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[Dieb]

Hey everybody,

In the next installment of my well established series of "threads-questioning-debates-that-question-plots", your favourite oblivious, blue-eyed forum rookie wants to know about the criticism against Project Lazarus and Shepard's collaboration with Cerberus.*

Aside of course from the many things people didn't like about the third game, ME2's Lazarus/Cerberus seems to be the prime example of BioWare's "decline in narrative quality" around here, and I sincerely just like to know why. ME2 was the first game for the many PS3 players out there, so there was a need for a hard reset. In other words, justification to "build" an already established character again from ground up. And then, there is Cerberus.

So for what it's worth, here's my take - which I cannot emphasize enough to be based on purely personal opinions and wild assumptions on the availible information. So basically, a forum post.


Commander Shepard & Cerberus
Drew Karpyshyn wrote the second novel, which introduced TIM and Cerberus as gamers got to know them, a year after the first game's release, and as he said in his recent AMA, it was ultimately the overall positive reception by both fans and the team that decided to further go down that road.
So how to you get a character like Shepard, who's either too virtuous or too independent to work with a terrorist organization in the first place? You make him dependent. True, TIM's plan is a bit of a gamble - Shepard technically can leave anytime.
But to all those people how despise of Cerberus and try to sabotage them whenever possible (like me), and also think that it's unlikely how Shepard never just left with the SR-2 under his command (like me before meeting the council):
The backbone of TIM's plan is the urgency of the Collector menace at hand. Shepard sees that, and so did I eventually. Sure, he could come back and make the big entrance, spend months tracking down his past squadmates, explaining himself to the Alliance, but whatever it is, it's happening right now. You can spend an awful lot of time not doing anything useful throughout the game nevertheless, but as far as the canon narrative goes, things are indeed pretty pressing.


Project Lazarus - Space Magic?
The most confusing thing for me is the popular space magic criticism of Project Lazarus.
We don't know exactly in what condition Shepard's remains were recovered, but it's save to say it was somewhere between "disfigured rotten corpse" and "nasty pile of meat". Furthermore, bringing anyone -regardless of the remain's status quo- back to live in the first place, is science fiction by today's standards. So is the better part of the Mass Effect universe. I know - cheap argument. My point is however, that even in this universe, where nowadays impossible (as well as downright ridiculous) things are part of everyday life, Cerberus still stands out in terms of scientific equipment & capabilities.
In hindsight to this, it seems indeed perfectly legitmate to me that they are capable of re-creating a human being with just a piece of tissue. Granted, how you can even theoretically recreate someone's memory/personality is way beyond me, but so are many scientific things for that matter, simply because I am no scientist whatsoever. I'm merely speaking as someone who likes science fiction stories. And as the layman that I am, it never felt as over-the-top or inconsistent as rather quite a few people on here make it out to be. Hence, my curiosity.


So that was my opinion, what was yours again?
-Bael


*and also has a long day ahead of him, preferably spent with a healthy fantasy discussion in that other tab.

edit: First read is most likely full of horrible paragraphs and typos. Will correct formatting and orthography as I re-read my own mess once it's posted.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 25 mars 2013 - 01:06 .

[Wayning_Star]

well, in the forethought of any medical questions in the future. I'd guess resurrection would just be a archaic term for resuscitation.

in geo political terms the Cerberus alliance was merely an end to a means. Shep has to be resurrected, as a time scape instance of what happened in the time being, then the mystery of what exactly Shepard went through during the process of resurrection and apparent 'tinkering' with the basis of choices later in game. I never thought that TIM was actually the culprit of Sheps resurrection, but just a pawn. But lore doesn't touch that subjective with any concrete information regarding the 'innerds' of that experience. We have take it on faith, as it were.

As far as joining up with baddies, that's a given in the game/story as it's really kind of a geo political grey area in the MEU, who's actually BAD as opposed to ultimately good.

[TK514]

I just pretend he was in a coma and required extensive reconstruction.

[Artifex_Imperius]

Concerning the memories. I would rather believe that those were recreated and implanted. And that surely they did not return all of his memories.

[Iakus]

It's space magic, plain and simple. The first real sign of story decay in the trilogy.

The President of the UNAS "dies of a stroke for an hour and a half and basically gets turned into a VI. But Shepard can somehow spend two years dead and come back exactly as before? Because reason.

[Dieb]

iakus wrote...

It's space magic, plain and simple. The first real sign of story decay in the trilogy.

The President of the UNAS "dies of a stroke for an hour and a half and basically gets turned into a VI. But Shepard can somehow spend two years dead and come back exactly as before? Because reason.

Because Cerberus?

[Iakus]

Baelrahn wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's space magic, plain and simple. The first real sign of story decay in the trilogy.

The President of the UNAS "dies of a stroke for an hour and a half and basically gets turned into a VI. But Shepard can somehow spend two years dead and come back exactly as before? Because reason.

Because Cerberus?

Amounts to the same thing.

[Wayning_Star]

what could fans do without space magic. It's astounding!!

[F4H bandicoot]

iakus wrote...

It's space magic, plain and simple. The first real sign of story decay in the trilogy.

The President of the UNAS "dies of a stroke for an hour and a half and basically gets turned into a VI. But Shepard can somehow spend two years dead and come back exactly as before? Because reason.

Maybe that was a small nod to the fans who opposed to whole idea

I just reckon they found his brain in a good condition, and went from there.



If you told people 150 years ago about some of the treatments we have today, I'm sure they'd claim magic aswell, but it's not, just advancement of technology and ideas.

[Dieb]

iakus wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's space magic, plain and simple. The first real sign of story decay in the trilogy.

The President of the UNAS "dies of a stroke for an hour and a half and basically gets turned into a VI. But Shepard can somehow spend two years dead and come back exactly as before? Because reason.

Because Cerberus?

Amounts to the same thing.

If you'd please take the time to read my entire OP, you'd see that as far as I'm concerned, it really does not. And go on opposing from there.

If you told people 150 years ago about some of the treatments we have
today, I'm sure they'd claim magic aswell, but it's not, just
advancement of technology and ideas.

Well said.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 25 mars 2013 - 01:42 .

[TheProtheans]

My opinion is that it did not break the suspension of disbelief.
And if it does for you then you should not be even complaining about it because of everything that came before it that was already in the Mass effect universe.

[Wayning_Star]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's space magic, plain and simple. The first real sign of story decay in the trilogy.

The President of the UNAS "dies of a stroke for an hour and a half and basically gets turned into a VI. But Shepard can somehow spend two years dead and come back exactly as before? Because reason.

Maybe that was a small nod to the fans who opposed to whole idea

I just reckon they found his brain in a good condition, and went from there.



If you told people 150 years ago about some of the treatments we have today, I'm sure they'd claim magic aswell, but it's not, just advancement of technology and ideas.

In the MEU we're talking billions of years.. before old earth even thought up the cycle.

[Wayning_Star]

I theorized(to myself) that the resurrection device was a lost alien med kit found on a collector planetesimal base in a dumpster. The collectors had no use for it,but few surviving Cerberus agents found it and studied it's origins and function. They send a coded message to TIM requesting a pick up but that story was never told...

[Getorex]

TK514 wrote...

I just pretend he was in a coma and required extensive reconstruction.

I preferred simply assuming (headcanon) that the suit/medigel system has an emergency stasis system of some kind built in preserves the body in a form of hibernation, otherwise it is impossible regardless of technology (even at the cusp of the 23rd century). 

Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.  At least they addressed the fact that even if you cloned him (Citadel DLC) the clone is NOT a duplicate stamp of the original.  Fingerprints are different, brain/memories are totally different. 

[Dieb]

Getorex wrote...
Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.

Very well, but why is that? Why is it magic?

[BHRamsay]

TheProtheans wrote...

My opinion is that it did not break the suspension of disbelief.
And if it does for you then you should not be even complaining about it because of everything that came before it that was already in the Mass effect universe.

Here, here

[Wayning_Star]

Baelrahn wrote...

Getorex wrote...
Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.

Very well, but why is that? Why is it magic?

see: religion

[Wayning_Star]

Getorex wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I just pretend he was in a coma and required extensive reconstruction.

I preferred simply assuming (headcanon) that the suit/medigel system has an emergency stasis system of some kind built in preserves the body in a form of hibernation, otherwise it is impossible regardless of technology (even at the cusp of the 23rd century). 

Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.  At least they addressed the fact that even if you cloned him (Citadel DLC) the clone is NOT a duplicate stamp of the original.  Fingerprints are different, brain/memories are totally different. 

I'm wondering about clones and finger prints tho.. I haven't researched it..but I have... doubts.

uh oh

http://www.scafo.org...ary/130501.html

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 25 mars 2013 - 02:00 .

[Getorex]

Baelrahn wrote...

Getorex wrote...
Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.

Very well, but why is that? Why is it magic?

Shepard 1)got spaced and lost his suit pressure.  So exposure to HARD vacuum. 2) He then reentered the atmosphere of that planet.  RE-ENTRY!  He was a meteorite that actually struck the ground!  He was a dessicated cinder. Soft tissues would not survive, but in particular, neurons would not survive at all.  So...while you may be able t salvage some DNA for cloning purposes, the memories are GONE.  There's nothing there to use to reproduce any memories.  Clone all you want but each clone will be a totally new individual with their own memories and experience.  The only thing that would carry over (mostly) would be basic temperament and personality traits. 

Memories aren't stored in magic.  They ARE the brain and with the brain gone/dessicated/fried/blown (vacuum, heat) there's nothing to work with.  THAT is why it requires magic.  Granted, in this case Bioware went and used an old (and tired) saw that many poor movies have: reviving someone who was stone-cold-dead, either by clone or some form of technomagic and having them be just like they were before they bit the dust.  It's an overused and crappy vehicle.  They shouldn't have gone there.  They should have simply had him go into stasis and NOT re-entered the atmosphere so that his preserved medigel stasis body was available to be found and repaired.  THAT I could accept but not the silly that we got.

[Wayning_Star]

Getorex wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...

Getorex wrote...
Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.

Very well, but why is that? Why is it magic?

Shepard 1)got spaced and lost his suit pressure.  So exposure to HARD vacuum. 2) He then reentered the atmosphere of that planet.  RE-ENTRY!  He was a meteorite that actually struck the ground!  He was a dessicated cinder. Soft tissues would not survive, but in particular, neurons would not survive at all.  So...while you may be able t salvage some DNA for cloning purposes, the memories are GONE.  There's nothing there to use to reproduce any memories.  Clone all you want but each clone will be a totally new individual with their own memories and experience.  The only thing that would carry over (mostly) would be basic temperament and personality traits. 

Memories aren't stored in magic.  They ARE the brain and with the brain gone/dessicated/fried/blown (vacuum, heat) there's nothing to work with.  THAT is why it requires magic.  Granted, in this case Bioware went and used an old (and tired) saw that many poor movies have: reviving someone who was stone-cold-dead, either by clone or some form of technomagic and having them be just like they were before they bit the dust.  It's an overused and crappy vehicle.  They shouldn't have gone there.  They should have simply had him go into stasis and NOT re-entered the atmosphere so that his preserved medigel stasis body was available to be found and repaired.  THAT I could accept but not the silly that we got.

don't forget quantum mechanics and the gist of Leviathan as apex technology on the loose..

[Getorex]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Getorex wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I just pretend he was in a coma and required extensive reconstruction.

I preferred simply assuming (headcanon) that the suit/medigel system has an emergency stasis system of some kind built in preserves the body in a form of hibernation, otherwise it is impossible regardless of technology (even at the cusp of the 23rd century). 

Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.  At least they addressed the fact that even if you cloned him (Citadel DLC) the clone is NOT a duplicate stamp of the original.  Fingerprints are different, brain/memories are totally different. 

I'm wondering about clones and finger prints tho.. I haven't researched it..but I have... doubts.

uh oh

http://www.scafo.org...ary/130501.html

Fingerprints are NOT encoded in your DNA, not the SPECIFIC fingerprints you have.  Your DNA merely says: thou shalt have fingerprints.  Their specific form is stochastic.  Bioware got that right.

Identical twins (monozygotic twins) are actually clones of each other.  They are TRUE clones that are much more alike than any lab clone is - down to the mitochondrial DNA.  Identical.  They do not have identical fingerprints.

Also, DNA methylation and other epigenetic modifications are entirely unique and not clonable in their entirety.  So there will ALWAYS be real differences.

Modifié par Getorex, 25 mars 2013 - 02:05 .

[Wayning_Star]

Getorex wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Getorex wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I just pretend he was in a coma and required extensive reconstruction.

I preferred simply assuming (headcanon) that the suit/medigel system has an emergency stasis system of some kind built in preserves the body in a form of hibernation, otherwise it is impossible regardless of technology (even at the cusp of the 23rd century). 

Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.  At least they addressed the fact that even if you cloned him (Citadel DLC) the clone is NOT a duplicate stamp of the original.  Fingerprints are different, brain/memories are totally different. 

I'm wondering about clones and finger prints tho.. I haven't researched it..but I have... doubts.

uh oh

http://www.scafo.org...ary/130501.html

Fingerprints are NOT encoded in your DNA, not the SPECIFIC fingerprints you have.  Your DNA merely says: thou shalt have fingerprints.  Their specific form is stochastic.  Bioware got that right.

Identical twins (monozygotic twins) are actually clones of each other.  They are TRUE clones that are much more alike than any lab clone is - down to the mitochondrial DNA.  Identical.  They do not have identical fingerprints.

Also, DNA methylation and other epigenetic modifications are entirely unique and not clonable in their entirety.  So there will ALWAYS be real differences.

but. clones are NOT twins.. no matter if even close comparison,it's not etched in stone..like our assumed finger prints are sole depiction of our identities.

If cloned 'exactly' (for the sake of purism;) they'd be identical. If not, then its not a clone at all.

Of course, ah hem, nobody anywhere has actually cloned a human..so it's a moot point..but still, there is room for doubt about clones and finger prints. per se. Enough for beyond a reasonable doubt type scenario. lol

edit: I'm not educated enough to fathom the realities of actual scientific data regarding your synopsis, but have a curious notion that there isn't actually enough evidence either way.

thanks for that informed post!!

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 25 mars 2013 - 02:21 .

[Dieb]

Getorex wrote...

Memories aren't stored in magic.  They ARE the brain and with the brain gone/dessicated/fried/blown (vacuum, heat) there's nothing to work with.  THAT is why it requires magic.

Well, there's a fine line between drama and relatable realism. It is stated clearly (I believe it's in ME3's Chronos Station) that
"luckily the brain was relatively intact due to the exosuit helmet".
Of course, entering an atmosphere would most likely vaporize a person, exosuit or no. However, people get injured in ways that would instantly kill a real person, in many occasions throughout the trilogy.

[Wayning_Star]

Baelrahn wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Memories aren't stored in magic.  They ARE the brain and with the brain gone/dessicated/fried/blown (vacuum, heat) there's nothing to work with.  THAT is why it requires magic.

Well, there's a fine line between drama and relatable realism. It is stated clearly (I believe it's in ME3's Chronos Station) that
"luckily the brain was relatively intact due to the exosuit helmet".
Of course, entering an atmosphere would most likely vaporize a person, exosuit or no. However, people get injured in ways that would instantly kill a real person, in many occasions throughout the trilogy.

Didn't that guy just a few months ago jump out at a very high altitude, didn't even get hot. I'm wondering if Sheps bod would'a reached the temps required to burn up? Deep cold of space and vacuum would play havoc but could actually preserve tissues?

I think impact would probably be the worst.

[Getorex]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Getorex wrote...

TK514 wrote...

I just pretend he was in a coma and required extensive reconstruction.

I preferred simply assuming (headcanon) that the suit/medigel system has an emergency stasis system of some kind built in preserves the body in a form of hibernation, otherwise it is impossible regardless of technology (even at the cusp of the 23rd century). 

Personally, I HATED the way it was done.  "Kill" Shepard and then magically bring him back.  At least they addressed the fact that even if you cloned him (Citadel DLC) the clone is NOT a duplicate stamp of the original.  Fingerprints are different, brain/memories are totally different. 

I'm wondering about clones and finger prints tho.. I haven't researched it..but I have... doubts.

uh oh

http://www.scafo.org...ary/130501.html

Fingerprints are NOT encoded in your DNA, not the SPECIFIC fingerprints you have.  Your DNA merely says: thou shalt have fingerprints.  Their specific form is stochastic.  Bioware got that right.

Identical twins (monozygotic twins) are actually clones of each other.  They are TRUE clones that are much more alike than any lab clone is - down to the mitochondrial DNA.  Identical.  They do not have identical fingerprints.

Also, DNA methylation and other epigenetic modifications are entirely unique and not clonable in their entirety.  So there will ALWAYS be real differences.

but. clones are NOT twins.. no matter if even close comparison,it's not etched in stone..like our assumed finger prints are sole depiction of our identities.

If cloned 'exactly' (for the sake of purism;) they'd be identical. If not, then its not a clone at all.

Of course, ah hem, nobody anywhere has actually cloned a human..so it's a moot point..but still, there is room for doubt about clones and finger prints. pe se. Enough for beyond a reasonable doubt type scenario. lol

The term "clone" has a specific and clear scientific meaning.  Clones are NOT perfect copies the way identical twins are.  Human pure clones, down to the last molecule, are called "identical twins".  Literally.  They are identical in DNA including, as I said, mitochondrial DNA (unlike ANY lab-produced clone of ANY species).  They also developed in identical uteran environments, getting hit with male and female hormone pulses at the same time.  That being said, if you really analyzed even identical twin DNA you would find that as time passes the DNA modifications diverge such that though the DNA SEQUENCE will be identical, the modifications to it will NOT be identical and thus the expression of the DNA will not be identical. 

A clone isn't some bit of magic, it is exactly what has been done in labs with many MANY animals so far (and one day someone WILL clone a human).  The cloned human will be less like the template human than an identical twin of that person actuall is.

Modifié par Getorex, 25 mars 2013 - 02:22 .