247 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

AlanC9 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

And Liara's WAY too low, considering there's only one way she can die.

That threw me at first, but I can see Liara's rate being real. A player who didn't import and blew off all scanning missions would need to do a bit under half of all sidequests to avoid squadmates getting vaporized. That's playing a perfect game, and I'd bet  that such a player probably wouldn't play a perfect game. (Maybe just do enough scans for the achievement, though, so it might balance out)

So maybe a very large percentage of players played a low-EMS game. I can see Liara being overrepresented on what's billed as the final mission -- popular/LI/Crucible expert. So she'd die a lot.

Of course, this is all speculation without  knowing how the death rate is calculated. But if it's true, ye gods..... what percentage of rage at ME3's endings comes from people who got low-EMS Destroy and thought that was all the ending there was? (Non-BSN rage, obviously)

That's the problem with data like this; the more you get, the more you want.

But in such a scenario (didn't import, blow off most scanning and sidemissions), wouldn't the default be Control though?

I thought the "fresh, no import" game had you SAVE the collector base which automatically meant that in a low EMS run, you would only have the option for Control.

Destroy actually requires well, playing the game if you do a non-import.

Anyone remember/know what the default non-import situation is with the collector base?

[Barquiel]

AlanC9 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

And Liara's WAY too low, considering there's only one way she can die.

That threw me at first, but I can see Liara's rate being real. A player who didn't import and blew off all scanning missions would need to do a bit under half of all sidequests to avoid squadmates getting vaporized. That's playing a perfect game, and I'd bet  that such a player probably wouldn't play a perfect game. (Maybe just do enough scans for the achievement, though, so it might balance out)

So maybe a very large percentage of players played a low-EMS game. I can see Liara being overrepresented on what's billed as the final mission -- popular/LI/Crucible expert. So she'd die a lot.

Of course, this is all speculation without  knowing how the death rate is calculated. But if it's true, ye gods..... what percentage of rage at ME3's endings comes from people who got low-EMS Destroy and thought that was all the ending there was? (Non-BSN rage, obviously)

That's the problem with data like this; the more you get, the more you want.

I always thought that all characters die if you have a low enough EMS that your two squaddies die during the beam run. At least you don't get a memorial scene...implying everyone on the Normandy is dead. The other characters just die off-screen, I suppose. I think it's some gameplay statistic, that's the only explanation imo.

Modifié par Barquiel, 26 mars 2013 - 12:42 .

[Riot Inducer]

Pretty much everything on that infographic says that a lot of people didn't play ME1 or ME2. People are saying that about 50% of people imported games in ME2? Well if you follow that than up to 50% of the imports to ME3 were with default ME1 outcomes (based on starting in ME2) and more than likely default Shepards as well. This is supported by the fact that over half of the people didn't get to meet Wrex in ME3. The relatively popularity of Ashley & Kaidan also supports that a lot of people made default male sheps in ME2 or ME3. Hell, even the class popularity list supports this, given that Soldier is the default class and has over twice the popularity of the second place class.

[Ieldra]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
 WOW... a lot of people cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

Unsurprising considering how much it was presented as the right thing to do, against all common sense.

[George Costanza]

Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

[Ieldra]

Riot Inducer wrote...
Pretty much everything on that infographic says that a lot of people didn't play ME1 or ME2. People are saying that about 50% of people imported games in ME2? Well if you follow that than up to 50% of the imports to ME3 were with default ME1 outcomes (based on starting in ME2) and more than likely default Shepards as well. This is supported by the fact that over half of the people didn't get to meet Wrex in ME3. The relatively popularity of Ashley & Kaidan also supports that a lot of people made default male sheps in ME2 or ME3. Hell, even the class popularity list supports this, given that Soldier is the default class and has over twice the popularity of the second place class.

I'd say that the 64% of people who didn't meet Wrex in ME3 is a good indication of import percentages, since I assume that the percentage of people who killed Wrex in ME1 was negligible - it makes little sense to kill him if you can convince him, which is easy. 

Which means: 50% imports from ME1 to ME2, and 72% imports from ME2 to ME3. Result: 36% trilogy players, add one or two % for the people who killed Wrex in ME1 and imported. Which is actually pretty good, considering that playing ME1 can be something of a chore these days.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 mars 2013 - 02:13 .

[Ieldra]

George Costanza wrote...
Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

With Wreav in charge (the high percentage of that scenario triggered my comment), yes it was. Even with Wrex in charge, it's a high-risk gamble. Can you really trust the krogan to keep their population in check?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 mars 2013 - 02:15 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

George Costanza wrote...
Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

With Wreav in charge (the high percentage of that scenario triggered my comment), yes it was. Even with Wrex in charge, it's a high-risk gamble. Can you really trust the krogan to keep their population in check?

I have both Wrex and Eve, so that mitigates some things. The krogan seem to have been retconned to be heading towards imminent extinction if the genophage isn't cured, so that's something I'd want to avoid. I need the krogan to oppose the Reapers, and won't gamble their allegiance on them not finding out if it means the potential for the turians not joining in. Finally, Control renders the threat moot.

[Barquiel]

Ieldra2 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
 WOW... a lot of people cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

Unsurprising considering how much it was presented as the right thing to do, against all common sense.

That statistic surprised me...especially because Wreav doesn't even try to hide his intentions.

[SimonTheFrog]

Ieldra2 wrote...

George Costanza wrote...
Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

With Wreav in charge (the high percentage of that scenario triggered my comment), yes it was. Even with Wrex in charge, it's a high-risk gamble. Can you really trust the krogan to keep their population in check?

Lol, you can't apply real-world estimations to the Krogans.
The Krogans will multiply as fast as BioWare wants them to.

The player has to decide what feels best with-in the context of a BioWare game, not with-in the context of real-world ethics.

Applying the Krogan dilemma to real-world ethics doesn't work, because they are a product of imagination. There is no way to know "what they gonna do in the future".

[Getorex]

George Costanza wrote...

Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

Actually, if you listen to virtually all other krogan EXCEPT Wrex and Eve, then it is common sense to NOT cure the genophage.  Truly, it is only Wrex and Eve that makes curing the genophage a decent or valid thing to do.  Virtually ALL other krogan talk of making more and more war, flooding the galaxy, making the rest of the galaxy tremble before their great hoards, etc.  As I played and listened to that I kept thinking, "Curing the genophage is nuts" until and unless I have Wrex and Eve together showing there's ANOTHER krogan future that doesn't involve hoards of killing krogan armies running rampant over the other races. 

They DID seem to retcon the genophage too.  In ME1 and ME2 it merely stabilized krogan population and, in ME2, it seemed that the krogan were naturally adapting to the genophage and beginning to increase their birthrate without a cure (hence the reason Mordin did a revamp on the genophage to make it fully effective again).  If it had been left at that AND given the disturbing pronouncements by all other krogans about their future I would have been fine with leaving the genophage in place.  Instead it seemed that the genophage became more something that was wiping the krogan away rather than simply reducing fertility to prevent overwhelming birthrates. 

I alway cure the genophage because I have Wrex and Eve at the helm.  If it had been Wreav...no cure from me.

[Bleachrude]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

George Costanza wrote...
Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

With Wreav in charge (the high percentage of that scenario triggered my comment), yes it was. Even with Wrex in charge, it's a high-risk gamble. Can you really trust the krogan to keep their population in check?

Lol, you can't apply real-world estimations to the Krogans.
The Krogans will multiply as fast as BioWare wants them to.

The player has to decide what feels best with-in the context of a BioWare game, not with-in the context of real-world ethics.

Applying the Krogan dilemma to real-world ethics doesn't work, because they are a product of imagination. There is no way to know "what they gonna do in the future".

That...makes no sense.

The game EXPLICITLY tells you what Wreav is going to do ...there's no "gotcha" moment with Wreav...with Wrex, you have to take a chance that he will be able to reform the krogans

But Wreav?

Seriously, listen to what Eve says about Wreav and what her plan with the rest of the females is...listen to Mordin when he interacts with Wreav.

(I just remembered something else...it's possible to NOT recruit Wrex in ME1....same thing with Garrus.)

[SimonTheFrog]

Getorex wrote...

George Costanza wrote...

Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

Actually, if you listen to virtually all other krogan EXCEPT Wrex and Eve, then it is common sense to NOT cure the genophage.  Truly, it is only Wrex and Eve that makes curing the genophage a decent or valid thing to do.  Virtually ALL other krogan talk of making more and more war, flooding the galaxy, making the rest of the galaxy tremble before their great hoards, etc.  As I played and listened to that I kept thinking, "Curing the genophage is nuts" until and unless I have Wrex and Eve together showing there's ANOTHER krogan future that doesn't involve hoards of killing krogan armies running rampant over the other races. 

They DID seem to retcon the genophage too.  In ME1 and ME2 it merely stabilized krogan population and, in ME2, it seemed that the krogan were naturally adapting to the genophage and beginning to increase their birthrate without a cure (hence the reason Mordin did a revamp on the genophage to make it fully effective again).  If it had been left at that AND given the disturbing pronouncements by all other krogans about their future I would have been fine with leaving the genophage in place.  Instead it seemed that the genophage became more something that was wiping the krogan away rather than simply reducing fertility to prevent overwhelming birthrates. 

I alway cure the genophage because I have Wrex and Eve at the helm.  If it had been Wreav...no cure from me.

Well, the Krogans that are alive "today" (as in during Sheps life-time) haven't attacked the galaxy yet.
They are being persecuted for something they haven't commited.

That's against our usual understanding of justice.

[Ieldra]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

George Costanza wrote...
Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

With Wreav in charge (the high percentage of that scenario triggered my comment), yes it was. Even with Wrex in charge, it's a high-risk gamble. Can you really trust the krogan to keep their population in check?

Lol, you can't apply real-world estimations to the Krogans.
The Krogans will multiply as fast as BioWare wants them to.

The player has to decide what feels best with-in the context of a BioWare game, not with-in the context of real-world ethics.

Applying the Krogan dilemma to real-world ethics doesn't work, because they are a product of imagination. There is no way to know "what they gonna do in the future".

Bullsh*t. If you roleplay, you decide according to in-world logic, and that tells you curing the genophage carries a high risk. There is precedence after all.

If you decide on the reasoning "This is a Bioware game, and that means whatever I feel best about will likely have a good outcome" you're missing the point. Also, yes, Bioware tends to write things that way, but the plain fact that things most emphatically don't work that way in any kind of human-appropriate decision-making environment makes such a reasoning meaningless. Plainly, the feel-good morality presented by Bioware in their stories is pandering to a delusion. The only odd thing is that they chose the ending to change that stance.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 mars 2013 - 02:33 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

I have both Wrex and Eve, so that mitigates some things. The krogan seem to have been retconned to be heading towards imminent extinction if the genophage isn't cured, so that's something I'd want to avoid. I need the krogan to oppose the Reapers, and won't gamble their allegiance on them not finding out if it means the potential for the turians not joining in. Finally, Control renders the threat moot.

. It's not a retcon.  Wrex mentions in ME1 that the Krogan won't last another 200 years unless something changes.

[Obadiah]

Ieldra2 wrote...

George Costanza wrote...
Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

With Wreav in charge (the high percentage of that scenario triggered my comment), yes it was. Even with Wrex in charge, it's a high-risk gamble. Can you really trust the krogan to keep their population in check?

I don't so much trust them to control their population, but after the 1000 year billion dead-babies punishment they got the last time, I trust them to not start a war, manage their resources responsibly, and seek peaceful co-existence with other races.

If they get out of hand again, the biological weapon precident has been set, and the Krogan know it. If they start another rebellion they'll either be sterilized again or wiped out entirely.

[Steelcan]

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
 WOW... a lot of people cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

Unsurprising considering how much it was presented as the right thing to do, against all common sense.

That statistic surprised me...especially because Wreav doesn't even try to hide his intentions.

. It's because too many people just go with "paragon" decisions without stopping to think about them.  I'm guessing that's why people saved the geth more than quarians.

[Getorex]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I have both Wrex and Eve, so that mitigates some things. The krogan seem to have been retconned to be heading towards imminent extinction if the genophage isn't cured, so that's something I'd want to avoid. I need the krogan to oppose the Reapers, and won't gamble their allegiance on them not finding out if it means the potential for the turians not joining in. Finally, Control renders the threat moot.

. It's not a retcon.  Wrex mentions in ME1 that the Krogan won't last another 200 years unless something changes.

And Mordin, an expert on the genophage, states in ME2 that it is a misconception that the genophage is causing genocide and killing the krogan.  He clearly states that it simply stabilizing their fertility so it is at pre-industrial levels and that, otherwise, it is WAY above replacement level and into rabbits breading like...well, rabbits...level otherwise.

[Getorex]

Steelcan wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
 WOW... a lot of people cured the genophage with Wreav in charge.

Unsurprising considering how much it was presented as the right thing to do, against all common sense.

That statistic surprised me...especially because Wreav doesn't even try to hide his intentions.

. It's because too many people just go with "paragon" decisions without stopping to think about them.  I'm guessing that's why people saved the geth more than quarians.

I only save the geth if I can do it while NOT killing the Quarians.  If I have to go either/or, the Quarians win.

[animedreamer]

 I refuse to believe Vega was that popular. Kaiden sure I can believe that but right above him in my opinion was Vega. I never use that guy unless its forced ie Mars and Palaven.

Alot of people didn't save Wrex, or didn't play ME2 Genesis to import a save into Me3 to save Wrex so they ended up with Wreav by default I think (I never played ME3 without a import), so that's one reason why Wreav and the Genocure are probably so high.

Also I only save the Geth if I can save the Quarians at the same time, yet it's easy to miss that one crucial mission with the databank dive into Geth Memory or whatever it was, so im not surprised a lot of people didn't get the option to save both people, that's one of the few hard curves to navigate. 

Modifié par animedreamer, 26 mars 2013 - 02:46 .

[Steelcan]

Getorex wrote...


And Mordin, an expert on the genophage, states in ME2 that it is a misconception that the genophage is causing genocide and killing the krogan.  He clearly states that it simply stabilizing their fertility so it is at pre-industrial levels and that, otherwise, it is WAY above replacement level and into rabbits breading like...well, rabbits...level otherwise.

. It may be possible in theory for the Krogan to be stable with the genophage.  But it isn't possible in practice.  Krogan culture prevents it,

[Getorex]

animedreamer wrote...

 I refuse to believe Vega was that popular. Kaiden sure I can believe that but right above him in my opinion was Vega. I never use that guy unless its forced ie Mars and Palaven.

Ugh.  Vega.  He's...OK...but I'd not weep if he wasn't there. 

One thing you need to take into account: the popularity of CRAP TV "reality" shows like Jersey Shore, the Bachelor, etc.  There are a LOT of fools and morons out there and Vega IS directly out of Jersey Shore. 

[Getorex]

Steelcan wrote...

Getorex wrote...


And Mordin, an expert on the genophage, states in ME2 that it is a misconception that the genophage is causing genocide and killing the krogan.  He clearly states that it simply stabilizing their fertility so it is at pre-industrial levels and that, otherwise, it is WAY above replacement level and into rabbits breading like...well, rabbits...level otherwise.

. It may be possible in theory for the Krogan to be stable with the genophage.  But it isn't possible in practice.  Krogan culture prevents it,

But Mordin was involved in revamping the genophage because the krogan were adapting to the original and their birthrates were climbing. 

I'd have been fine with leaving it at that and letting their birthrate do a slow climb (and see where that led) over rejuvinating the genophage.  If left at that I'd also see no real reason to cure the genophage: it's curing itself but in a nice sedate fashion that allows you to watch and see what slowly increasing krogan numbers leads to.  If more violence and war, revamp the genophage.  If control and reason prevails, consider curing the genophage later.

Modifié par Getorex, 26 mars 2013 - 02:49 .

[Exile Isan]

I used James a lot. James and Garrus and my Vanguard what an awesome team.

[SimonTheFrog]

Ieldra2 wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

George Costanza wrote...
Curing the Genophage was against all common sense?

With Wreav in charge (the high percentage of that scenario triggered my comment), yes it was. Even with Wrex in charge, it's a high-risk gamble. Can you really trust the krogan to keep their population in check?

Lol, you can't apply real-world estimations to the Krogans.
The Krogans will multiply as fast as BioWare wants them to.

The player has to decide what feels best with-in the context of a BioWare game, not with-in the context of real-world ethics.

Applying the Krogan dilemma to real-world ethics doesn't work, because they are a product of imagination. There is no way to know "what they gonna do in the future".

Bullsh*t. If you roleplay, you decide according to in-world logic, and that tells you curing the genophage carries a high risk. There is precedence after all.

If you decide on the reasoning "This is a Bioware game, and that means whatever I feel best about will likely have a good outcome" you're missing the point. Also, yes, Bioware tends to write things that way, but the plain fact that things most emphatically don't work that way in any kind of human-appropriate decision-making environment makes such a reasoning meaningless. Plainly, the feel-good morality presented by Bioware in their stories is pandering to a delusion. The only odd thing is that they chose the ending to change that stance.

I agree to the "in-world logic". But the future behavior of the Krogan race doesn't depend on logic, even with-in the ME universe. They have a psyche and emotional scars but they also have a brain (several in fact). Whether ratio or emotio will get the better of them can't be predicted by "logic".

It's an unknown.

So, yeah, risk-management.

But like i said in a later post, our current ethical approach to crimes that are not yet done is to not punish them in advance. Hence, the genophage is an unethical persecution of a crime that has not yet been commited.

That's why it feels correct to heal the Krogans.

In this case, as in most other cases too, BioWare is aligning to most western moral systems. Which is the easy thing to do as it won't alienate the players.

But also, many situations and dialogs in ME are extremely simple, dull and gamey. But I think this is a different problem completely