral for the gloomy Sundays). And since you knew what you were, there wasn't any trouble making choices. If a game is giving you a hard time making choices, well, it's falling short in its expectation to be an epic game. There are only two ways to get epic, epic good or epic evil (Champion of Valor or Lord of Darkness). You cannot get epic by choosing, destiny is a mysterious thing indeed.


I think the whole point of DAO is that it is NOT a simplistic black and white world in deliberate contrast to the traditional way of doing epics. In this game both the epic battles and the epic decisions are hard to do. In this game you have to think about your choices as well as your combat tactics.

Harold

#34
Sarielle

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Some people can’t separate their
personal tastes from facts. Next up: “Strawberry is the one, true ice
cream flavor and all others are failures at being ice cream.”



Uh, if that was aimed at me, I assumed we all had a high enough IQ to realize this was all personal opinion. I did go so far as to say "Yay that we both can play it how we like," as did he.


Edited in the quote since I realized someone posted in front of me.

Modifié par Sarielle, 15 janvier 2010 - 03:32 .


#35
maxernst

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Funny, I just posted about a decision I'm agonizing over right now...I'm not happy with the decision I made or rather not so much unhappy with the decision itself, as unhappy that the game didn't allow me to make the contingency plans that would make the decision more palatable.

#36
haroldhardluck

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Xetirox wrote...
Keep in mind, saving the PC and Al was Flemeth's idea, not Morrigan's, and Morrigan was only with you (initially) at her mother's behest. And though Morrigan is the product of Flemeth's upbringing, which makes her the more sympathetic of the two, she still fully subscribes to her mother's beliefs; whether or not Flemeth had any sinister plans for her daughter, killing her for power is the kind of thing you would expect Morrigan to do given the opportunity.


Your PC gets to ask Flemeth why she saves them and her answer is basically that the Blight endangers her as well and the grey wardens are the best way to end it. So her decision to save you is motivated by basic self interest. Enemy of my enemy is my ally today but can be my enemy tomorrow. So I do not consider that my PC owes Flemeth anything more than to do what a grey warden is supposed to do.

Flemeth is definitely a sociopath who cares for no one but herself. That is the sum total of her beliefs. Preserving her life at the expense of everyone else's is her motivation for saving you and raising Morrigan. However if you are nice to Morrigan, you can tell from voice tone, facial expression and body language that she is reacting as a emotionally stunted child to affection. While she has absorbed Flemeth's sociopathic beliefs, she is not a sociopath. As a result it is possible for the PC to soften her just as you can harden Alistair. This is what makes giving her the child so interesting. How will she raise the child? Will she be like Flemeth or will she actually love the child?

Harold

#37
haroldhardluck

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Hyper Cutter wrote...
I've killed him every time. In every other origin, he rapes Shianni and gets away with it, that alone earns him the shank knife.


Your PC does not know what he did and neither do you if you have not played the city elf origin. So in the non-city elf origins, I let Vaughn go in return for his vote against Loghain. In all the endings Shianni ends up in a position of power and in the city elf origins, Shianni becomes a bann. So she always ends up in a position of power to make Vaughn's life miserable. Revenge is much sweeter when it lasts and lasts. ;)

Harold

#38
Eowien Thiele

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I have played this game through five times simply because of my real-life shock when I watched someone I "loved" die in my place. I was furious with everyone, especially this computer generated....man child.



The hardest decision for me has been whether to kill Flemeth or not. I feel compromised either way.



The second hardest decision was to bed Morrighan or not. I like her better as a friend than a lover.



The third has been the forced choice between Harrowmont and Bhelen. Since I played the Dwarven Noble story through, I have a hard time choosing Bhelen.



I could never choose Branka over Cairidan.



As for the dark ritual...I fail to see the difference between an old god trapped in a tainted dragon body versus an old god trapped in a tainted human body. Not interested.



Believe it or not, one of my biggest dilemmas is on the use of my allied forces. I'm trying to play through so that I can use my forces without losing a single one. Best I've done so far is 5 dead.

#39
EthanDirtch

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When I first played with my Marus character, I chose Harrowmont over Bhelen because of Vartag. It was easier to see Dulin as more polite and honorable, while Vartag was demanding and deceptive. It was clearer, so without reading what happens, or otherwise having other inside knowledge into Harrowmont or Bhelen, Marus made the only choice available to him: honoring a dead king's last wish. Faced with either participating in a pretty fair tournament, or using forged documents to slander someone, Marus chose to fight.



As for the Ritual ending, Marus chose to sacrifice, mostly because he felt it should be on him and no one else; Alistair had his duties, and Marus would not burden a child with the essence of an old god, fearing what it might do to the child or the people that would inevitably surround him/her.



I try my best to base my decisions as closely to what my character would do with what the character knew at the time, which is why I finally decided to just continue on after killing Cauthrien in the Arl of Denerim's Estate. It's something Lyene would do, to survive, to not be told what to do, to be told 'her place' by anyone.

#40
haroldhardluck

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Eowien Thiele wrote...
As for the dark ritual...I fail to see the difference between an old god trapped in a tainted dragon body versus an old god trapped in a tainted human body. Not interested.


According to the dialog the child would not be tainted. It would be the soul of an old god in the pure body of an innocent. So the baby would be a blank slate onto which Morrigan can write anything. Morrigan refuses to say what she would "write" other than the child would not be harmed. Given her upbringing, Morrigan is no June Cleaver or Carol Brady. However the character can soften her, especially if the PC is male. So there is the possibility that Morrigan may do a decent job of raising the child. It is possible that she is raising someone who can protect her from Flemeth since the dialog makes it clear that Flemeth is not truly dead, just mometarily inconvenienced by the lost of her current body.

Harold

#41
Sebastiannie

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I haven't yet finished the game, but so far my greatest moment of hesitation has been whether to execute Loghain or not. I have agonized over it but eventually decided he should be punished for his treachery. Had there been an option to imprison him, I would have chosen it, but to leave him free - it just wouldn't be fair.

#42
Xandurpein

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Sarielle wrote...

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

You folks must have been kids back then, but in the really epic games (BG), there wasn't any hard decision to make. You either was good or evil (neutral for the gloomy Sundays). And since you knew what you were, there wasn't any trouble making choices. If a game is giving you a hard time making choices, well, it's falling short in its expectation to be an epic game. There are only two ways to get epic, epic good or epic evil (Champion of Valor or Lord of Darkness). You cannot get epic by choosing, destiny is a mysterious thing indeed.


I completely disagree. Black and white morality is hardly compelling.


As I recall the old Dungeons&Dragons morality it more or less came down to "Evil guys are evil because they kill good guys" and "Good guys are good because they killed evil guys". Not to mention the fact that good and evil was a racial trait (Orc = evil, elf = good and so on) I had a few years left of my teens when I began to feel this to be horribly wrong.

One of the things that makes Dragon Age superior to BG is that the stupid alignment system is out. Moral choices are much more profound in Dragon Age, because you don't score points for it. If you take the desire demons offer on the quest to kill Connor, no one will ever know you did a heartless selfish thing except you. No points, no score, just you.

#43
Xandurpein

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haroldhardluck wrote...

Eowien Thiele wrote...
As for the dark ritual...I fail to see the difference between an old god trapped in a tainted dragon body versus an old god trapped in a tainted human body. Not interested.


According to the dialog the child would not be tainted. It would be the soul of an old god in the pure body of an innocent. So the baby would be a blank slate onto which Morrigan can write anything. Morrigan refuses to say what she would "write" other than the child would not be harmed. Given her upbringing, Morrigan is no June Cleaver or Carol Brady. However the character can soften her, especially if the PC is male. So there is the possibility that Morrigan may do a decent job of raising the child. It is possible that she is raising someone who can protect her from Flemeth since the dialog makes it clear that Flemeth is not truly dead, just mometarily inconvenienced by the lost of her current body.

Harold


The real problem with the Dark ritual to me is the things you don't know.

We know that an archdemon is an old god affected by the taint, but what exactly is an Old god unaffected by the taint. Is it benevolent? Is it dangerous? Is it really something we want loose on this world?

What does Morrigan intend to do with the child? Will she raise it to be a good and benevolent being? Does she intend to use it to augment her power and possess it, like Flemeth tried to possess her? Do we really want an ultra-powerful Morrigan loose on this world?

#44
Xetirox

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haroldhardluck wrote...
According to the dialog the child would not be tainted. It would be the soul of an old god in the pure body of an innocent. So the baby would be a blank slate onto which Morrigan can write anything. Morrigan refuses to say what she would "write" other than the child would not be harmed. Given her upbringing, Morrigan is no June Cleaver or Carol Brady. However the character can soften her, especially if the PC is male. So there is the possibility that Morrigan may do a decent job of raising the child. It is possible that she is raising someone who can protect her from Flemeth since the dialog makes it clear that Flemeth is not truly dead, just mometarily inconvenienced by the lost of her current body.

But the child is in fact tainted. It was sired by a warden, the taint in him is passed on, and the Archdemon's soul now occupies its body. Exactly what difference is there between the embryo and a Darkspawn? That Archdemon can only occupy a Darkspawn's tainted and soulless body; going into the occupied vessel of a Grey Warden kills it permanently. So if it goes into the "body" of a warden's unborn child (which it could only do via the taint), exactly what reason do we have to think that it will be any different, that the soul of the Old God will become uncorrupted? Did we end the Fifth Blight once and for all, or did we just put it off? There's a lot about the ritual we don't know, Morrigan isn't talking, and she says even less on what she intends to do with it. And whether or not you soften her up, whether or not you kill her mother, and whether or not she even finds out what Flemeth intended to do with her, she still wants to go through with it, and leaves in a huff if refused. And finally, the PC may have been able to show Morrigan an alternate way to see the world, but she's still largely the same person she was when first encountered in the Wilds; she's still decidedly amoral, she's still highly ruthless, and she still seeks power. Entrusting her with an Old God that may or may not be corrupted is a huge and dangerous leap of faith that could have untold consequences.

Modifié par Xetirox, 16 janvier 2010 - 11:16 .


#45
EthanDirtch

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The child will definitely be an x-factor at some point down the line, probably in Dragon Age 2 or 3...



Another agonizing decision I've been through: leaving the 'question' dialogue options alone. I can't seem to do it, no matter how many times I've played the game (2 playthroughs now! on my 3rd...) I just have to click the question, "What is...", "Who is..." "Why..." etc.



I'm not sure if it's just me subconsciously adhering to the 'no metagaming' thing, or adhering to character, or just some obessive compulsive need to complete a dialogue by asking questions, even though I already know all the answers by now (well, most anything not related to origin).