236 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
But it didn't lead to his freedom at all, but insanity, corruption and death. It's possible that Dumat could have wrongly guessed; it's possible, too, that even Dumat thought that the city was supposed to be golden, but that the whole thing was some kind of trap... or a remnant of a previous world, far older than the Thedas we know of.

It created the Darkspawn which lead to his freedom. You're assuming that Dumat cared in the sligthest about being corrupted. Judging by Corypheus, all it did was make him even more powerful plus indestructible except to Grey Wardens.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 mars 2013 - 02:42 .

[Willowhugger]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I'd be happy with the Old Gods being bona fide gods.

Eh, I think the god issue should remain nebulous.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
But it didn't lead to his freedom at all, but insanity, corruption and death. It's possible that Dumat could have wrongly guessed; it's possible, too, that even Dumat thought that the city was supposed to be golden, but that the whole thing was some kind of trap... or a remnant of a previous world, far older than the Thedas we know of.

It created the Darkspawn which lead to his freedom. You're assuming that Dumat cared in the sligthest about being corrupted. Judging by Corypheus, all it did was make him even more powerful plus indestructible except to Grey Wardens.

The archdemons are ghouls, and driven on crazed frenzies of destruction in which their minds aren't their own, which is why it's a big deal to have a free Old God soul untainted by the darkspawn. Corypheus, on the other hand, seems to have retained his mind; he and the others are the sources of the taint, whereas the archdemons are victims of it.

[MisterJB]

Foshizzlin wrote...
If anything, I think Dumat felt like his corruption wasn't even a negative thing in the slightest. He wanted to take over the Golden City, and now he was not only nigh-invincible and powerful, but he would command an endless horde of creatures who did nothing but mindlessly serve the Archdemon later on. Dumat probably felt pretty triumphant.

You know what I would love? If it was revealed that Dumat helped build Tevinter so that, one day, there would be mages with acess to ungodly amounts of lyrium and slaves just for the purposes to invade the Golden City and create the Darkspawn.

"Just as planned!:devil:"

[Xilizhra]

Meh. This sits poorly with me; I'd like the Old Gods to be more morally ambiguous than wholly evil, if possible.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The archdemons are ghouls, and driven on crazed frenzies of destruction in which their minds aren't their own, which is why it's a big deal to have a free Old God soul untainted by the darkspawn. Corypheus, on the other hand, seems to have retained his mind; he and the others are the sources of the taint, whereas the archdemons are victims of it.

You have no idea whatsoever if Archdemons retain their mind or not. "Darkspawn Chronicles" shows Urthemiel speaking to the Horde.
Look, I understand that you LOVE mages. You LOVE mages to the point that you're even willing to forgive Tevinter just because it's ruled by mages but, honestly, this is getting ridiculous.
These are not benevolent creatures, these are gods who instructed their followers to kill hundreds of thousands of slaves in a blood magic ritual. These are the dragons of Silence(Death), Chaos, Fire, Slaves.
The Old Gods destroy because they are dragon-gods and what is a dragon-god going to do? A dragon-god is going to destroy, that is what a dragon-god is going to do.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 mars 2013 - 02:58 .

[Xilizhra]

You have no idea whatsoever if Archdemons retain their mind or not. "Darkspawn Chronicles" shows Urthemiel speaking to the Horde.

And this means what, exactly?

These are not benevolent creatures, these are gods who instructed that their followers kill hundreds of thousands of slaves in a blood magic ritual. These are the dragons of Silence(Death), Chaos, Fire, Slaves.

You missed out on Beauty, Mystery and Night, I note. In any case, those aren't necessarily anything to do with the inherent nature of the gods themselves; Dumat was the Dragon of Silence because of the vows of silence taken by his priests, for instance. Not to mention that of the four you mentioned, only one is inherently bad (and, IIRC, Andoral had another title before gaining the Slaves one).

The Old Gods destroy because they are dragon-gods and what is a dragon-god going to do? A dragon-god is going to destroy, that is what a dragon-god is going to do.

Clearly you know nothing of D&D, if you're using that as an axiomatic statement about dragon gods in general.

Eh, they sorta tried to add a
spin to the Darkspawn with the Architect, who seemed to think Darkspawn
were wrongly oppressed and had a lot more potential. But there's not
much way to make the Old Gods morally ambiguous. All of them have either
been tainted or driven mad by this point.

Urthemiel is back in action, albeit in a human body.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 mars 2013 - 03:00 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
And this means what, exactly?

If Urthemiel is capable of forming coherent toughts, he should be capable of deciding to do something beyond destroying. Rather, he is not only ordering the Darkspawn to destroy Denerim, he is being rather sadistic about it.

You missed out on Beauty, Mystery and Night, I note. In any case, those aren't necessarily anything to do with the inherent nature of the gods themselves; Dumat was the Dragon of Silence because of the vows of silence taken by his priests, for instance. Not to mention that of the four you mentioned, only one is inherently bad (and, IIRC, Andoral had another title before gaining the Slaves one).

The attributes given to the dragons obviously must have something to do with their inherent natures. I rather doubt these classifications were the result of a dart toss. Dumat was the dragon of silence due to the silence death brings, the vows of silence came after as part of his worship.
Plus, the fact remains that before the Taint ever touched them, Dumat was instructing his followers to sacrifice slaves in his name.

Urthemiel is back in action, albeit in a human body.

We have no idea how that one is going to turn out. However, the simple fact that Urthemiel would, presumably, look like a human would help extablish a connection with fellows humans which would lead to empathy which could help in creating a benevolent personality as opposed to his previous life. I expect that if you look like this, all humans look like ants to you:

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 mars 2013 - 03:11 .

[thats1evildude]

Xilizhra wrote...

But it didn't lead to his freedom at all, but insanity, corruption and death.

What if the taint was the only way to free the Old Gods from the magical stasis that held them beneath the earth?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 26 mars 2013 - 03:20 .

[thats1evildude]

Or the Maker had already withdrawn from the world and didn't care anymore. Which, according to Chantry doctrine, is exactly what happened.

[MisterJB]

Foshizzlin wrote...

I never really followed though how Dumat drew the Darkspawn. Clearly he knew of them, but the fact that he could communicate with them and "draw them with his song" in the Maker's prison either means he was extremely powerful in his own right, or the Maker was just lazy.

The Old Gods are supposed to slumber beneath the earth. Now, where do the souls of intelligent beings go to while they sleep in Thedas?
A bit of a huge oversight from His Omnipotence, the Maker.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

I never really followed though how Dumat drew the Darkspawn. Clearly he knew of them, but the fact that he could communicate with them and "draw them with his song" in the Maker's prison either means he was extremely powerful in his own right, or the Maker was just lazy.

The Old Gods are supposed to slumber beneath the earth. Now, where do the souls of intelligent beings go to while they sleep in Thedas?
A bit of a huge oversight from His Omnipotence, the Maker.

Assuming, of course, that he even exists.

Of course, if he does, I do hope we get a chance to dethrone him, as I confess I would desire to do were several possible manifestations of the Abrahamic god real.

[Xilizhra]

Foshizzlin wrote...

Borrowing a little from God of War wouldn't be too bad, but if the Maker's omnipotent, there wouldn't be any logical way to beat him, and if he did return as some evil thing, maybe you would fight him, but if he suddenly returns to end the Mage - Templar War and the Darkspawn, why would you want to dethrone him if he starts doing something right?

The Maker certainly doesn't act very omnipotent, and I don't know if omnipotence is even part of the Chantry's doctrine, as opposed to something those used to Christianity have just assumed about its fantasy ersatz version. And I would dethrone the Maker if he continues to act as he's always allegedly done prior, namely uncaring and tyrannical.

[Willowhugger]

Of course, if he does, I do hope we get a chance to dethrone him, as I confess I would desire to do were several possible manifestations of the Abrahamic god real.

It depends, I suppose whether you assume the Chantry's version is real or Leliana's "Joan of Arc Jesus is Way Cool and Big On Love" version.

[MisterJB]

Foshizzlin wrote...

You'd think knowing his greatest enemy rising up to slaughter everything would've drawn his attention just a little.

I expect it went something like this:

"Maker: WELCOME TO THEDAS, MY CHILDREN! I AM YOUR CREATOR, YOU'RE FREE TO START WORSHIPPING WHENEVER YOU WANT!

Dumat: No, worship me instead. I'm big, powerful and I breathe fire. I'm way cooler than This old coot. Plus, I'll give you blood magic.

Maker: SHUT UP, BAD DUMAT! BAD DRAGON-GOD! STOP TRYING TO CORRUPT THE NEW BABY! GO BENEATH THE GROUND AND THINK A BIT ON WHAT YOU'RE DOING!

Thalsian(who had to ruin it for everyone): Dude, did you see that dragon-thing. He was so cool, we should totally worship him.

Maker: OH, IF YOU LIKE HIM SO MUCH, YOU CAN HAVE HIM! YOU CAN EVEN FREE HIM, I DON'T GIVE A SH*T. SEE HOW YOU LIKE HIM ONCE HE IS FREE."

[Xilizhra]

Foshizzlin wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

Borrowing a little from God of War wouldn't be too bad, but if the Maker's omnipotent, there wouldn't be any logical way to beat him, and if he did return as some evil thing, maybe you would fight him, but if he suddenly returns to end the Mage - Templar War and the Darkspawn, why would you want to dethrone him if he starts doing something right?

The Maker certainly doesn't act very omnipotent, and I don't know if omnipotence is even part of the Chantry's doctrine, as opposed to something those used to Christianity have just assumed about its fantasy ersatz version. And I would dethrone the Maker if he continues to act as he's always allegedly done prior, namely uncaring and tyrannical.

Except a theory by a lot of people in the game is that the Maker sent the Warden to end the Blight. There's been 5 failed Blights so far, and if in canon the Maker really is intervening, that doesn't seem so bad.

One would think that investiture would fade if Andraste's ashes were defiled, no? And the only one I recall who said that is Kirkwall's ecclesiastical village idiot, Elthina.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 mars 2013 - 03:36 .