164 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Shut up Auld Wolf.

[enayasoul]

@ getorex - mind blown. Sounds logical.

What about the black boxes Miranda talks about it? Not sure I understand that. Are they some kind of back-up implanted in people to keep their memories? Or did she extract those memories before they were lost completely? Or did she reconstruct his memories? And implanted them back or something? /shrug

Modifié par enayasoul, 25 mars 2013 - 04:45 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

My problem never truly lied with the explannation behind project Lazarus. I would have easily overlooked it if they had actually done something with it.

But they didn't. It was just an excuse to jump the timeline foward.

[Auld Wulf]

Steelcan wrote...

Shut up Auld Wolf.

 >_>

I'm sorry, but I'm amused.

Really Steely?

[fr33stylez]

iamthedave3 wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

If you told people 150 years ago about some of the treatments we have today, I'm sure they'd claim magic aswell, but it's not, just advancement of technology and ideas.

Yet to see an answer to this...

What is there to 'answer'? Your statement has no bearing on the actual question.

Shepherd is - as far as we can tell - a human being, and as far as the ME canon establishes, humans are still human. Humans that hit the ground at terminal velocity get turned into jelly. Humans who get spaced, exposed to hard vacuum and then go through re-entry... well... let's just say not much would be left behind.

The idea that Shepherd's HELMET would prevent his/her brain from being irreperably damaged is ridiculous. The impact alone would bounce Shepherd's brain against the inside of his/her skull so hard that it would suffer irreperable damage (understatement mode activated).

Furthmore, this isn't 'technology'. It's a plot device. If it was technology it would actually have a bearing on events elsewhere in the universe. But it isn't, it's a one-time plot device used to bring Shepherd back from the dead which is then quietly shuffled off-screen and which has no contemporary anywhere else in the game world.

What makes it magical is not that it's impossible, it's that it has no technological precedent within the game world. Let alone the many questions, many of them religious and cultural, that this technology should logically raise which are barely even given a nod to let alone explored.

It isn't technology. It's magic in technological form.

If Lazarus was genuine tech, it would either cause a revolution in medical science (let us not forget the Salarians are the most advanced scientific minds in the universe; they'd do wonders with this stuff), or it would be a logical development from existing technologies. That's how technology works. For the most part development follows a traceable pattern, broken by geniuses who (usually) make significant breakthroughs. And in all but a handful of cases, those breakthroughs lead to a significant number of attendant technological developments.

None of this occurs with Project Lazarus, making it a plot device and nothing more.

Ding ding ding.

[JasonShepard]

Getorex wrote...

SNIP

It's more than implied.  Look at that sequence.  He starts entering the atmosphere and producing a tail.  You see a glowing tail developing around him (OK, for those who do femshep...or her) and this clearly suggests re-entry.  If they'd left him drifting but with no suggestion at all that he was entering the atmosphere, OK, you could think he's stuck in some orbit but they didn't.  It also seems that the debris they depicted for project Lazarus being rejuvinated was a bunch of burnt, dried debris on the ground.  Even if the atmosphere on that planet wasn't thick and he didn't crisp on the fall he still would have impacted at terminal velocity.  POW!  And that AFTER he's been vacuum dried. 

Yeah, though like I said - he's not close enough to the planet to be entering the atmosphere yet. I do believe Shepard entering the atmosphere was the intention however. I just don't like it.
Atmospheric entry makes the question of recovery that much more difficult (why wasn't Shepard turned into ashes? Alchera [not Nonuel - I got it wrong in my earlier post] has an atmosphere almost as thick as Earth's). Even if he skipped off the atmosphere, he would find himself in a degrading orbit which would eventually lead to a landing (though possibly not until after the Blue Suns recovered him).
The state of body could be taken either way though - Vacuum drying would have a mummification effect (and wouldn't cause the body to explode - that one's a myth), leading to the 'brown and crispy' look. The main problem is all the broken bones in the x-ray, and I can't easily explain that one since his skeleton obviously wasn't shattered by the Normandy's explosion. So in conclusion... either the x-ray is wrong, he got hit by something while in orbit (maybe the Blue Suns found him by crashing into him), or he did crash-land on a planet and his N7 suit has got a damn good automated parachute...

In any case, the game suggests that Shepard we play is THE Shepard, simply "resurrected" via another form of space magic. 

I agree - it's the same person if the same personality and information is there. Of course, if you decided to radically change from Paragon Engineer to Renegade Vanguard after Lazarus, then... well, that's up to you. 

[RedBeardJim]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

I didn't like Project Lazarus but I went with it because that was the game. I would have much prefered it not be in there or be explained as Reaper tech, but ah well.


The thing that really annoyed me was there were only two or three minor opportunities for calling out how terrible Cerberus was. Shepard can't bring up Kahoku with anyone, and more egregiously Sole Survivor Shepard can't bring up the time Cerberus tried to get thresher maws to eat him and killed all but one member of his squad. That for me was frustrating.

That's pretty much where I stood with it, as well. Especially when Miranda brought up Akuze during that first shuttle ride, and the most I could say was "We're done here."

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Shut up Auld Wolf.

 >_>

I'm sorry, but I'm amused.

Really Steely?

. Oh you were doing so well.  Then you just crashed. 

[Dieb]

Getorex wrote...

On the philosophical question (that is suggested in ME3 when at Cronos station) I would argue that it doesn't actually matter.  If Shepard standing there has the memories and experience of, say, an original Shepard that is no more, then it doesn't matter that the original is gone.  The one standing there IS the real Shepard because he has ALL the memories, experiences, and traits of the original.  The fact that his then-current BODY didn't necessarily experience any of what he remembers is irrelevant and a mere technicality.  EVERYTHING else about him is as real as the original would be had he been standing there.  The clone Shepard lacked all that and ONLY had the body/appearance of Shepard.  Without the memories and experience encoded in his brain, he's NOT Shepard and can never be. 

In any case, the game suggests that Shepard we play is THE Shepard, simply "resurrected" via another form of space magic. 

This is exactly how I see it. I disagree with the space magic part again though, because I was never under the impression that they intended it to look like anything else than you described in your first paragraph.

I believe however, the reason why they explicitly mention him being THE Shepard, is solely to actually avoid confusion. I'm saying "actually", because you'd think that most people would use this as a starting point for the big "Who am I?" plot arc; while it is rather obvious -and that's a solid complaint on my part as well- that they didn't want to address it any further.



@Auld Wulf
Don't worry about it. Text doesn't convey tone.
I think it's best to imagine it like when you give your friends a speech about something you're really excited about, and one of them always goes "shut up", just to mock you in the ensuing silence after you finished.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 26 mars 2013 - 08:43 .

[David7204]

I'm not going to read through this thread. But I will say that I think the Lazarus Project was outstanding. I've yet to see any scientific argument explaining why it couldn't be done that has merit. (Really, it's all just "Shepard would burn up lol") I think some of the best character moments in the series are derived from Shepard's death (The kiss in Lair of the Shadow Broker, for example.) And I think it did a truly great job of transferring the player from the old ship and crew to the new one.

enayasoul wrote...

What about the black boxes Miranda talks about it? Not sure I understand that. Are they some kind of back-up implanted in people to keep their memories? Or did she extract those memories before they were lost completely? Or did she reconstruct his memories? And implanted them back or something? /shrug

A black box is just an unknown in an engineering project. Something that takes an input and gives you an output. You don't really care how it does it, you only care that it does it.

Modifié par David7204, 26 mars 2013 - 09:04 .

[Nykara]

My take on it is I find it high unrealistic that they could have bought Shepard back from the dead without a massive amount of brain damage.. Just a couple of minutes of not breathing can cause brain damage and Shepard was as dead as dead can be. I am pretty sure no matter how good their technology is to start blood flowing through Sheps body, restart a heart (or clone a new one and put it in place) and all of that there's no way possible that they could have recreated Shepards brain with memories intact without using Sheps real brain - and it would have been majorly brain damaged at the very least.. but hey it's science fiction so if they say cerberus can do this they can do it.

[David7204]

Why not?

[NeonFlux117]

This is just my opinion and headcanon, and cannot be confirmed or denied with ME's lore. But I think TIM has been indoctrinated (not fully, this only happens in ME3) for decades. Also, I think Cerberus has reaper tech- before ME2. And that TIM's not fully indoctrinated part of his brain, built Shepard- with reaper tech- hence why TIM can "control" him aboard the Citadel at the end of ME3, he built Shep because Shep is the best chance for humanity to defeat The Reapers, however TIM still struggles in a battle of wills with the Reapers- TIM's crucible of sorts. This is why things like Horizon, the collector ship, and wanting to save the collector base creep into TIM's actions.

But this is just me. And is probably just silly and far fetched.

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 26 mars 2013 - 09:03 .

[andy6915]

"Humans that hit the ground at terminal velocity get turned into jelly"

Typically... But not always. Examples:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Vesna_Vulović

(survived a fall of 10,160 metres (33,330 ft)

http://en.wikipedia....Juliane_Koepcke

(survived a fall of 10,000 feet)

And more. Both examples had the person hitting the ground at terminal velocity and surviving. Death from a high fall isn't assured.

[NeonFlux117]

plus the reapers have the ability to bring back dead things- husk's, Saren hopper thing. So it's not far fetched that reaper nano technology, plus cybernetics, plus clone technology (this was confirmed with Citadel DLC) could bring Shepard back.

Again there has to be a sort of "X" factor in bringing shep back. I think that "X" factor was Reaper tech- clearly the most state of the art tech in MEU.


This is an interesting topic. I wish I had contributed earlier. Good stuff OP.

[Nykara]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

This is just my opinion and headcanon, and cannot be confirmed or denied with ME's lore. But I think TIM has been indoctrinated (not fully, this only happens in ME3) for decades. Also, I think Cerberus has reaper tech- before ME2. And that TIM's not fully indoctrinated part of his brain, built Shepard- with reaper tech- hence why TIM can "control" him aboard the Citadel at the end of ME3, he built Shep because Shep is the best chance for humanity to defeat The Reapers, however TIM still struggles in a battle of wills with the Reapers- TIM's crucible of sorts. This is why things like Horizon, the collector ship, and wanting to save the collector base creep into TIM's actions.

But this is just me. And is probably just silly and far fetched.

If TIMs ability to control Shepard is limited to Reaper tech then how come he can also control Anderson at the same time?

[Dieb]

To be fair, the best contributions definitely aren't mine. I just like to ask things I believe aren't discussed enough... in contrast to things that get far too much exposure.

*Garrus voice* Well...you know.

[NeonFlux117]

Nykara wrote...

NeonFlux117 wrote...

This is just my opinion and headcanon, and cannot be confirmed or denied with ME's lore. But I think TIM has been indoctrinated (not fully, this only happens in ME3) for decades. Also, I think Cerberus has reaper tech- before ME2. And that TIM's not fully indoctrinated part of his brain, built Shepard- with reaper tech- hence why TIM can "control" him aboard the Citadel at the end of ME3, he built Shep because Shep is the best chance for humanity to defeat The Reapers, however TIM still struggles in a battle of wills with the Reapers- TIM's crucible of sorts. This is why things like Horizon, the collector ship, and wanting to save the collector base creep into TIM's actions.

But this is just me. And is probably just silly and far fetched.

If TIMs ability to control Shepard is limited to Reaper tech then how come he can also control Anderson at the same time?

Yeah, this is a ****** in the armor so to speak. I guess you could say that Anderson's exposure to reapers, tech and signals during the occupation of Earth can be attibuted to this- but this is thin. Or it could be the Citadel, maybe when Under reaper control it emmits signals that indoctrinated agents can use to control people. I don't know. All these questions are great. And I wish we could as Bioware these- particually Casey and Walters, cause they wrote the endings. I fear without there input we are just guessing. Although, it is fun to specualte. 

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 26 mars 2013 - 09:16 .

[SpamBot2000]

Project Lazarus was just a way to reset Shepard so he could be leveled up again. I find it best not to think about it too much. The writers didn't.

[David7204]

That's stupid. Yes they did.

[SpamBot2000]

David7204 wrote...

That's stupid. Yes they did.

Oh, they did think about it too much?

Yes, I'm this bored.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 mars 2013 - 10:05 .

[David7204]

What are your complaints with Lazarus, exactly?

[SpamBot2000]

David7204 wrote...

What are your complaints with Lazarus, exactly?

Mine? Well, it smacks of Space Magic basically. But not to a Synthesis degree, obviously.

[David7204]

And why is that? Because the brain is beyond human understanding or manipulation?

Modifié par David7204, 26 mars 2013 - 10:12 .

[SpamBot2000]

David7204 wrote...

And why is that? Because the brain is beyond human understanding or manipulation?

Because a convenient "raise dead" spell available to the protagonist and no one else in the universe undermines the heroism of that character by making him superman?

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 mars 2013 - 10:16 .