132 réponses à ce sujet

[robarcool]

Lord Chun wrote...

*walks in*

Not this agin

*walks out*

[DeathNyx]

Still my favorite class together with the engineers

[Derry Myrnen]

Xcam901 wrote...

MasterReefa wrote...

You're just now realizing this?

Im a new player and it took me 4 silver games to realize this.

Not that long

Explains much... Go play Human Vanguard on silver. 

[sliverofamoon]

Ah yes... the daily nerf infiltrators thread....

Been going on since the demo.

Modifié par sliverofamoon, 25 mars 2013 - 06:09 .

[TheRedBanana]

It's a co-op game? I have seen non-infiltrators out score infiltrators and I have outscored infiltrators with non-infiltrators.

So, what you be saying is, an elite player, playing an infiltrator, will kill all the things? Then the team will win?

If you're not happy, take your ball and go home.

[UEG Donkey]

TheRedBanana wrote...

It's a co-op game? I have seen non-infiltrators out score infiltrators and I have outscored infiltrators with non-infiltrators.

So, what you be saying is, an elite player, playing an infiltrator, will kill all the things? Then the team will win?

If you're not happy, take your ball and go home.

Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced. 

[Cyonan]

UEG Donkey wrote...
Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced.  

It was 30%.

and Soldiers are more played than Infiltrators are.

Always have been.

[TheRedBanana]

UEG Donkey wrote...

TheRedBanana wrote...

It's a co-op game? I have seen non-infiltrators out score infiltrators and I have outscored infiltrators with non-infiltrators.

So, what you be saying is, an elite player, playing an infiltrator, will kill all the things? Then the team will win?

If you're not happy, take your ball and go home.

Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced. 

The player that only cares about playing the class which is deemed to be the most over powered is not the player I want to play with. I play mostly PUG's on Gold and I have never seen a mass of Infiltrators filling up slots. What does it matter that at one time half the playerbase was playing Infiltrators? They aren't now, and simply because the TGI and AIU are considered over powered, we should nerf TC? What about the other Infiltrators? 

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Cyonan wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...
Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced.  

It was 30%.

and Soldiers are more played than Infiltrators are.

Always have been.

Always have been?  Where do you get that from?

[Cyonan]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...
Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced.  

It was 30%.

and Soldiers are more played than Infiltrators are.

Always have been.

Always have been?  Where do you get that from?

The telemetry data that has always had Soldiers as the most played class.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Cyonan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...
Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced.  

It was 30%.

and Soldiers are more played than Infiltrators are.

Always have been.

Always have been?  Where do you get that from?

The telemetry data that has always had Soldiers as the most played class.

Okay, you may be right.  I forgot that the 30% Infiltrators was the number for Gold, and not across all levels.

[Nitrocuban]

The only thing that should be changed about TC is that if cloak breaks through weaponfire you have 3s cooldown no matter what.
Everything else is fine.

[UEG Donkey]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...
Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced.  

It was 30%.

and Soldiers are more played than Infiltrators are.

Always have been.

Always have been?  Where do you get that from?

The Solider always has been the most played class on all difficulty levels.  The infiltrator was the overwhelming pick for GOLD though and that more or less caused the TC nerf last summer. 

[UEG Donkey]

TheRedBanana wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...

TheRedBanana wrote...

It's a co-op game? I have seen non-infiltrators out score infiltrators and I have outscored infiltrators with non-infiltrators.

So, what you be saying is, an elite player, playing an infiltrator, will kill all the things? Then the team will win?

If you're not happy, take your ball and go home.

Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced. 

The player that only cares about playing the class which is deemed to be the most over powered is not the player I want to play with. I play mostly PUG's on Gold and I have never seen a mass of Infiltrators filling up slots. What does it matter that at one time half the playerbase was playing Infiltrators? They aren't now, and simply because the TGI and AIU are considered over powered, we should nerf TC? What about the other Infiltrators? 

That wasn't your orignal post, you ask why we should care about balance and I answered why we should care about balance. 

You're still relating personal experience into the balance discussion when you haven't proved why its important until then I'm not going to address that portion of your post.  

It matters because it proves that Bioware acknowledged a sever imbalance and changed it.  What I'd prefer to do is give infiltrators their level 6 damage evo back and stop TC canceling.  If it turns out Infiltrators can't out DPS AR soldiers through the first clip then bump up the base damage boost of TC but what it shouldn't do is make infilitrators the best at sustained DPS meaning geting  rid of TC cancelling. 

If the TGI and AIU are out of balance frankly you could nerf both of their TCs because they are unique.  ORyou could adjust repair matrix or the TGI's passives or even his health.  Theres a ton of things you could do with those two to baalnce that wouldn't effect the other kits. 

Modifié par UEG Donkey, 25 mars 2013 - 06:52 .

[TerraNomad]

I agree with the OP on various points, however my problem really isn't that the Infiltrators need to be nerfed. I admit that they deal excessively more raw damage than any other class, such to the point that any players in Gold-Platinum can't make nearly the impact as an Infiltrator with regards to boss enemies. It's not impossible, however the deck is stacked firmly against you when you attempt to do so.

The honest answer to this problem is that nerfing the Infiltrators will not fix the problem. We need to see the other kits receive buffs to compete.

It isn't really that every infiltrator class is overpowered, though compared to other kits they typically stand stronger. My example would be the Reckoning kits. The AIU vastly outpaced the other kits. Kroguard and Juggernaut stood out as effectively purely for survival. But compare the AIU with the Cabal or the Talon kits when some of their powers are effectively useless.

The best way to fix a stagnating class pool is to continuously buff the underwhelming kits. I mean, a minimal buff to the Soldier's passive, or a small boost to the CDR of Adepts would really help to even the playing field. Though at this point in the life of ME3, I fear that there really isn't much point anymore. With no more releases for kits and items, I feel the balance updates will soon be outdated considering a large degree of the fanbase will be moving on.

[jamdjedi]

Shadow along with Fury are my favorite classes

Love SS ninja in your face style!

[CmnDwnWrkn]

UEG Donkey wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...
Yes, its a co-op game. No, that does not mean there shouldn't be relative balance between the classes and even the kits.  Personal evidence of one player out playing another is mostly irrelevant to the discussion of balance.  Before the TC nerf back last summer half of the playerbase were using infiltrators in Gold to the exclusion of the other classes.  What happens is without balance the payerbase migrates to the same kits and loadouts gets bored and leaves the game.  Imbalance makes players take their ball and go home not people asking for the classes, kits, weapons, gear, and consumables to be balanced.  

It was 30%.

and Soldiers are more played than Infiltrators are.

Always have been.

Always have been?  Where do you get that from?

The Solider always has been the most played class on all difficulty levels.  The infiltrator was the overwhelming pick for GOLD though and that more or less caused the TC nerf last summer. 

Another reason for the nerf that doesn't get discussed as much was that TC was giving a higher damage output than was intended with the rank 6 40% sniper bonus - it was intended to be an additiive bonus and not the multiplicative bonus it was demonstrated to give by player testing.  So the reduction from 40% to 25% was to bring the damage bonus closer to what was intended.

[Cyonan]

UEG Donkey wrote...
It matters because it proves that Bioware acknowledged a sever imbalance and changed it.  What I'd prefer to do is give infiltrators their level 6 damage evo back and stop TC canceling.  If it turns out Infiltrators can't out DPS AR soldiers through the first clip then bump up the base damage boost of TC but what it shouldn't do is make infilitrators the best at sustained DPS meaning geting  rid of TC cancelling.  

If the TGI and AIU are out of balance frankly you could nerf both of their TCs because they are unique.  ORyou could adjust repair matrix or the TGI's passives or even his health.  Theres a ton of things you could do with those two to baalnce that wouldn't effect the other kits. 

The problem I pointed out with your fix didn't really matter about Adrenaline Rush, or Marksman, or any other character capable of using weapons decently.

It was that you were trying to balance a group of characters all at varying levels of effectiveness by applying the same change to all of them.

It was never going to balance things, because it wasn't trying to balance Infiltrators with themselves.

Balance within the class first, then look at nerfing all of them at once if they're overpowered.

[iOnlySignIn]

Xcam901 wrote...

Engy: A utillity class

Fuck. You.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 25 mars 2013 - 07:19 .

[UEG Donkey]

Cyonan wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...
It matters because it proves that Bioware acknowledged a sever imbalance and changed it.  What I'd prefer to do is give infiltrators their level 6 damage evo back and stop TC canceling.  If it turns out Infiltrators can't out DPS AR soldiers through the first clip then bump up the base damage boost of TC but what it shouldn't do is make infilitrators the best at sustained DPS meaning geting  rid of TC cancelling.  

If the TGI and AIU are out of balance frankly you could nerf both of their TCs because they are unique.  ORyou could adjust repair matrix or the TGI's passives or even his health.  Theres a ton of things you could do with those two to baalnce that wouldn't effect the other kits. 

The problem I pointed out with your fix didn't really matter about Adrenaline Rush, or Marksman, or any other character capable of using weapons decently.

It was that you were trying to balance a group of characters all at varying levels of effectiveness by applying the same change to all of them.

It was never going to balance things, because it wasn't trying to balance Infiltrators with themselves.

Balance within the class first, then look at nerfing all of them at once if they're overpowered.

The problem is first and foremost with TC and balance should start there.  As for the characters that you're reffering to namely the FQI, HI, and the Shadow you could do the following; you could buff the hell out of Shadow Strike if you need to although Duration/Bonus power Shadow is pretty good and wouldn't be affect by TC cancelling because they use all of the TC period anyway doing a double SS.  As for the Quarian and vanilla Human buff the radius of stickies and buff cryo blast and sabotage.  I'm sure it wouldn't make the other kits that use CB or Sabo OP and call it a day. 

[Cyonan]

UEG Donkey wrote...
The problem is first and foremost with TC and balance should start there.  As for the characters that you're reffering to namely the FQI, HI, and the Shadow you could do the following; you could buff the hell out of Shadow Strike if you need to although Duration/Bonus power Shadow is pretty good and wouldn't be affect by TC cancelling because they use all of the TC period anyway doing a double SS.  As for the Quarian and vanilla Human buff the radius of stickies and buff cryo blast and sabotage.  I'm sure it wouldn't make the other kits that use CB or Sabo OP and call it a day.  

The problem is not purely with TC if not all Infiltrators are overpowered.

Better to create balance within the Infiltrator class first then balance them as a whole only if it needs it. If you don't need to nerf a character that didn't need it only to buff them elsewhere then don't do it. That just adds two more things that you can miscalculate which as we have seen is very easy to do in balancing a game.

Though the dicussion is pointless since there are no more balance changes, and any talk is going to be about Mass Effect 4's Infiltrators.

To which I will say I think it should be that non DPS roles are more important, then take away CC/Survivability from the Infiltrators that have it, and let them be the damage specialists they're supposed to be.

[K_O_513]

1 starred
Negged
Reported

Have nice day.

[UEG Donkey]

Cyonan wrote...

The problem is not purely with TC if not all Infiltrators are overpowered.

I don't know that they all aren't overpowered or are all underpowered. I've never expressly said they are unbalanced unlessI was referring to Bioware's nerf last summer.   I've stated that Infiltrators shouldn't be the best at sustained DPS but that doesn't mean an absolute nerf.  With that said the kits you are reffering to that aren
t OP in your opinion the HI, QFI, and Shadow could easily be buffed to bring about balance within the class and the game.  I.E. Duration/Bonus power Shadow isn't going to be affected by the change because they don't normally cancel TC early, Sabo and CB could be buffed to help the classes that have Sabo and CB. 

[Cyonan]

UEG Donkey wrote...
I don't know that they all aren't overpowered or are all underpowered. I've never expressly said they are unbalanced unlessI was referring to Bioware's nerf last summer.   I've stated that Infiltrators shouldn't be the best at sustained DPS but that doesn't mean an absolute nerf.  With that said the kits you are reffering to that aren
t OP in your opinion the HI, QFI, and Shadow could easily be buffed to bring about balance within the class and the game.  I.E. Duration/Bonus power Shadow isn't going to be affected by the change because they don't normally cancel TC early, Sabo and CB could be buffed to help the classes that have Sabo and CB. 

What you're saying would be like me saying nerf BEs because N7 Fury and Drell Adept are too strong, then we'll buff the other Adepts if it turns out they're really bad now.

If your nerf results in multiple characters needing a buff, then you should question if you nerfed the right thing.

People are much too focused on Tactical Cloak alone when it comes to Infiltrators.

Tactical Cloak alone doesn't not make any Infiltrator overpowered.

Why would you nerf TC, then buff all the Infiltrators that now need it, when you could have just nerfed the Infiltrators that are OP like the TGI and AIU directly?

Modifié par Cyonan, 25 mars 2013 - 08:11 .

[Cyrax86]

let's not look at actual facts and blindly bash TC because your favorite class isn't the best or because you're constantly out scored by Infiltrators.