232 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

In general, I think that both the Dragon Age games have given us good friendship and romance paths for romanceable characters. They are not like ME2 where if you can't sleep with Jack then your relationship comes to a screeching halt.

One area in which I think DA2 improved compared to DA:O was in the conversation icons giving us a general sense of intent. Even lines of text can be misinterpreted, unless you start giving them prefixes with similar functions to the icons (e.g. [Flirt], [Lie], [Sarcasm], etc).

I think that this could be improved further when it comes to flirting. One reason why I think people hesitate over the broken heart icon is because they don't want to... break the NPC's heart. Sure, I get that you can be nice and still break someone's heart in spite of trying to be kind when ruling out a romance, but I think that people are afraid of a jerkish put-down. There should be the option to let someone down gently or to express derision and rebuff the romance rudely, and people should be able to see in advance which one is which. This needn't necessitate extra icons (e.g. a diplomatic icon could be the middle path, between a golden heart and a broken one). This also needn't take any freedom away from writers: they can make the NPC react with hurt and offence to a diplomatic let-down if they want, since the icons only show the PC's intention or delivery of the line and don't determine consequences.

The only thing I can think of that might be unclear with, for instance, using the diplomatic icon in the middle, is that some players might expect the romance to remain possible, while others might expect it to be over. Accordingly, some might be annoyed that they closed down the romance without realising it, while still others might be annoyed if the NPC tried to initiate romance again ("Can't they take no for an answer?"). Perhaps, then, at some later point after a diplomatic romance resolution, dialogue might give the PC the chance to show romantic interest in the NPC (rather than just responding to the NPC's interest). Basically the PC would have to choose to bring it up again. And, of course, this doesn't restrict the writers' freedom to then have the NPC still interested or to say that they've moved on.

Just some thoughts.

[Reznore57]

The heart icon means you flirt...which trigger the romance.
Sometimes like with Anders , being simply nice to him also trigger the romance , but then you have the choice to keep on or tell him he misunderstood.

What I don't like about the heart icon is you feel like you have to always pick them for a romance to work.
Which is not true , but knowing that requires metagaming.
It's something I don't like sometimes , I had a shy mage "wooing " Fenris , I really didn't feel like they were a flirty bunch and I tried to avoid the heart icon.
The romance was stopped because I wasn't flirty during his questionning belief quest...

So for DA3 , I will keep on hitting the heart icon ...

ABout Morrigan line it would work since it's a romance special content ...
You could go with "Love is great" diplomatic.
"Love sucks " agressive .
I mean romance content shouldn't mean flirt all the time , you can have a decent conversation .
But I'm not sure DA2 had much romance dialogue post-coital.We had the "we just had sex let's talk" and three years later the "where do we go from here " thing.
The time skip and the fast that they were less chatty ( companions had more personal quests , though) didn't help .

[Estelindis]

Reznore57 wrote...

romance content shouldn't mean flirt all the time , you can have a decent conversation

This.  A thousand times this.  

I too have sometimes clicked a heart (or, in other games, a flirt option) out of fear that I'd derail the romance if I didn't.  But sometimes they are sooooo flirty.  I mean they make it sound like all the PC wants is to get into the NPC's pants, e.g. most of the initial flirts with Sebastian.  I actually had planned a character to romance him but had to stop because I felt like the flirt lines weren't respectful to the kind of character he was.  

I guess the question is: in all this flirtiness, where's the romance?  You can be a shy romantic as well as an overt one.  Admittedly I don't know how any such difference could be reflected with icons without adding more and more for each tonal variation, but even still: shy romance options please!  

Modifié par Estelindis, 26 mars 2013 - 02:18 .

[BeatoSama]

Reznore57 wrote...

But I'm not sure DA2 had much romance dialogue post-coital.We had the "we just had sex let's talk" and three years later the "where do we go from here " thing.
The time skip and the fast that they were less chatty ( companions had more personal quests , though) didn't help .

To be fair Alistair and Leliana's romances are pretty much finished once you sleep with them as well. While Zevran and Morrigan's romances continue afterwards.

[Estelindis]

BeatoSama wrote...

To be fair Alistair and Leliana's romances are pretty much finished once you sleep with them as well. While Zevran and Morrigan's romances continue afterwards.

Actually, for my Warden, the most emotionally-involving events in the romance with Alistair happened after they slept together, since he ended their relationship after the Landsmeet but then sacrificed himself out of love for her.  The romance may be over in one sense, but from another perspective they are still in love and have to face that challenges that involves. 

[HolyAvenger]

BeatoSama wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

But I'm not sure DA2 had much romance dialogue post-coital.We had the "we just had sex let's talk" and three years later the "where do we go from here " thing.
The time skip and the fast that they were less chatty ( companions had more personal quests , though) didn't help .

To be fair Alistair and Leliana's romances are pretty much finished once you sleep with them as well. While Zevran and Morrigan's romances continue afterwards.

 

Yes. I felt Isabela's romance only got interesting post-sex too. 

The time skip does make it feel less organic tbh. 

[HolyAvenger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You know, paraphrased. Maybe heart icons on both. Maybe no icons at all. And here the player has to decide how to best to win their LIs heart. Have they been listening to Morrigan? Do they agree with her philosophy? etc.

I would actually prefer the approach of no icons be used. In fact, it would be great if that approach was used a lot - leaving things ambiguous and only giving the icon in less, if not the minority of, instances. I'm not saying they have no value - clearly they do. But not everything someone says can be broken down into three tones or a single icon. Sometimes you just want to say something without being completely tied to one tone when saying it.

 

I agree but I think the tone implementation was a big step forward and something I loved about the convo system in DA2 compared to other games with VA'd protagonists.

[Fast Jimmy]

I wish the time skips had been better. I think it is usually a really cool concept in games.

[syllogi]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I wish the time skips had been better. I think it is usually a really cool concept in games.

Sometimes I still wonder what happened to Taffy.  Would her fate have been revealed in Exalted March?  We may never know.

Also, my husband and I first began our romance by talking about comic books and horror as a genre while we were working together.  To an outsider, it may not have looked like flirting, but it was far more indicative of our mutual attraction than any pick up lines.  The heart icons may serve a purpose, but there's something to be said for a more subtle reveal when it comes to attraction.

[HolyAvenger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I wish the time skips had been better. I think it is usually a really cool concept in games.

 

That's my whole take on DA2. A really cool concept they botched the execution of:whistle:

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I want to have a "I hate you that I want cut your throat" kind of relationship!

[Monica21]

Hazegurl wrote...

The dialogue choices in Origins, while many, was not perfect. I want to convince someone of something, just spend points on coercion and use anything that says persuade. Want to intimidate, just pick any dialogue with the word (intimidate) in it. Whether it fits your personality or not, you can just be mad and win the day. Are people really going to argue that this wasn't some form of "dumbing down" (Since the game telling you what the dialogue does is considered dumbing down).

Yes, because if you're spending skill points in Coercion then you're sacrificing skill points in something else. And a successful Intimidate roll was based on the character's Strength, so a Rogue or Mage could easily fail it. And this is true for a lot of RPGs. D&D 3.5 (I think) had skill points in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Taunt. Just because the game tells you what the line does, doesn't mean you'll succeed.

Edited to add: An example of the failure of any kind of persuasion option is the inability to successfully Intimidate if your dominant tone is anything other than aggressive. I could be a warrior in full plate with 48 strength and fail to Intimidate if I play a purple Hawke. That's kind of silly. This guy doesn't know me, and I'm decked out in weapons with three friends behind me and I can't get this idiot at the docks to show me a document? Come on, now.

Modifié par Monica21, 26 mars 2013 - 04:02 .

[syllogi]

EntropicAngel wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Sometimes I still wonder what happened to Taffy.  Would her fate have been revealed in Exalted March?  We may never know.

Also, my husband and I first began our romance by talking about comic books and horror as a genre while we were working together.  To an outsider, it may not have looked like flirting, but it was far more indicative of our mutual attraction than any pick up lines.  The heart icons may serve a purpose, but there's something to be said for a more subtle reveal when it comes to attraction.

The hearts were done to prevent ninjamancing though, as I recall.

Yeah, that would be the purpose I mentioned.  I just think it's not necessarily a terrible thing to be talking to someone and have them think you were flirting, or miss out on flirting because that dialogue option wasn't something your character would say.  As long as you're not locked in or out of romances after the first dialogue, it would feel more natural to be more concerned with the words being spoken than the icons being clicked.

As an example, I would have HATED having the first flirt with Anders be the only chance to lock in a romance with him.  He's angsting about being an abomination, and the flirt response is telling him his body looks nice...so even though I cringed at choosing that dialogue, the first time I played, I thought I had to, because it had a heart icon, and I wanted to try the Anders romance, and I didn't want to be locked out.  I would prefer a more natural progression from friendship dialogue, and more choices on how your main character can approach being more than just friends.  

[BeatoSama]

From what I remember you don't have to flirt with any characters during act 1 one to lock in a romance.

[HolyAvenger]

Nothing is ever locked in early, often because you don't even get members of your party till later in the game.

[syllogi]

BeatoSama wrote...

From what I remember you don't have to flirt with any characters during act 1 one to lock in a romance.

True, and like I said, I appreciate that, but on my first (and maybe even second) playthrough, I wasn't aware of that.  I thought I had to click heart icons in order to initiate/keep a romance going.  So, even though some of those dialogues were out of character for my Hawke, or just not something I wanted to say (hello, creeping on Merrill minutes after she's been cast out of her clan into a scary and depressing alienage), I chose those lines, and would have continued to assume that that was the "correct" way to play the romances, if I hadn't read these forums and learned differently.

[HolyAvenger]

syllogi wrote...
I chose those lines, and would have continued to assume that that was the "correct" way to play the romances, if I hadn't read these forums and learned differently.

 

Why not just, I dunno, RP your way through it. If I'm playing Douchebag Hawke, yeah then I try hitting that asap. If playing NiceHawke, just sympathy, no flirting. If the latter doesn't result in a romance in that PT, so be it. 

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

Yes, because if you're spending skill points in Coercion then you're sacrificing skill points in something else.

Not much of a sacrifice in DA:O.  You can always get your companions to grab the crafting skills

And a successful Intimidate roll was based on the character's Strength, so a Rogue or Mage could easily fail it.

Which was stupid.  I can blow up things with my mind, why does it matter how much I can benchpress?

Modifié par Wulfram, 26 mars 2013 - 05:02 .

[syllogi]

HolyAvenger wrote...

syllogi wrote...
I chose those lines, and would have continued to assume that that was the "correct" way to play the romances, if I hadn't read these forums and learned differently.

 

Why not just, I dunno, RP your way through it. If I'm playing Douchebag Hawke, yeah then I try hitting that asap. If playing NiceHawke, just sympathy, no flirting. If the latter doesn't result in a romance in that PT, so be it. 

Sometimes I do do that, and I enjoy roleplaying characters in different ways...but I also like to see as much content as possible, unless I do something like let Isabela run away forever and don't realize until mid Act 3 that she's never coming back.  I don't mind spoilers at all, but I'm not sitting around with a strategy guide.  So if I think I have to choose the heart icons to not lock out the Anders romance, I will click the icons, no matter how OOC the lines.

Obviously, I learned my lesson, and in DA3 I won't make that assumption, but I'm sure many others would.  And if the flirts in Act 1 didn't "count" towards the romances, why did we need them at all?  It took me out of the story and made me want to metagame, the way sparklies over a bunch of dead corpses would.  I can't be the only one who is incapable of moving forward without looting every single corpse, at the end of every single fight.

[BeatoSama]

syllogi wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

syllogi wrote...
I chose those lines, and would have continued to assume that that was the "correct" way to play the romances, if I hadn't read these forums and learned differently.

 

Why not just, I dunno, RP your way through it. If I'm playing Douchebag Hawke, yeah then I try hitting that asap. If playing NiceHawke, just sympathy, no flirting. If the latter doesn't result in a romance in that PT, so be it. 

Sometimes I do do that, and I enjoy roleplaying characters in different ways...but I also like to see as much content as possible, unless I do something like let Isabela run away forever and don't realize until mid Act 3 that she's never coming back.  I don't mind spoilers at all, but I'm not sitting around with a strategy guide.  So if I think I have to choose the heart icons to not lock out the Anders romance, I will click the icons, no matter how OOC the lines.

Obviously, I learned my lesson, and in DA3 I won't make that assumption, but I'm sure many others would.  And if the flirts in Act 1 didn't "count" towards the romances, why did we need them at all?  It took me out of the story and made me want to metagame, the way sparklies over a bunch of dead corpses would.  I can't be the only one who is incapable of moving forward without looting every single corpse, at the end of every single fight.

They sort of count towards the romances I think. In the sense that the characters will acknowledge that you have flirted with them before. Merril and Anders react negatively if you sleep with a prostitute when you've flirted with them for example.
And I think Fenris has a come-on in act 2 if you have flirted with him in act 1 but if you haven't you have to flirt with him first.

Modifié par BeatoSama, 26 mars 2013 - 05:21 .

[New Display Name]

Maybe an icon for just flirting and an icon for confirming a relationship would be in order.