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"You bring that up again?": Project Lazarus & Cerberus


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#126
Seboist

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SpamBot2000 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

ME2 is even pointless in the context of itself. There's no point in recruiting some of these characters to begin with(why do I need an assassin?) and the daddy issue loyalty missions don't advance the collector plot one iota.


You keep making these disparaging remarks about "daddy issues", but those are some pretty common and profound issues.


Common? Yes? Profound? Perhaps. More important than stopping an insectoid species from harvesting human colonies to create a human reaper? LOL NO.


But it's not like you choose to either tackle some daddy issues or stop the Collectors. You get to do both.


There aren't any Collectors in the inane and irrelevant daddy issue missions.

Try again.

#127
SpamBot2000

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Seboist wrote...

There aren't any Collectors in the inane and irrelevant daddy issue missions.

Try again.


Nah, I just wanted to defend "daddy issues" as not completely "inane". 

#128
David7204

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That is moronic. Every RPG in existence has side quests that are usually entirely separate from the main conflict.

#129
The Heretic of Time

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SpamBot2000 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

There aren't any Collectors in the inane and irrelevant daddy issue missions.

Try again.


Nah, I just wanted to defend "daddy issues" as not completely "inane". 


Going out of your way to acting as a psychiatric/mental councilor for your squad and their redudant daddy issues and actually spending time on fixing those issues, instead of spending that time on hunting the Collectors, is very much inane.

#130
SpamBot2000

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

There aren't any Collectors in the inane and irrelevant daddy issue missions.

Try again.


Nah, I just wanted to defend "daddy issues" as not completely "inane". 


Going out of your way to acting as a psychiatric/mental councilor for your squad and their redudant daddy issues and actually spending time on fixing those issues, instead of spending that time on hunting the Collectors, is very much inane.


Well, I guess it's a matter of taste. I like to do a bit of counseling now and then.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 26 mars 2013 - 07:16 .


#131
David7204

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That's your argument? That it's 'inane' to have loyal and capable people by your side?

#132
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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I don't find the fact that squadmate loyalty missions were separate from the main plot to be a problem (they certainly had more of a point to them than looking for turian insignias on random mountainous worlds did), but the fact that they were focused on at the expense of the main plot is an issue. What they should have done is simply had less squadmates to begin with (characters like Jacob and Samara certainly weren't necessary), thus requiring less of those missions overall and freeing up more space to work on the main plot.

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 26 mars 2013 - 07:19 .


#133
The Heretic of Time

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

I don't find the fact that squadmate loyalty missions were separate from the main plot to be a problem (they certainly had more of a point than looking for turian insignias on random mountainous worlds), but the fact that they were focused on at the expense of the main plot is an issue. What they should have done is simply had less squadmates to begin with (characters like Jacob and Samara certainly weren't necessary), thus requiring less of those missions overall and freeing up more space to work on the main plot.


I like this human, he understands! :D

#134
ioannisdenton

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This has to stop. All this hating.
Me2 intro was excellent for me. It set the mood perfectly.
this was not due to ps3, after all it came one year later on ps3.

#135
Iakus

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David7204 wrote...

That is moronic. Every RPG in existence has side quests that are usually entirely separate from the main conflict.


The on/off switch for the plot armor was rather goofy, though

#136
Iakus

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

I don't find the fact that squadmate loyalty missions were separate from the main plot to be a problem (they certainly had more of a point to them than looking for turian insignias on random mountainous worlds did), but the fact that they were focused on at the expense of the main plot is an issue. What they should have done is simply had less squadmates to begin with (characters like Jacob and Samara certainly weren't necessary), thus requiring less of those missions overall and freeing up more space to work on the main plot.


This, also

#137
Dieb

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People, enough with the bickering please?

This is a discussion about the probability of certain plot elements, no exercise in making other people admit intellectual defeat. If you have a new perspective to contribute, thank you. However, you do not have to get other people to adapt yours for the sake of some nonexistent competition. Discuss the lore, not each other.

Thank you.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 26 mars 2013 - 07:47 .


#138
RainbowDazed

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Getorex wrote...

RainbowDazed wrote...

I didn't read the whole thread. Just wanted to say that the beginning of ME2 was AWESOME. Awesome.

I think the disbelief and the following lack of trust from former allies (and from players) was an important part of the story and what made it great. Only thing I wish is that they would've more strongly undermined the fact that reaper-tech was an integral part of bringing Shepard back. That should've been a continuous strong theme in ME2 and ME3.


I saw no evidence in ME2 that Shepard's resurrection had ANYTHING to do with Reaper tech at all.  It was all just high-tech biomedicine/biomechanics.  No magic reaper juice anywhere.


Yeah, that was what I meant. 

I haven't played ME2 in a few months but if I remember correctly there were hints about Shepard having implants (which were the cause of my ren-Sheps scars and the glowing para/ren eyes) and in Overlord Shep got hacked. Those suggested that Shepard had some high-end tech in her, but it would've helped the story-arc if Project Lazarus was handled with more detail already in ME2. 

#139
Giantdeathrobot

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It's not space magic. Very, very advanced tech, but thats a given in ME's universe. They make a point of saying it took a very long time, tons of ressources, and the best of Cerberus's scientists. It's a very far cry from rewritting the genetic makeup of every single being in the galaxy instantly.

That being said, I still think it was a cheap way to get Shepard on the Cerberus boat (this and the Alliance suddendly not giving a damn about its colonies) and generally not very well written at all.

#140
nos_astra

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Giantdeathrobot wrote...
It's not space magic. Very, very advanced tech, but thats a given in ME's universe. They make a point of saying it took a very long time, tons of ressources, and the best of Cerberus's scientists. It's a very far cry from rewritting the genetic makeup of every single being in the galaxy instantly.

They also make a point by not breathing a word about what was really done or having anyone acknowledge this massive leap in technology and medicine.

Not even the motivation to do this for Shepard holds up to scrutiny.

#141
David7204

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Who is 'they'? Cerberus or the writers?

#142
Giantdeathrobot

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klarabella wrote...

They also make a point by not breathing a word about what was really done or having anyone acknowledge this massive leap in technology and medicine.

Not even the motivation to do this for Shepard holds up to scrutiny.


Don't they say that Cerberus almost makes the costs back by selling all their prototype tech they acquired via Lazarus? It's a giant leap, of course, but so is the Normandy for example. Prototypes, one-time projects just too expensive to recreate. So it didn't break my suspension of disbelief.

I do agree that TIM's motive is a bit sketchy. If Shepard was a Renegade and prone to be a Cerberus fanboy, then it's believable. But why the hell would he go to all those lenghts to bring back a goody two shoes Paragon who would spit in his face if Shepard's personality was unaltered?

#143
David7204

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Because Shepard still has great value even if he isn't working for Cerberus.

#144
TemplePhoenix

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Giantdeathrobot wrote...

It's a giant leap, of course, but so is the Normandy for example. Prototypes, one-time projects just too expensive to recreate.


Yeah, this. I figure the LP is too expensive, too time-consuming and has too slim a chance of success to ever make it worthwhile for Cerberus to repeat, and certainly not for the rest of the galaxy to bother pursuing any time soon. Actually, I can MAAAAYBE see TIM reserving a Lazarus suite for himself in the eventuality that something happens to him, but for anyone else? Nah, forget it; even if his right-hand (Miranda) died, he wouldn't bother resurrecting them; he can always get more employees. Shepard really was a special deal.

As to the space magic aspect, I just figure the vacuum suits/armor the Alliance uses in ME are super-advanced; not enough to stop you dying from planetary re-entry (just as it doesn't stop you dying from sustained weapons fire), but enough so that there's a workable charred meatchunk left rather than a pile of ashes.

#145
David7204

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Shepard would not burn up. Really, that is just nonsense. People look at meteors and space shuttles and fail to take into the account the one crucial difference between them and Shepard - that meteors and space shuttles are already moving at many thousands of meters per second when they approach planets, and Shepard isn't. Also the simple fact that enough metoers fall to Earth without burning up for us to have a specific term for them - meteorites.

Modifié par David7204, 26 mars 2013 - 10:06 .


#146
RedBeardJim

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Giantdeathrobot wrote...
That being said, I still think it was a cheap way to get Shepard on the Cerberus boat (this and the Alliance suddendly not giving a damn about its colonies) and generally not very well written at all.


They weren't Alliance colonies. They were *human* colonies, but they'd deliberately settled outside of Alliance space, in the Terminus systems.

#147
thehomeworld

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Shep can't leave at any time physically or even in the possible sense. Miranda is there to make sure he stays tied to Cerberus she's the real commander not shep. She also has cameras to catch him in the act and she reads all his emails shep can't leave or message for help or quietly plot with his friends because Miranda has access to it all and if she does do do others she can't possibly work 24/7 on spying on shep. We also have Kelly and EDI who help to spy on shep and keep him chained to Cerberus. So no we can't leave, we should've been able to as a poster suggested a long time ago shep could say FU tim storm out of the base go to the Alliance get turned down then go to the Council and get turned down by them then have to come back to TIM if he wants to keep the plot rolling if the player isn't ready to do that they can just hang out and do whatever but the plot won't move forward until you go back to TIM.

TIM keeps shep isolated by not allowing him to contact his old friends who weren't approved by Cerberus Shep also makes no effort to contact them one could say thats because Miranda would've stopped the email or jammed the call but players can't do anything to attempt to reach them. More railroading


For the LP there is not only tons wrong with it but also loop holes created with it!

Shep's body "servived" planet reentery ie burning up and it "survived" smashing into the icy ground below sorry even if it had the gravity of the moon the body would still be dust.

However Liara's comic retcons this physical fact we see a chared shell shep but wait the planet itself retcons her comic! The helmet and the chest plate were found on the world. Legion says he found part of your armor and repaired himself with it and you yourself find the helmet. Liara also has your chest plate and chared shep was naked so all this implies somewhere between the SB and Liara someone striped him ripping the armor off and somehow doing that with a fradgile corpse didn't break more off? In the opening X-rays we see shep has lost part of his leg below the knee. You unwrap a mommy wrong and the whole thing will snap and I'm suppose to believe they could strip shep load him into a cryo tube and he's ok?

Brain damage sorry dead for 2 years = shep's dumber then a rock if you go over the 1 minute mark and you're revived your risk of brain damage, nerve damage, or cellar damage increase tremendously so shep wouldn't be perfect upon waking up.

The only way to fix said brain damage is to plug shep into a reaper husk maker we know those things can correct such issues via them not caring about the gaping holes in their chests but we also know they're only aware of so much basically they have zombie syndrome.

There is no ingame evidence of any other technology available to recharge and fix shep and TIM's secret closet of technology isn't evidence its blanket argument if we don't see it or read it in the books you can therefore say it doesn't exist and isn't available in the world unless BW wants to do what they did with the endings and cram a round peg and a square hole and hope people don't notice. If they can fix death they can cure Miranda and Jack oddly they don't. The only death solving tech open is reaper based and made.

Clone shep makes more problems once real shep was up a running why didn't TIM destroy him? How is it Miranda didn't know about him? She was head of the project we're expected to believe that the head of the project didn't know about the clone they were using as spare parts? We also have the problem of Shep was the only test subject so does that mean clone shep was that test subject? Or was real shep that test subject? We have no evidence.

Cerberus shows a history of testing touchy techniques on other people in order to protect their primary test subject see Jack for this real shep was Jack 2.0 and clone shep was all the other children 2.0 yet Miranda didn't know this but Jacob kind of knows?

Why wake up clone shep? Maybe Brooks did it but if real shep's people couldn't find him how was Brook able to find clone shep? Why wasn't clone shep guarded and monitored? Why grow a full body when all you needed were the parts? I can grown arms, liver, eyes, ect and keep them suspended in solution I don't need a brain or spine because if my patient needs a brain or spinal cord he's way to gone for me to work with.

Did we have two ships? How does clone shep get around? Did clone shep get a brain chip? How did TIM know this chip would interfere with how shep was unless they gave it to clone shep woke him up and tried it out?

How did they give shep his memories? How did they know it was going to work? Was Liara brought in to help with this? Outside of LI shep how would she know info on Tali's pilgrimage gift, or other important shep only things? Are we to believe that Liara was melding far deeper then she said in ME with shep?

What about shep's psychological state? HE DIED that effects everyone whose ever returned from that state they're never the same yet TIM thinks shep would be? No treatment just day one up off the table get to work? What if shep had a break down during the mission?

Shep had glaring weaknesses hacking, weaknesses to emp and Miranda, Wilson , or TIM didn't foresee this? And after all that happened there were no patches done? These two things alone make shep a walking liability and yet they make him the spear head of their operation in ME3. Miranda just seemed to "forget" about the fact reapers can hack reaper code?

Shep has reaper code yet no reaper parts? Really we're expected to believe this? EDI is made from reaper tech the metal in shep's bones, the nodes, the enhanced eyes, his fake skin yet I'm suppose to believe none of this is reaper based? Just because it doesn't indoctrinate doesn't mean shep isn't made from reaper everything the most advanced civilization is the reapers you can't even say the protheans are because they were dependent on reaper tech fully.

Shep's viability in 3 they keep saying how shep would make a great parent but can shep even have kids? Like everything else after 24hours of death everything breaks down even if you keep them on ice or cryogeniclly frozen there is cellar damage even sperms or eggs must be disguarded from donation centers after a point because the samples are too damaged so can shep even have kids? If Cerberus thought this was something else they needed to fix why didn't Miranda sign up for it too?

BW has done nothing to explain the LP or improve upon us understanding it they simply gave us 3 videos in 3 that rehashed what we already found in ME2 shep was dead, it was next to impossible to bring him back, yet somehow they do and he's fully functioning and aware, time to fight the collectors....

So far the games themselves are doing a better job of showing us what probably went into shep:

Sanctuary looks like a direct pull from what they learned between David, Shep, and Grayson they could fully control how many, what types, and how smart their reaper thralls were they could make solider class like their cannon fodder or husk banshees there wasn't any limit to what the could achieve.

The various reaper making devices around dragon teeth are amongst the most popular however they aren't the only ones back in ME they've found small things that indoctrinated that then prompted the thrall to make their friends into husks. These kill, break down the organic cells and replace them with electronic cell like things and they reanimate the dead into conscious beings they may have low intelligence but they're back, kicking, and fallowing orders. We know after the reapers leave the husks display some sense of intelligence however they refuse to do anything to help themselves and slowly starve to death.

We know there is not cure for sterility see Miranda clone or not it would be fixable if she found away during the LP.

Clones have genetic markers making them obvious to those who know what to look for so clone shep can't be real shep the scanners would know, the doctors would know.

AI and humans can be combined see David so its possible shep is an AI but again no ingame evidence to support this Legion would at least be able to tell if shep was broadcasting signals and of course when they loaded him into the consensus. Not to mention Lev would've been able to tell.

#148
thehomeworld

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iakus wrote...

It's space magic, plain and simple. The first real sign of story decay in the trilogy.

The President of the UNAS "dies of a stroke for an hour and a half and basically gets turned into a VI. But Shepard can somehow spend two years dead and come back exactly as before? Because reason.


Oh I forgot about him! But I remember them saying he was so bad mentally they were looking to not only remove him of his post but redeclare him dead because of how extensive his nerve and mental damage was. Another reason for why shep being brain dead at least 1 1/2 years makes no sense.

And now that I think about it...remember that man who was brain dead on the ship with the crazy biotic woman if such reserrection technolgy existed why didn't they use it on him? I highly doubt Cerberus found the solution to death in 1 - 1 1/2 years and used it on nobody muchless didn't market the crap out of it.

#149
knightnblu

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Unless you are familiar with the biology, you are likely to not be as impressed as you should be with the premise of bringing back Shepard from biological death. Add in the damage done by ice crystals to the cellular structures and the damage from trauma (the shattered skeleton on the x-rays give a good indication of that) and it becomes more a miracle than the resurrection. Further, the 4 billion credits price tag was way cheap in my estimation, especially given that they were able to revive his memories and personality as well. Somebody better hand Ms. Lawson the Nobel Prize for medicine for her singular achievement. Or maybe a Tupari.

With man being able to create anti-matter, black holes, rail guns, particle beam weapons today and on the cusp of being able to build an engine capable of interstellar travel and quantum computers (from a theoretical standpoint), why should being able to reverse biological death in Shepard's time be impossible? The impossible is only the improbable and the improbable is always possible. Given enough money and scientific knowledge anything is possible. Even a Dyson sphere is possible, but it is unlikely to ever be constructed because of resource limits.

Science, like science fiction, is only bounded by man's imagination.

#150
Iakus

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thehomeworld wrote...

iakus wrote...

It's space magic, plain and simple. The first real sign of story decay in the trilogy.

The President of the UNAS "dies of a stroke for an hour and a half and basically gets turned into a VI. But Shepard can somehow spend two years dead and come back exactly as before? Because reason.


Oh I forgot about him! But I remember them saying he was so bad mentally they were looking to not only remove him of his post but redeclare him dead because of how extensive his nerve and mental damage was. Another reason for why shep being brain dead at least 1 1/2 years makes no sense.

And now that I think about it...remember that man who was brain dead on the ship with the crazy biotic woman if such reserrection technolgy existed why didn't they use it on him? I highly doubt Cerberus found the solution to death in 1 - 1 1/2 years and used it on nobody muchless didn't market the crap out of it.


Indeed.  The Lazarus Project is not only space magic to those of us living in the 21st century, it's pretty much space magic to those living in the Mass Effect universe!