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[robertthebard]

Made Nightwing wrote...

So...you think she's a racist, and you find her religion and right leaning perspective offensive. And you have a whole bunch of anecdotes that back this up. That's really all you needed to say.

Ashley cannot be both a racist and a non-racist depending on perspective, that is a patronising, intellectually bankrupt argument that I have never tolerated, like a friend who once tried to defend Jane Fonda, saying that her actions in the Vietnam War were only right or wrong depending on which side you were on (they were wrong, very wrong). Let's be clear on definitions here.Let's take a look at the Oxford Dictionary: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

What does Ashley say? She says: "I don't think humans are superior." "People will always look out for their own first, it's not racism, not really." (Saying this to excuse alien attitudes, not her own) "Tali's like a little sister to me." These phrases speak strongly against ideals of racism, but do her actions back them up?

She willingly serves alongside aliens onboard the Normandy. She willingly serves alongisde the salarians on Virmire, and wil even lead them effectively to their target if Kirrahe is killed. She accepts an appointment by aliens to an organisation that requires her to be under the authority of aliens. She will be in tears over the death of Tali and an entire species of aliens. She will show constant hostility and hatred to two pro-human/anti-alien organisations,

So, let's take a look back at my argument. I stated a premise: Ashley is not racist.You stated a premise: Ashley is racist.

I have provided evidence: Writer's vision, statements from character, actions taken by the character, all of which is within the game and part of the canon. You have provided evidence: Personal perspective, personal bias, personal anecdotes.

By your viewpoint, Hitler could be proven to be not a racist 'from a different viewpoint and background'. His words and actions confirmed his racism, it cannot be disputed. Ashley's words and actions confirm the opposite.

Further, your refusal to consider that you are wrong is a sign of academic ignorance. If you were to produce a statement where Ashley said, 'Humans are superior because God made us.", "Turians are morally bankrupt, the whole species." Then I would change my mind, because, quite clearly, she would be intrinsically racist, beyond any personal interpretation.

If she said, "The quarians are responsible for the geth mess (like wiping out my whole unit and killing my best friends) I hope your people are properly contrite." Then I would say she is racist, but wait, she does say that, GARRUS does. You cite subjectivism as a defence, but in a day and age where relativism is losing its credibility, your argument is academically undefendable.

Man, that semester of philosophy of science just keeps giving me value for money.

Further note: An interesting thing you should mention Vietnam. My best mate is second generation Vietnamese. His mother is the least-Western person you could find. His house is practically my second home, and I love his mother to bits. Yet I maintain a professional distrust of the Vietnamese government, their armed forces, any mercenaries that have worked for them recently, etc. I would maintain a professional distrust of anyone imigrating from Vietnam who has a record of service in their military or police services and was attempting to gain employment in our military or intelligence services. Tell me, am I racist?

Just to put this into perspective here; Ash didn't willingly serve with anyone.  She is a Lt. in the Alliance, and she follows orders.  I don't know if the Alliance has an equivalent, but it's logical to assume they do, but according to the UCMJ in our own military, disobeying a lawful order is grounds for court martial.  A court martial heaps even more dishonor upon her family, which is where her attitude comes from anyway.  So whether she's racist or not, serving with aliens isn't a point to issue to say she's not, she's simply following orders.

Regarding your note, if you have to ask the question...  You see, I don't feel the need to point to who I may or may not be friends with to justify whether or not I'm racist.  The easiest way for me to spot a racist is looking at anyone that starts a sentence with "I'm not racist, but...".

[MetioricTest]

^wow calm down

[Iakus]

robertthebard wrote...

Just to put this into perspective here; Ash didn't willingly serve with anyone.  She is a Lt. in the Alliance, and she follows orders.  I don't know if the Alliance has an equivalent, but it's logical to assume they do, but according to the UCMJ in our own military, disobeying a lawful order is grounds for court martial.  A court martial heaps even more dishonor upon her family, which is where her attitude comes from anyway.  So whether she's racist or not, serving with aliens isn't a point to issue to say she's not, she's simply following orders.

On Virmire when the time comes to choose someone to go with the STG, Ash is practically jumping up and down going "Mememe! Pick me!"  So yeah I'd say she volunteered in that case.

Regarding your note, if you have to ask the question...  You see, I don't feel the need to point to who I may or may not be friends with to justify whether or not I'm racist.  The easiest way for me to spot a racist is looking at anyone that starts a sentence with "I'm not racist, but...".

So saying "I'm not a racist" means you're a racist?  Talk about confirmation bias...

[Xilizhra]

So saying "I'm not a racist" means you're a racist? Talk about confirmation bias...

It's the "but" afterwards that's the problem. Effectively, if you weren't racist, why would you need to say something that required that appendage in the first place?

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

So saying "I'm not a racist" means you're a racist? Talk about confirmation bias...

It's the "but" afterwards that's the problem. Effectively, if you weren't racist, why would you need to say something that required that appendage in the first place?

Because there are some people that misinterpret what is said, erroneously or willfully?

[CronoDragoon]

I don't see Ashley as a racist in ME1. Her philosophy is that everyone is out for themselves, whether it be races, political groups, or whatever. So the Alliance has to look out for their own best interests, as well.

[robertthebard]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So saying "I'm not a racist" means you're a racist? Talk about confirmation bias...

It's the "but" afterwards that's the problem. Effectively, if you weren't racist, why would you need to say something that required that appendage in the first place?

Because there are some people that misinterpret what is said, erroneously or willfully?

Such as you implying it's confirmation bias?  If one isn't racist, why does one need to state that they aren't, just before saying something that, apparently, will appear racist, hence it's "I'm not racist, but...".  However, to stick with this theme, Kaidan is also jumping up and down to go.  Ashley's reasoning is logical, however, as she believes Kaidan knows more about the bomb that she does.  This, of course, completely disregards the point, that she's not willingly serving with aliens.  I can't state emphatically that she's not, but, as I said, it's not something we can point to and emphatically say "See, Ash isn't racist, she's working with aliens".  She really doesn't have a logical choice, it's work with the existing crew, or be court martialed.

[Iakus]

robertthebard wrote...
 However, to stick with this theme, Kaidan is also jumping up and down to go.  Ashley's reasoning is logical, however, as she believes Kaidan knows more about the bomb that she does.  This, of course, completely disregards the point, that she's not willingly serving with aliens.  I can't state emphatically that she's not, but, as I said, it's not something we can point to and emphatically say "See, Ash isn't racist, she's working with aliens".  She really doesn't have a logical choice, it's work with the existing crew, or be court martialed.

So let me get this straight:

If she expresses concern about foreign (alien) nationals having unrestricted access to the Normandy's systems, but is willing to defer to Shepard's judgement,  then she's a racist.

But if she volunteers to go on a dangerous assignment with a salarian STG team, even insisting she go over the objections of a superior (human) officer, then it's meaningless?

But while we're talking about "useless evidence" Let's turn this around:  Ash never willingly served with aliens because the "Williams curse" has dumped her on backwater human colonies with no alien presence.  She's never had the opportunity to serve with aliens before

[AresKeith]

So because she doesn't fully trust aliens prior to ME1 because she believes everyone looks out for themselves it makes her racist?

[robertthebard]

iakus wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
 However, to stick with this theme, Kaidan is also jumping up and down to go.  Ashley's reasoning is logical, however, as she believes Kaidan knows more about the bomb that she does.  This, of course, completely disregards the point, that she's not willingly serving with aliens.  I can't state emphatically that she's not, but, as I said, it's not something we can point to and emphatically say "See, Ash isn't racist, she's working with aliens".  She really doesn't have a logical choice, it's work with the existing crew, or be court martialed.

So let me get this straight:

If she expresses concern about foreign (alien) nationals having unrestricted access to the Normandy's systems, but is willing to defer to Shepard's judgement,  then she's a racist.

But if she volunteers to go on a dangerous assignment with a salarian STG team, even insisting she go over the objections of a superior (human) officer, then it's meaningless?

But while we're talking about "useless evidence" Let's turn this around:  Ash never willingly served with aliens because the "Williams curse" has dumped her on backwater human colonies with no alien presence.  She's never had the opportunity to serve with aliens before

Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading to communicate, I would suggest you reread my posts for the answer to your assertions.

[Iakus]

robertthebard wrote...

iakus wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
 However, to stick with this theme, Kaidan is also jumping up and down to go.  Ashley's reasoning is logical, however, as she believes Kaidan knows more about the bomb that she does.  This, of course, completely disregards the point, that she's not willingly serving with aliens.  I can't state emphatically that she's not, but, as I said, it's not something we can point to and emphatically say "See, Ash isn't racist, she's working with aliens".  She really doesn't have a logical choice, it's work with the existing crew, or be court martialed.

So let me get this straight:

If she expresses concern about foreign (alien) nationals having unrestricted access to the Normandy's systems, but is willing to defer to Shepard's judgement,  then she's a racist.

But if she volunteers to go on a dangerous assignment with a salarian STG team, even insisting she go over the objections of a superior (human) officer, then it's meaningless?

But while we're talking about "useless evidence" Let's turn this around:  Ash never willingly served with aliens because the "Williams curse" has dumped her on backwater human colonies with no alien presence.  She's never had the opportunity to serve with aliens before

Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading to communicate, I would suggest you reread my posts for the answer to your assertions.

You're saying her lack of choice in assignments means her working with aliens cannot be used as evidence that she is not racist.

However, I say her attitude can be used as such.  She's concerned about aliens having access to the Normandy's systems.  But she does not push the issue further.  She won't even directly voice it unless Shepard tells her to speak her mind.  Similarly, she shows a great deal of enthusiasm at the prospect of working alongside the STG, when simply remaining silent would have been just as valid a reaction.

[Han Shot First]

Ashley isn't racist. That's just BSN exaggeration.

One thing that has always held true on the BSN, is that when characters are bashed their personality traits tend to get exaggerated and blown way out of proportion. In Ashley's case, by BSN standards this means that the one or two instances where she briefly mentions believing in a higher power or an afterlife, makes her a bible-thumping zealot. By BSN standards it also means that her slight distrust of aliens aboard a top secret Alliance warship makes her a foaming-at-the-mouth bigot.

Of course neither characterization of her stands up to scrutiny.

Her brief mention of religious faith is not in an obnoxious 'you-will-believe-what-I-believe' context, and she is not preaching at all. She merely states what she believes. Additionally it is unknown if Ashley even regularly practices any religion, or if she is like a great many people who will profess a believe in a deity or an afterlife when asked, but who don't really attend religious services.

As for Ashley being a 'racist,' if brought to the Terra Firma rally she is more hostile than even Liara, who is an alien and a target of Terra Firma's bigotry. Ashley makes it clear that she finds their racist platform something of an embarrasment for humanity. Additionally she can have an elevator conversation with Tali, where she'll state that she hopes Tali's contributions against Saren will be recognized and help end anti-Quarian bigotry in Council space. Ashley may have some lingering distrust of aliens due to the First Contact War and her grandfather's role in it, but she's clearly not a racist.

[robertthebard]

iakus wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

iakus wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
 However, to stick with this theme, Kaidan is also jumping up and down to go.  Ashley's reasoning is logical, however, as she believes Kaidan knows more about the bomb that she does.  This, of course, completely disregards the point, that she's not willingly serving with aliens.  I can't state emphatically that she's not, but, as I said, it's not something we can point to and emphatically say "See, Ash isn't racist, she's working with aliens".  She really doesn't have a logical choice, it's work with the existing crew, or be court martialed.

So let me get this straight:

If she expresses concern about foreign (alien) nationals having unrestricted access to the Normandy's systems, but is willing to defer to Shepard's judgement,  then she's a racist.

But if she volunteers to go on a dangerous assignment with a salarian STG team, even insisting she go over the objections of a superior (human) officer, then it's meaningless?

But while we're talking about "useless evidence" Let's turn this around:  Ash never willingly served with aliens because the "Williams curse" has dumped her on backwater human colonies with no alien presence.  She's never had the opportunity to serve with aliens before

Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading to communicate, I would suggest you reread my posts for the answer to your assertions.

You're saying her lack of choice in assignments means her working with aliens cannot be used as evidence that she is not racist.

However, I say her attitude can be used as such.  She's concerned about aliens having access to the Normandy's systems.  But she does not push the issue further.  She won't even directly voice it unless Shepard tells her to speak her mind.  Similarly, she shows a great deal of enthusiasm at the prospect of working alongside the STG, when simply remaining silent would have been just as valid a reaction.

The point was, I was neither confirming or denying her being a racist.  Just that she was following orders.  I neither know, nor care, if she is or not.

[Xilizhra]

One thing that has always held true on the BSN, is that when characters are bashed their personality traits tend to get exaggerated and blown way out of proportion. In Ashley's case, by BSN standards this means that the one or two instances where she briefly mentions believing in a higher power or an afterlife, makes her a bible-thumping zealot. By BSN standards it also means that her slight distrust of aliens aboard a top secret Alliance warship makes her a foaming-at-the-mouth bigot.

You do know I've said over and over again that her xenophobia is mild, yes?

As for Ashley being a 'racist,' if brought to the Terra Firma rally she is more hostile than even Liara, who is an alien and a target of Terra Firma's bigotry. Ashley makes it clear that she finds their racist platform something of an embarrasment for humanity. Additionally she can have an elevator conversation with Tali, where she'll state that she hopes Tali's contributions against Saren will be recognized and help end anti-Quarian bigotry in Council space. Ashley may have some lingering distrust of aliens due to the First Contact War and her grandfather's role in it, but she's clearly not a racist.

Against quarians? Maybe not. Against turians, asari and especially geth? Yes.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...
Against quarians? Maybe not. Against turians, asari and especially geth? Yes.

Aside from Ash being concerned about Garrus having access to all teh Normandy's systems, I don't recall her ever saying anything against turians, in general or specific (seige of Shanxi notwithstanding)

Her only concerns with asari stem from Liara being A) Benezia's daughter, and therefore not necessarilly trustworthy and for male Sheps, a potential romantic rival.  Again she never says anything against asari otherwise.

Geth, yes it's true she doesn't care for them much, in ME1 or ME3.  But that's understandable given what she witnessed on Eden Prime.  if you'll recall, Jacob is also a survivor of that attack and wanted to throw Legion out the airlock even before Javik popularized the phrase.

[AresKeith]

@Xilizhra and there you go again

[mtmercydave09]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I don't see Ashley as a racist in ME1. Her philosophy is that everyone is out for themselves, whether it be races, political groups, or whatever. So the Alliance has to look out for their own best interests, as well.

That's exactly how I saw it, and from seeing how the Council acted all 3 games, she's not exactly wrong in that belief.

[Iakus]

mtmercydave09 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I don't see Ashley as a racist in ME1. Her philosophy is that everyone is out for themselves, whether it be races, political groups, or whatever. So the Alliance has to look out for their own best interests, as well.

That's exactly how I saw it, and from seeing how the Council acted all 3 games, she's not exactly wrong in that belief.

+1

[mtmercydave09]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Against quarians? Maybe not. Against turians, asari and especially geth? Yes.

Aside from Ash being concerned about Garrus having access to all teh Normandy's systems, I don't recall her ever saying anything against turians, in general or specific (seige of Shanxi notwithstanding)

Her only concerns with asari stem from Liara being A) Benezia's daughter, and therefore not necessarilly trustworthy and for male Sheps, a potential romantic rival.  Again she never says anything against asari otherwise.

Geth, yes it's true she doesn't care for them much, in ME1 or ME3.  But that's understandable given what she witnessed on Eden Prime.  if you'll recall, Jacob is also a survivor of that attack and wanted to throw Legion out the airlock even before Javik popularized the phrase.

Agreed, having lost the whole 212 other than her, I wouldn't think anyone would have a great opinion of the Geth.  I don't recall her saying anything against Turians or Asari either, at least nothing racist.  

[Han Shot First]

There are two statements by Ashley that are generaly used as 'evidence' of her being a racist. The first is a random comment on the Citadel about not being able to tell the difference between the aliens and the animals. The problem is that this statement was only supposed to trigger in response to viewing Keepers, and it is a bug that it is said without any context. And the Keepers are little more than animals. They appear to lack sapience, hence there is nothing 'racist' about pointing out that fact.

The second is Ashley's overall hostility towards Liara that manifests in some of her dialogue throughout Mass Effect 1. The problem is people are not examining the context in which this hostility surfaces. Is it an expression of racial animus, or just plain old-fashioned jealousy? Clearly it is the latter, as Ashley doesn't express similar hostility towards Wrex, Tali, or even Garrus. Had that hostility been motivated by racism, Garrus likely would have gotten the worst of it, considering he's Turian and it was the Turians her grandfather surrendered to. Ashley was snarky with Liara because she was an attractive woman who was a potential rival for Shepard's romantic affections.

While Ashley has a similar attitude towards Liara even if Shepard is female, this is most likely a holdover from the days when Ashley was going to be an LI for a Shepard of either gender. The romance dialogue for Ashley and Fem Shep was recorded, which probably means that Ashley being an LI for either Shep was cut fairly late in development. At any rate, you could still chalk that up to Ashley just being catty out of jealousy towards another attractive woman. Such things aren't exactly unheard of.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 avril 2013 - 04:23 .

[Steelcan]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

A point worth noting is that there is only one squad member who approves of Terra Firma's platform in ME1, and it isn't Ashley. It's Wrex.

. Ashley is a pro human who doesn't like pro-human groups.  Logic?

[mtmercydave09]

Han Shot First wrote...

There are two statements by Ashley that are generaly used as 'evidence' of her being a racist. The first is a random comment on the Citadel about not being able to tell the difference between the aliens and the animals. The problem is that this statement was only supposed to trigger in response to viewing Keepers, and it is a bug that it is said without any context. And the Keepers are little more than animals. They appear to lack sapience, hence there is nothing 'racist' about pointing out that fact.

The second is Ashley's overall hostility towards Liara that manifests in some of her dialogue throughout Mass Effect 1. The problem is people are not examining the context in which this hostility surfaces. Is it an expression of racial animus, or just plain old-fashioned jealousy? Clearly it is the latter, as Ashley doesn't express similar hostility towards Wrex, Tali, or even Garrus. Had that hostility been motivated by racism, Garrus likely would have gotten the worst of it, considering he's Turian and it was the Turians her grandfather surrendered to. Ashley was snarky with Liara because she was an attractive woman who was a potential rival for Shepard's romantic affections.

While Ashley has a similar attitude towards Liara even if Shepard is female, this is most likely a holdover from the days when Ashley was going to be an LI for a Shepard of either gender. The romance dialogue for Ashley and Fem Shep was recorded, which probably means that Ashley being an LI for either Shep was cut fairly late in development. At any rate, you could still chalk that up to Ashley just being catty out of jealousy towards another attractive woman. Such things aren't exactly unheard of.

Well said, that's exactly what I thought.  I'm not surprised Bioware didn't fix that bug with her line supposed to be referring to only the Keepers, but that's a whole other topic.

[Han Shot First]

Steelcan wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

A point worth noting is that there is only one squad member who approves of Terra Firma's platform in ME1, and it isn't Ashley. It's Wrex.

. Ashley is a pro human who doesn't like pro-human groups.  Logic?

Terra Firma and Cerberus are pro human in the same way that the N-zi party was 'pro German.'

They are bigots. Ashley isn't.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 avril 2013 - 04:39 .

[Xilizhra]

The second is Ashley's overall hostility towards Liara that manifests in some of her dialogue throughout Mass Effect 1. The problem is people are not examining the context in which this hostility surfaces. Is it an expression of racial animus, or just plain old-fashioned jealousy? Clearly it is the latter, as Ashley doesn't express similar hostility towards Wrex, Tali, or even Garrus. Had that hostility been motivated by racism, Garrus likely would have gotten the worst of it, considering he's Turian and it was the Turians her grandfather surrendered to. Ashley was snarky with Liara because she was an attractive woman who was a potential rival for Shepard's romantic affections.

While Ashley has a similar attitude towards Liara even if Shepard is female, this is most likely a holdover from the days when Ashley was going to be an LI for a Shepard of either gender. The romance dialogue for Ashley and Fem Shep was recorded, which probably means that Ashley being an LI for either Shep was cut fairly late in development. At any rate, you could still chalk that up to Ashley just being catty out of jealousy towards another attractive woman. Such things aren't exactly unheard of.

If that were all, she wouldn't have used racially charged statements to express it.