232 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Monica21 wrote...
I know what I'm getting with Dragon Age (for the most part) so I know there won't be character sheets and multiclassing or a PnP experience. What I am hoping for in Inquisition though, is more depth, both for the PC and the NPCs, which is why bringing back the hearts is disappointing.

In comparison to what? DA2 wasn't less complex than DA:O in this regard - it was just less obsfucatory. The best analogy I can give is this: it sounds like you're asking for the equivalent of not having DA:I give you information on the damage that abilities cause because it was "more complex" in DA:O to figure out in-game what damage any spell actually caused.

[Evessa]

In response to the very first entry here...I, too, try to be a nice gal in Origins and DAII. I've been playing Origins again and chose the "Do you often enjoy the company of other women" option with Leliana - which I never do, but did so this time - and she's automatically interested. To me it's just a question, trying to get to know her, not an invitation, but...hey. Also, I played DAII again - still not finished, but - before returning to Origins the past few weeks instead and I played a male Hawke. I have an issue with Anders automatically assuming when you're nice to him in that first conversation that he and my male Hawke are in a relationship. I never choose the mean replies in games, I feel bad afterward, but he just jumps right into the idea that your male Hawke is interested in him. There's no conversation beforehand that you can do that lets him know that he's not. I didn't like that. Hell, it was harder to get Anders as a female Hawke than it apparently is for a male Hawke. All of the other romance options in DAII don't instantly assume that them and Hawke are official until later.

Modifié par Evessa, 26 mars 2013 - 10:14 .

[nightscrawl]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Lines that lead to romance in DA2 and Inquisition are marked with different icons. Don't click the hearts, and you will avoid accidental romances.

You kept them! Thank you!

[HolyAvenger]

Allan, just wanted to know I really appreciated reading your comments in this thread. Your participation on this board is awesome.

[Kidd]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well it's up to Gaider and company to try to convince you otherwise.

Original post quoted on purpose~

Allan, your first thought shouldn't be to alienate yourself from "Gaider and company." Without you, the scripts would be a mess, actions wouldn't fire, NPCs would fall through floors and character interactions would randomly skip around the character arc's timeline. Not to mention people wouldn't have the tools they need to work with. You're as much a part of this as anyone else.

I know you edited your post afterwards, but I still reacted to seeing your first state of mind. Now stop distancing yourself =P

[Wulfram]

Could there be an occasion when picking "heart" actually screwed up the romance? Or at least caused complications? Or would that be too tricky?

[HolyAvenger]

Wulfram wrote...

Could there be an occasion when picking "heart" actually screwed up the romance? Or at least caused complications? Or would that be too tricky?

 

I think they could easily do something along these lines.

Sleeping with Jack and Aerie at the earliest opportunity screwed up those romances, for example.

[BeatoSama]

Doesn't saying that you don't want to bring in feelings to Isabela screw up her romance?

[Cultist]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Lines that lead to romance in DA2 and Inquisition are marked with different icons. Don't click the hearts, and you will avoid accidental romances.

Heart icons. 6 months ago. HA HA HA, OH WOW.

Modifié par Cultist, 26 mars 2013 - 11:28 .

[LTD]

OP, you are making a fair point and I can totally see reason in your arhuments. However, I want your love, and I want your revenge I want your love, I don't wanna be friends J'ai ton amour et je veux ton revenge J'ai ton amour, I don't wanna be friends Want your bad romance (Oh, caught in a bad romance) I don't wanna beee friiiiiiineds.

[Fast Jimmy]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Could there be an occasion when picking "heart" actually screwed up the romance? Or at least caused complications? Or would that be too tricky?

 

I think they could easily do something along these lines.

Sleeping with Jack and Aerie at the earliest opportunity screwed up those romances, for example.

Morrigan in DA:O asks you how you feel about love. The correct response to move the romance forward is to say that love is not real, merely a feeling that gets in the way. To say that you believe in love causes her to disapprove.

So, in a case like that, would you choose the heart icon to continue the romance, or would you choose the heart-break icon?

Later, after Morrigan is in love with you, she begs you to break up with her, to spare her these feelings of dependency. You can let her go, saying you love her too much to see her suffer. Or you can say you won't let her go, that you love her too much to throw it away.

Which of THOSE options would be the heart icon? Which would be the broken heart? If, after all, we are simply talking intent. Is your intent to say you love Morrigan... so you will break up with her? That's a heart AND a broken heart. It is a litle too tricky to nail down easily.

That's my hesitancy with the icons. If you can't look at what your character is saying and, in its stead, you have have an icon that can only convey one concept, not the myriad of concepts/intents/levels that one line can cover, then you make it difficult to use. 

Part of a testing plan I would suggest for the DA team when it comes to the dialogue wheel is to have the person testing think of a detailed, but not "cookie-cutter" personaltiy/character to roleplay. If the dialogue system let's them play that type of character without confusion, dialogue mis-steps or immersion-breaking character statements, then it is a good system. If you have five or six players able to play five or six equally different character types and none of them step on the toes of the player once without the player needing to reload or being told the "right" option to pick to stay in character outside of the documentation/game prompts, then you have a good system.

I'd suggest Han Solo as one character to test.

[Xilizhra]

Which of THOSE options would be the heart icon? Which would be the broken heart? If, after all, we are simply talking intent. Is your intent to say you love Morrigan... so you will break up with her? That's a heart AND a broken heart. It is a litle too tricky to nail down easily.

The heart/broken heart icons determine if you're pursuing a romance, not necessarily as being the one indicator that you love them/don't love them. So breaking up with anyone would be the broken heart one.

[fchopin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Well it's up to us to try to convince you otherwise.

You will have to try a lot harder to convince me, after the don't click on the heart icon if you don't want to romance from Mary Kirby my enthusiasm for DA3 has gone down 30%.

[HolyAvenger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

That's my hesitancy with the icons. If you can't look at what your character is saying and, in its stead, you have have an icon that can only convey one concept, not the myriad of concepts/intents/levels that one line can cover, then you make it difficult to use. 

 

You can never know exactly what you're character is going to say when you have a voiced protagonist. That's why I'm all for choosing the tone or intention of what they're saying. However we should only be able to choose the PC's actions, and not the NPCs reactions i.e. if you pick a sappy, lovey-dovey statement in a conversation where the NPC is obviously not looking for that, you should get hit with a negative reaction. 

The heart option should indicate flirtatious or romantic INTENT. Not outcome. 

[Fast Jimmy]

You can never know exactly what you're character is going to say when you have a voiced protagonist.

What? Of course you can. You can show the exact text of what your character is going to say. Recently, DE:HR did just that (paraphrase options with the full dialogue if you hovered over the option). Granted, it left out any feedback your character would give in-between choosing dialogue lines, but it displayed an entire paragraph response of what you're character would say, along with tone, before you make your decision.

That's not something Bioware said they want to pursue for the DA games... but that doesn't mean it isn't possible with a voice protagonist. It's been done before. And it isn't the game-ruining experience some would make it out to be.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 mars 2013 - 01:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The heart option should indicate flirtatious or romantic INTENT. Not outcome.

But back to my Morrigan example... is it romantic intent to say you believe in love? Because that will be actually discouraging the romance with her. Or would choosing the heart icon be saying you think love is unnecessary and silly? Which icon there would be the heart icon? And which icon of the two would be the broken heart icon? Or would there be a different icon other than the heart you'd need to choose to progress through the romance?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 mars 2013 - 01:39 .

[HolyAvenger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You can never know exactly what you're character is going to say when you have a voiced protagonist.

What? Of course you can. You can show the exact text of what your character is going to say. Recently, DE:HR did just that (paraphrase options with the full dialogue if you hovered over the option). Granted, it left out any feedback your character would give in-between choosing dialogue lines, but it displayed an entire paragraph response of what you're character would say, along with tone, before you make your decision.

That's not something Bioware said they want to pursue for the DA games... but that doesn't mean it isn't possible with a voice protagonist. It's been done before. And it isn't the game-ruining experience some would make it out to be.

 

Sounds kinda rubbish to me, but I'll grant its doable. I meant you can't have the entire dialogue written out in the options, but that system shows that its not impossible I guess. 

[HolyAvenger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The heart option should indicate flirtatious or romantic INTENT. Not outcome.

But back to my Morrigan example... is it romantic intent to say you believe in love? Because that will be actually discouraging the romance with her. Or would choosing the heart icon be saying you think love is unnecessary and silly? Which icon there would be the heart icon? And which icon of the two would be the broken heart icon? Or would there be a different icon other than the heart you'd need to choose to progress through the romance?

 

See in that dialogue, I wouldn't put a heart or heartbreak icon next to any of them. I would mostly confine that icon to romance initiations and obvious breakpoints. Maybe use it for some LI-specific dialogue at some points along the story. 

Let the player ROLEPLAY their character. 

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 26 mars 2013 - 01:41 .

[BeatoSama]

Isabela has a scene where she asks if Hawke wants to bring feelings into their relationship. Neither option has an heart icon. The Morrigan scene would probably be the same way.

[Blackrising]

BeatoSama wrote...

Isabela has a scene where she asks if Hawke wants to bring feelings into their relationship. Neither option has an heart icon. The Morrigan scene would probably be the same way.

Are you sure? I thought both options had hearts...but I may be wrong. Haven't played her romance in a long time.

[Fast Jimmy]

See in that dialogue, I wouldn't put a heart or heartbreak icon next to any of them. I would mostly confine that icon to romance initiations and obvious breakpoints. Maybe use it for some LI-specific dialogue at some points along the story. 

Let the player ROLEPLAY their character. 

Okay then... what icon would you use to ROLEPLAY saying that you believe in love? Wouldn't it logically be a heart? It is a romantic thing to say. Stating your belief in love is sappy, romantic and gushy. I'm struggling to think of an icon to use instead of that. Any icon used to indicate love/romance would be themed with a heart or something similar.

Which means that you would choose the other icon, which would be... detached pragmatism? I'm not sure what that icon would be. Maybe a picture of Frederick Nietzche?

Point being, if you choose the picture of Nietzche (for lack of a better word), you'd be in the romance. It is a big bonus to the Morrigan romance approval arc. So Mary Kirby's line of "don't click the heart icon, you won't be in a romance" would seem to indicate that the way Morrigan's romance was written would be mechanically difficult, if not impossible, to have in such a system.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 mars 2013 - 01:53 .

[HolyAvenger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Okay then... what icon would you use to ROLEPLAY saying that you believe in love? Wouldn't it logically be a heart? It is a romantic thing to say. Stating your belief in love is sappy, romantic and gushy. I'm struggling to think of an icon to use instead of that. Any icon used to indicate love/romance would be themed with a heart or something similar.

 

I wouldn't use either. I'd have one line that was like "Blah Blah, i Have feelings for you, love exists etc" and another which was like "you're right, feelings are a crutch, pragmatism is awesum!"

You know, paraphrased. Maybe heart icons on both. Maybe no icons at all. And here the player has to decide how to best to win their LIs heart. Have they been listening to Morrigan? Do they agree with her philosophy? etc

[HolyAvenger]

My interpretation of Mary's statement, by the way, is that heart icons will be necessary to initiate romances. Nothing about using them all the way through romance dialogues.

[BeatoSama]

Blackrising wrote...

BeatoSama wrote...

Isabela has a scene where she asks if Hawke wants to bring feelings into their relationship. Neither option has an heart icon. The Morrigan scene would probably be the same way.

Are you sure? I thought both options had hearts...but I may be wrong. Haven't played her romance in a long time.

Yes 100% sure it's an arrow choice. I'm pretty sure that picking of course not makes you unable to complete the romance.

EDIT: Pic for proof

Modifié par BeatoSama, 26 mars 2013 - 02:02 .

[Fast Jimmy]

You know, paraphrased. Maybe heart icons on both. Maybe no icons at all. And here the player has to decide how to best to win their LIs heart. Have they been listening to Morrigan? Do they agree with her philosophy? etc.

I would actually prefer the approach of no icons be used. In fact, it would be great if that approach was used a lot - leaving things ambiguous and only giving the icon in less, if not the minority of, instances. I'm not saying they have no value - clearly they do. But not everything someone says can be broken down into three tones or a single icon. Sometimes you just want to say something without being completely tied to one tone when saying it.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 mars 2013 - 02:10 .