13 réponses à ce sujet

[gingerbill]

I completed NWN 2 with a rogue/assasin , was annoying in certain chapters as almost every monster was immune to sneak attack .

Whats it like in MOTB for a rogue??

Kind of seem silly making a campaign that nullifies the main point of a class , they should say when you pick a rogue " this class is basically made useless in this campaign".

[Dann-J]

Does a bear sit in the woods? MotB is mostly undead, elementals and spirits.

There are certain weapon properties that allow critical hits against those creature types though; Death's Ruin for undead, Spirit's Ruin for incorporeals (on a falchion), Elemental's Ruin for elementals (on a rapier), and Nature's Ruin for plant creatures.

Modifié par DannJ, 25 mars 2013 - 11:52 .

[Arkalezth]

At least in MotB you can take Epic Precision.

[Dann-J]

There are plenty of epic-level traps and locks that require a dedicated rogue to deal with though, and you get experience for unlocking and deactivating things, so rogue characters aren't a complete wash. One of the companions has a rogue/construct familiar, but he won't be good enough to get through some of the tougher (optional) locks.

Modifié par DannJ, 25 mars 2013 - 11:58 .

[Arkalezth]

You don't need a pure rogue to deal with those, though. Skills are definitely useful, and as I said, Epic Precision makes sneak-attackers more workable, but a Rogue 1/X 29 is as good at disarming traps and opening locks as a Rogue 30.

[Dann-J]

Arkalezth wrote...

You don't need a pure rogue to deal with those, though. Skills are definitely useful, and as I said, Epic Precision makes sneak-attackers more workable, but a Rogue 1/X 29 is as good at disarming traps and opening locks as a Rogue 30.

I find that multiclass rogues are best achieved by taking the alternate class for the first few levels, then adding a level of rogue every three or four levels from then on to top up the class-specific skills. Ranger/rogue or bard/rogue are good compatible combinations, since you can build up your Search, Hide and Move Silently skills in between rogue levels, but a fighter/rogue will generally have to concentrate on just a couple of rogue skills exclusively (usually Open Locks and Disable Device - although a poor Search skill makes the latter less useful).

Modifié par DannJ, 26 mars 2013 - 01:58 .

[Arkalezth]

If you need more skill points, there's Intelligence, and not every rogue is a sneaker. Anyway, I'm not discussing the merits of the different rogue multiclasses. My point is that there's no benefit in taking a lot of rogue levels in order to deal with traps and locks, as you can do that as well with just a dip, and spend the rest of the levels however you want.

I think your post was a bit misleading in that regard (i.e. rogue skills are useful, but you don't need to be a dedicated rogue in order to have them).

[Dann-J]

Arkalezth wrote...

If you need more skill points, there's Intelligence, and not every rogue is a sneaker. Anyway, I'm not discussing the merits of the different rogue multiclasses. My point is that there's no benefit in taking a lot of rogue levels in order to deal with traps and locks, as you can do that as well with just a dip, and spend the rest of the levels however you want.

I think your post was a bit misleading in that regard (i.e. rogue skills are useful, but you don't need to be a dedicated rogue in order to have them).

Indeed. The main reason to be a dedicated rogue would be to build up your sneak attack - which isn't very useful in MotB without a weapon with one of the special critical properties.

Although there's not much point having a high Disable Device skill if you have a low Search skill, so multiclassing in a class that supports Search (and preferably has a lot of skill points) would still be preferable. Unless you do a bit of clever multiclassing, and are able to cast Find Traps (bard 3 or cleric 2) - but even then, you'd have to invest in some decidedly non-rogue ability types (charisma or wisdom).

[Arkalezth]

But who says that you can't max Search too? See this example. It has everything it needs, even though 27 of its levels are spent in low skilled classes.

[I_Raps]

I want to interject here - Kaji (the familiar DannJ mentioned above) can get you through any door in MOTB. Since you will of necessity have a wizard along with you, you can pump him with Greater Heroism, plus there is an item you'll find early on that can give him Greater Cat's Grace (and there is even a Prayer available if necessary).

There ARE some traps he can't disable, but he can set them off. Energy Immunity will keep him alive for most of them, a good Save and a lot of hit points will normally weather the storm on the others.   If not, well, he can be rebuilt ("we have the technology").  The secret here is to right-click and do the lock first before blowing him up.

Moreover - a rogue PC isn't going to have much luck against those traps, either; you can only get your ranks so high, you can't take 20, and no thieves' tools are going to help.  A very smart epic bard/rogue with a Headband of Intellect has the only good chance.

Now then - back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Modifié par I_Raps, 26 mars 2013 - 09:37 .

[Dann-J]

I had trouble getting Kaji to open some of the harder doors in Myrkul's temple, but then I was only casting plain old Cat's Grace on him (not the Greater version), and using my multi-classed bard character to Inspire Competance. I hadn't thought of Greater Heroism.

[gingerbill]

thnanks for the info , my character is a an assassin rogue , really like the character as well but seems it might be a waste in MOTB , very silly they can let that happen .

I'm shortsword spec so those special weapons wouldnt be much good to me . Never had epic precision , it does 50% sneak damage against all immune creatures? not sure if that would make it worth playing or not.

It's annoying as i had a druid before i really liked but the way the game works my druid became to much hassle with getting changed before conversations and being surrounded . They really should make every class worth playing or at least warn you.

[Arkalezth]

As already explained, yes, DEX rogues can work in MotB (read: in epic) due to Epic Precision. I think the feat's description is clear enough.

Alternatively, you can just craft a couple of +8, +15d6 elemental damage short swords...

Rogues' crappiness in the OC (note that I said the OC, not MotB) has been mentioned countless times in the last six years. They might not tell you in game, but frankly, it's pretty easy to find out if you do a bit of research. Besides, not every rogue has a low STR score.

[Dann-J]

gingerbill wrote...

I'm shortsword spec so those special weapons wouldnt be much good to me . Never had epic precision , it does 50% sneak damage against all immune creatures? not sure if that would make it worth playing or not.

The various 'ruin' properties for weapons also only allow for half the usual sneak attack damage, although each property only affects a certain type of creature. Apparently there's a Builder's Ruin property as well, that targets constructs.

A rogue with Epic Precision and at least one level of Shadow Dancer or eight levels of Assassin (to get Hide in Plain Sight) could potentially be very effective. It'd be a matter of slowly chipping away at enemies though - hide, flank, strike, disengage, repeat. Epic Precision doesn't allow the assassin's Death Attack ability to work on critical-immune beasties though.

Although as Arkalezth points out, given how much enhancement and elemental damage you can add to your weapons in MotB, sneak attack damage would really only be the icing on the cake.