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[Han Shot First]

She does make one racially charged comment in expressing it, but you can't judge a character (or real people for that matter) by a single statement. You have take into consideration the sum of all they've said and done, and in the grand scheme of things Ashley isn't a racist. The motivating factor for that statement appears to be jealousy rather than racial animus, she just used a very politically incorrect way to express it.

The question to ask also is whether she would have reacted differently if Liara had instead been a human character, who was similarly attractive, and also a potential romantic rival.

I don't think she would have. Instead of the 'bug-eyed monster' comment she probably gets called a blonde bimbo, or something similar. The primary motivation for Ashley's politically incorrect snark was jealousy.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 avril 2013 - 04:50 .

[mtmercydave09]

Whether she's racist or not doesn't really matter to me, because over the course of the trilogy she does change for the better, even though Bioware didn't exactly give us much of a chance to see in ME2 & ME3.

[AresKeith]

@Xil the point






your head

[Ecrulis]

I think we all may need to calm down slightly, some people dislike Ashley, some people don't, some people think she's racist, some people don't, bickering back and forth isn't exactly going to change that.

Personally I liked Ash in 1 (my shepard was not fond of her though) disliked what little we saw of her in 2 (missed opportunity to see things really come to a head with the whole cerberus thing) and hated how much both VS harp on the whole cerberus thing (seriously while I'm headshotting cerberus troops, after I've voluntarily turned over the normandy, after I saved humanity from the collectors and blew up their base to keep it out of TIMs hands, but no, I could still be working for them.

The cerberus distrust arc in 3 is why I have a heavy dislike of both VS, ash more so and I can't really pinpoint why perhaps its the tone or something but Kaidan just seems more apologetic than her.

They should have solved the cerberus mistrust in 2 not carried it over into 3

Modifié par Ecrulis, 09 avril 2013 - 04:55 .

[mtmercydave09]

Ecrulis wrote...

I think we all may need to calm down slightly, some people dislike Ashley, some people don't, some people think she's racist, some people don't, bickering back and forth isn't exactly going to change that.

Personally I liked Ash in 1 (my shepard was not fond of her though) disliked what little we saw of her in 2 (missed opportunity to see things really come to a head with the whole cerberus thing) and hated how much both VS harp on the whole cerberus thing (seriously while I'm headshotting cerberus troops, after I've voluntarily turned over the normandy, after I saved humanity from the collectors and blew up their base to keep it out of TIMs hands, but no, I could still be working for them.

The cerberus distrust arc in 3 is why I have a heavy dislike of both VS, ash more so and I can't really pinpoint why perhaps its the tone or something but Kaidan just seems more apologetic than her.

They should have solved the cerberus mistrust in 2 not carried it over into 3

I agree with you completely.  I hated how little the VS was in 2, and how long it took to finally regain Ash's trust in ME3.  I didn't like that arc at all, but I suppose Bioware had to keep it in order to make the Cerberus Coup climax look better.  I would have rather the VS not be in the hospital half the game.

Ash is probably less apologetic because she's got more than distrust affecting her emotions, especially if you romanced her in ME1.  She's got pent up feelings of love and confusion that I think she tries to admit to on Mars (she gets cut off mid sentence when they find LIara), and also with Ash getting hurt it didn't help to resolve it.

Once in the hospital and getting Ash the book I'm sure all those trust issues went away, but then Udina played her by making her a Spectre, and as we know Ash takes the military and rank very seriously so she fell for whatever Udina wanted to do, thus resulting in Shep having to convince her again since she's so stubborn.

Modifié par mtmercydave09, 09 avril 2013 - 05:06 .

[Clayless]

It's hard to make a bad character worse.

I would say Citadel improved her, but she was radioactive dust by that stage so I couldn't comment.

[AresKeith]

Robosexual wrote...

It's hard to make a bad character worse.

I would say Citadel improved her, but she was radioactive dust by that stage so I couldn't comment.

and how did Citadel improve her?

[Demonique]

Wulfram wrote...

Demonique wrote...

Ash and Vega are one of the worst pairings in the game, Vega was seriously the only person BW could find to hook Ash up with?

Well, they need to be male, human, straight, unattached and not dead.  Who are the other options? 

Zaeed?

She wouldn't necessarily have to have hooked up with a squaddie though.

Now that you mention it, I'd have liked a Zaeed/Ashley hookup.

CDR David Shepard wrote...

sammysoso wrote...

I don't know about all the "nail in the coffin" business, but Ash was definitely a weaker character in ME3.

The out of character "sexy" redesign really bothered me. She's a shadow of her former self, a shame because I really love the character.

I don't think her redesign is out of character at all...but her aforementioned actions are.

"You won't catch me dead in light armour, you can't outrun bullets"

"I'm real, I wear armour" a romanced Ashley if MShep romances Miranda in ME2

Sorry, but prancing around a battlefield in a catsuit is completely out of character given the above dialogue

Modifié par Demonique, 09 avril 2013 - 05:40 .

[Steelcan]

Han Shot First wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

A point worth noting is that there is only one squad member who approves of Terra Firma's platform in ME1, and it isn't Ashley. It's Wrex.

. Ashley is a pro human who doesn't like pro-human groups.  Logic?

Terra Firma and Cerberus are pro human in the same way that the N-zi party was 'pro German.'

They are bigots. Ashley isn't.

. TIM isn't a bigot either.  He never even considered denying the alien squadmates acces to the Normandy. Ashley did.  So she's more bigoted than the Cerberus leader.......

[Ecrulis]

mtmercydave09 wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

I think we all may need to calm down slightly, some people dislike Ashley, some people don't, some people think she's racist, some people don't, bickering back and forth isn't exactly going to change that.

Personally I liked Ash in 1 (my shepard was not fond of her though) disliked what little we saw of her in 2 (missed opportunity to see things really come to a head with the whole cerberus thing) and hated how much both VS harp on the whole cerberus thing (seriously while I'm headshotting cerberus troops, after I've voluntarily turned over the normandy, after I saved humanity from the collectors and blew up their base to keep it out of TIMs hands, but no, I could still be working for them.

The cerberus distrust arc in 3 is why I have a heavy dislike of both VS, ash more so and I can't really pinpoint why perhaps its the tone or something but Kaidan just seems more apologetic than her.

They should have solved the cerberus mistrust in 2 not carried it over into 3

I agree with you completely.  I hated how little the VS was in 2, and how long it took to finally regain Ash's trust in ME3.  I didn't like that arc at all, but I suppose Bioware had to keep it in order to make the Cerberus Coup climax look better.  I would have rather the VS not be in the hospital half the game.

Ash is probably less apologetic because she's got more than distrust affecting her emotions, especially if you romanced her in ME1.  She's got pent up feelings of love and confusion that I think she tries to admit to on Mars (she gets cut off mid sentence when they find LIara), and also with Ash getting hurt it didn't help to resolve it.

Once in the hospital and getting Ash the book I'm sure all those trust issues went away, but then Udina played her by making her a Spectre, and as we know Ash takes the military and rank very seriously so she fell for whatever Udina wanted to do, thus resulting in Shep having to convince her again since she's so stubborn.

I don't really think the VS was even needed in that situation, you could have had to swing by the hospital or something where the VS was held down by cerberus troops perhaps with thane backing him/her up hell I thought the whole VS injury was pointless and shut out that character for half the game.

[mtmercydave09]

I'm not sure the redesign of Ash in ME3 into being more "sexy" is really out of character for her. It's pretty well established that she has a girly side, so I can see her letting her hair down. It could also be a sign of her being more relaxed of where she is in her career, since she's not stuck as Gunnery Chief anymore and knows Shep is alive. Shep really is the one that keeps Ash going especially if you romance her.

[mtmercydave09]

Steelcan wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

A point worth noting is that there is only one squad member who approves of Terra Firma's platform in ME1, and it isn't Ashley. It's Wrex.

. Ashley is a pro human who doesn't like pro-human groups.  Logic?

Terra Firma and Cerberus are pro human in the same way that the N-zi party was 'pro German.'

They are bigots. Ashley isn't.

. TIM isn't a bigot either.  He never even considered denying the alien squadmates acces to the Normandy. Ashley did.  So she's more bigoted than the Cerberus leader.......

It makes you a bigot to be concerned about giving anyone other than a human access to the mostly highly advanced ship in the Alliance?  I think not.  It just makes you cautious.

[Ecrulis]

I just find the cerberus mistrust out of place considering how much Shepard bends over backwards for the alliance between 2 and 3 especially if you destroyed the collector base. The VS is the ONLY companion to mention from 1 to have that level of distrust and to have it carry over into 3 after saving the galaxy twice in one game is just dumb.

Modifié par Ecrulis, 09 avril 2013 - 05:46 .

[mtmercydave09]

Ecrulis wrote...

I just find the cerberus mistrust out of place considering how much Shepard bends over backwards for the alliance between 2 and 3 especially if you destroyed the collector base. The VS is the ONLY companion to mention from 1 to have that level of distrust and to have it carry over into 3 after saving the galaxy twice in one game is just dumb.

I agree, I think it's out of place and shouldn't have been part of the story in ME3.  I mean even with Ash once you finally get her back and go on the date with her, she tells you about her family which is pretty much similar to what she says in ME1.  It's like they had to reintroduce the VS's to us.

It should have been over with on Mars when the VS sees you shooting Cerberus soldiers.  The Coup was just a crappy way to extend the trust issue longer than it should have been.

Modifié par mtmercydave09, 09 avril 2013 - 05:52 .

[Getorex]

Han Shot First wrote...

She does make one racially charged comment in expressing it, but you can't judge a character (or real people for that matter) by a single statement. You have take into consideration the sum of all they've said and done, and in the grand scheme of things Ashley isn't a racist. The motivating factor for that statement appears to be jealousy rather than racial animus, she just used a very politically incorrect way to express it.

The question to ask also is whether she would have reacted differently if Liara had instead been a human character, who was similarly attractive, and also a potential romantic rival.

I don't think she would have. Instead of the 'bug-eyed monster' comment she probably gets called a blonde bimbo, or something similar. The primary motivation for Ashley's politically incorrect snark was jealousy.

Indeed.  In ME3, the Citadel convo that seals the deal with Ash, she comments on how she'd hate to have to "punch out the latest table-dancing tart to throw herself at (Shepard)".  Bug-eyed monster, blonde bimbo, table-dancing tart.  All the same, all not-unreasonable expressions of actual human females feeling jealous.  Guys do something similar.  Normal.

[mtmercydave09]

Getorex wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

She does make one racially charged comment in expressing it, but you can't judge a character (or real people for that matter) by a single statement. You have take into consideration the sum of all they've said and done, and in the grand scheme of things Ashley isn't a racist. The motivating factor for that statement appears to be jealousy rather than racial animus, she just used a very politically incorrect way to express it.

The question to ask also is whether she would have reacted differently if Liara had instead been a human character, who was similarly attractive, and also a potential romantic rival.

I don't think she would have. Instead of the 'bug-eyed monster' comment she probably gets called a blonde bimbo, or something similar. The primary motivation for Ashley's politically incorrect snark was jealousy.

Indeed.  In ME3, the Citadel convo that seals the deal with Ash, she comments on how she'd hate to have to "punch out the latest table-dancing tart to throw herself at (Shepard)".  Bug-eyed monster, blonde bimbo, table-dancing tart.  All the same, all not-unreasonable expressions of actual human females feeling jealous.  Guys do something similar.  Normal.

Agreed, and by ME3 any of Ash's initial worries about the other races are long gone, but yes the jealous feelings were always there.

[Clayless]

AresKeith wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It's hard to make a bad character worse.

I would say Citadel improved her, but she was radioactive dust by that stage so I couldn't comment.

and how did Citadel improve her?

Pretty sure you just read half my sentence.

[robertthebard]

mtmercydave09 wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

I just find the cerberus mistrust out of place considering how much Shepard bends over backwards for the alliance between 2 and 3 especially if you destroyed the collector base. The VS is the ONLY companion to mention from 1 to have that level of distrust and to have it carry over into 3 after saving the galaxy twice in one game is just dumb.

I agree, I think it's out of place and shouldn't have been part of the story in ME3.  I mean even with Ash once you finally get her back and go on the date with her, she tells you about her family which is pretty much similar to what she says in ME1.  It's like they had to reintroduce the VS's to us.

It should have been over with on Mars when the VS sees you shooting Cerberus soldiers.  The Coup was just a crappy way to extend the trust issue longer than it should have been.

This is entirely why I won't allow VS on the Normandy after the Coup.  There is no reason, given Shepard's history, all of which VS is privy to, that I should have to explain my actions one more time.  I shouldn't need a Paragon/Renegade option, and I surely shouldn't need interrupts to kill the person there that truly needs killing.  I can't trust them to trust me, and that means they can't be on my ship.  Note:  It doesn't matter which one of them survives Virmire.

[AresKeith]

mtmercydave09 wrote...

I'm not sure the redesign of Ash in ME3 into being more "sexy" is really out of character for her. It's pretty well established that she has a girly side, so I can see her letting her hair down. It could also be a sign of her being more relaxed of where she is in her career, since she's not stuck as Gunnery Chief anymore and knows Shep is alive. Shep really is the one that keeps Ash going especially if you romance her.

I would have preferred a ponytail instead and they could have done better with her outfit too

[Getorex]

mtmercydave09 wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

I just find the cerberus mistrust out of place considering how much Shepard bends over backwards for the alliance between 2 and 3 especially if you destroyed the collector base. The VS is the ONLY companion to mention from 1 to have that level of distrust and to have it carry over into 3 after saving the galaxy twice in one game is just dumb.

I agree, I think it's out of place and shouldn't have been part of the story in ME3.  I mean even with Ash once you finally get her back and go on the date with her, she tells you about her family which is pretty much similar to what she says in ME1.  It's like they had to reintroduce the VS's to us.

They did.  Miranda keeps repeating her whole "my father is obsessed with his legacy" schtick in ME3 after you got a buttload of it in ME2.  The reason is the writers WERE introducing each character (yet again) for the sake of NEW players (people who come to Mass Effect directly into ME3 are pikers, pretenders.  Those who come in new at ME2 are amateurs).  These noobs think ME is about Miranda, Jack, and other side dishes.  They only get the barest intro to Ashley and Tali.  Ash shows up immediately in ME3 but is questioning your reliability or loyalty the whole time and then, BAM!, hospital and she's gone until midway through the game.  What's to like with that?  Tali isn't available until after the halfway point. 

In ME2 the ONLY thing you get of Ash is the terse interaction after Horizon where she sings your praises and then jumps your sh*t when learning you are with Cerberus.  What's to like there?  You get NOTHING more of her at all for the rest of the game.  Liara...you get nothing in ME2 but her off-putting behavior on Illium...until LotSB where she gets star treatment.  What's NOT to like there? 

Only getting to know Ash via ME1 with the background and conversations gives you any opportunity to "know" her and where she comes from.  She was THE first person added to your unit in the game!  She then goes on to get short-sheeted in ME2 and bumrushed in ME3...unless you stick with her and then she becomes likable.  But with noobs in particular, who would WANT to give her the shot? 

[AresKeith]

Robosexual wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It's hard to make a bad character worse.

I would say Citadel improved her, but she was radioactive dust by that stage so I couldn't comment.

and how did Citadel improve her?

Pretty sure you just read half my sentence.

Um no I didn't, I only asked why and how you think it improved her

[mtmercydave09]

Getorex wrote...

mtmercydave09 wrote...

Ecrulis wrote...

I just find the cerberus mistrust out of place considering how much Shepard bends over backwards for the alliance between 2 and 3 especially if you destroyed the collector base. The VS is the ONLY companion to mention from 1 to have that level of distrust and to have it carry over into 3 after saving the galaxy twice in one game is just dumb.

I agree, I think it's out of place and shouldn't have been part of the story in ME3.  I mean even with Ash once you finally get her back and go on the date with her, she tells you about her family which is pretty much similar to what she says in ME1.  It's like they had to reintroduce the VS's to us.

They did.  Miranda keeps repeating her whole "my father is obsessed with his legacy" schtick in ME3 after you got a buttload of it in ME2.  The reason is the writers WERE introducing each character (yet again) for the sake of NEW players (people who come to Mass Effect directly into ME3 are pikers, pretenders.  Those who come in new at ME2 are amateurs).  These noobs think ME is about Miranda, Jack, and other side dishes.  They only get the barest intro to Ashley and Tali.  Ash shows up immediately in ME3 but is questioning your reliability or loyalty the whole time and then, BAM!, hospital and she's gone until midway through the game.  What's to like with that?  Tali isn't available until after the halfway point. 

In ME2 the ONLY thing you get of Ash is the terse interaction after Horizon where she sings your praises and then jumps your sh*t when learning you are with Cerberus.  What's to like there?  You get NOTHING more of her at all for the rest of the game.  Liara...you get nothing in ME2 but her off-putting behavior on Illium...until LotSB where she gets star treatment.  What's NOT to like there? 

Only getting to know Ash via ME1 with the background and conversations gives you any opportunity to "know" her and where she comes from.  She was THE first person added to your unit in the game!  She then goes on to get short-sheeted in ME2 and bumrushed in ME3...unless you stick with her and then she becomes likable.  But with noobs in particular, who would WANT to give her the shot? 

You've summed up my feelings about how Bioware screwed over Ash perfectly.  Bioware really didn't do Ash any favors in the writing for her character, but I'm still glad I stuck with her.  They should have really developed her more and/or not kept her out of ME2 and put her more in ME3 in order to present her in a better light.

[Getorex]

AresKeith wrote...

mtmercydave09 wrote...

I'm not sure the redesign of Ash in ME3 into being more "sexy" is really out of character for her. It's pretty well established that she has a girly side, so I can see her letting her hair down. It could also be a sign of her being more relaxed of where she is in her career, since she's not stuck as Gunnery Chief anymore and knows Shep is alive. Shep really is the one that keeps Ash going especially if you romance her.

I would have preferred a ponytail instead and they could have done better with her outfit too

I liked her in ME1 AND ME3.  Sexy.  I had no problem with the hair, per se.  I just wish it was down only when 1) in the hospital, and 2) when not on duty/not in armor.  When she armors up, hair into a military-correct bun please.  It was silly that her hair was all bunned up in the romance scene in ME1.  Hair down for sex and down time, up for duty.

Modifié par Getorex, 09 avril 2013 - 06:03 .

[mtmercydave09]

AresKeith wrote...

mtmercydave09 wrote...

I'm not sure the redesign of Ash in ME3 into being more "sexy" is really out of character for her. It's pretty well established that she has a girly side, so I can see her letting her hair down. It could also be a sign of her being more relaxed of where she is in her career, since she's not stuck as Gunnery Chief anymore and knows Shep is alive. Shep really is the one that keeps Ash going especially if you romance her.

I would have preferred a ponytail instead and they could have done better with her outfit too

Good point, her default blue suit wasn't terribly great in terms of armor, but once you get her back you can change her suit into more armor.

Ponytail would have been good during combat scenes, her hair down outside of it.

[Getorex]

AresKeith wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It's hard to make a bad character worse.

I would say Citadel improved her, but she was radioactive dust by that stage so I couldn't comment.

and how did Citadel improve her?

Pretty sure you just read half my sentence.

Um no I didn't, I only asked why and how you think it improved her.

Well I loved her drinking game vignette.  Liked it a lot.  Liked the teasing back and forth:

Shep: "I'll go easy on you. I wouldn't want you to break a nail."
Ash: "You didn't just say that."  
Shep: "I sure did, princess."
Ash: "I'm so gonna enjoy this."

Loved the end with her fist driving right to the screen and "blackout" with crashing sounds.  Great like Grunt's tossing the bottle at the screen..."blackout" and fire. 

Modifié par Getorex, 09 avril 2013 - 06:10 .