236 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

I would be wary of using Chantry writing for an objective portrayal of an opposing religion. As for why the plains were named as such, well, you may be on to something there =)

[Mr.Sink123]

Fen'Harel imprisoned the Forgotten Ones in the abyss.
The Maker imprisoned the Old Gods in the earth.

Forgotten Ones =? Old Gods
Fen'Harel =? The Maker

[flyermaria]

I like the ambiguity, and I hope we're never given a definitive truth on the matter.

[hazarkazra]

Trolldrool wrote...

I remember reading somewhere that at the apex of their power, the Tevinter mages were so constantly exposed to lyrium that their bodies became deformed and they barely resembled human. That could imply that the first darkspawn disfigurements were already present before they entered the City and not divine punishment.

Well, I would say that in Legacy you can definetly see some Lyrium like growth on Corpheus, but not so much on the Architect? Personally I think the Architect is too young to be an original Tevinter magister.

My opinon is that the Andrastain faith uses historical events to validate it's existence, but just because the events happened doesn't mean they are any proof that the Chantry is actually right. I don't really like the comparison to RL events because I don't want a proxy-discussion about RL religion, but in this case Jeanne D'Arc is just an obvious perfect (and hopefully relatively safe) example. Just because she was a real historical figure doesn't mean she is proof of the Divine. And to me Andraste fits the same category.

I feel we can definetely agree that Andraste existed, the Black City exists and I would even go as far as whatever the Black City is, it seems to be a causal link to the origin of the Darkspawn. Yet everything else is simply conjecture. So even Corypheus talking about the events he claims to have seen isn't proof that the Maker exists, just that the Chantry borrowed something that actually happened to add to it's mythos. I would even go as far to see it might prove the Chantry twisted the facts, seeing that Corypheus seem to claim the city was not gold when he arrived. Maybe it has always been the Black City and even the Magisters were just misinformed.

 I think whatever the Black City is, it is linked to the Witch Hunt DLC (and morrigan's discoveries about what's behind the looking glass) and it has always been a place of corruption.

flyermaria wrote...

I like the ambiguity, and I hope we're never given a definitive truth on the matter.

Agreed, whether people like it or not, ambiguity is what makes a religion something to believe in, instead of something you know.

[RepHope]

Would being an Atheist in DA count as a "Flat Earth Atheist" example?

[LobselVith8]

ChaosMorning wrote...

Since the (not so) new information that we'll be able to play a fine atheistic or agnostic character in DA: Inquisition was released I have been thinking about a few things in relation to the Andrastian faith and magic...
                          

• There have been theories made, and Anders himself mentioned in the Legacy DLC that he believes the Chantry's version of the darkspawn creation is propoganda against mages and that the darkspawn were not created by any supposed corruption of a 'Golden City'

                
Technically, this contradicts what Anders says in Awakening and in Dragon Age II's Tevinter Amulet quest, where he says he believes in the Chantry version of the fall of the Golden City. He even argues with Merrill over her religious views because her Dalish beliefs contradict the Andrastian views of the denizens of the Fade being Spirits and Demons (i.e. the "Children of the Maker"). I don't know why Anders was written so OOC for Legacy when it contradicts so much of his previous characterization and behavior.
                                
It didn't really serve any point at all except to be a glaring OOC character arc for Anders. It would have made more sense if this was an opinion that could be voiced by Hawke, given the way some players were dissatisfied with how Hawke was limited to voicing one perspective on the matter of the Andrastian religion.                

ChaosMorning wrote...
                

This point  can of course be disputed when we see that Corypheus, one of the original magisters, had entered the Golden City.  He said something about the City, that it was either already Black or that it was corrupted as soon as the magisters entered.

This has lead to a few debates about the validity of the Chantry version, including debates about whether the Magisters were even the first 'awakened' darkspawn.
                

ChaosMorning wrote...

The Black City can supposedly be seen in the Fade. I don't know what to say for this one.

Andraste herself. There was some speculation in game (by way of a book/gift for Wynne) that had stated Andraste was actually a mage, not the Maker's beloved.  

                
There is some speculation about the Black City. I believe Ethereal has proposed the theory that it could be tied to the desecration and fall of the ancient kingdom of Arlathan. Hard to say, since we really don't know the truth of the matter. 

As for Andraste being a mage, I remember my Surana Warden giving that gift to Wynne; the concept that Andraste was really a mage is an interesting idea.
                

ChaosMorning wrote...
                

The Urn of Sacred Ashes: the Urn isn't proof itself, Oghren states that the Urn could have gotten its powers from lyrium exposure as opposed to being blessed.

None of this is really 'new' but I am wondering what people are hoping will be mentioned about the Andrastian faith in Inquisition.

Personally I like the vagueness of it all, but I hope some of these themes are revisited, in particular the idea that Andraste was a mage and that her Ashes were lyrium addled as opposed to being blessed. 

                
It would be nice to see some people who believe that Andraste was a mage, since the survival of one of the books on the issue suggest that this line of thought may not have been completely eradicated by the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. However, I doubt that any Andrastians would have Oghren's knowledge about the thick wall of lyrium that was effecting the entire temple.

[hazarkazra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It would be nice to see some people who believe that Andraste was a mage, since the survival of one of the books on the issue suggest that this line of thought may not have been completely eradicated by the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. However, I doubt that any Andrastians would have Oghren's knowledge about the thick wall of lyrium that was effecting the entire temple.

While it would definetely be a nice touch I think the problem is that a lot of the great events of Thedas can be traced back to "a mage did it". It would be nice if Andraste was 'just' a person, showing that you don't always need magic to make a difference in Thedas.

I did not know about the Lyrium thing, but I feel thats a satisfying anwer for its healing properties. But if the walls are full of lyrium, won't we see lyrium poisoning among the pilgrims and faithfull that stayed at the temple too long? 

[LobselVith8]

RepHope wrote...

Would being an Atheist in DA count as a "Flat Earth Atheist" example?

It wouldn't be any different than being an atheist in real life, considering that there's no proof that any gods actually exist in Thedas. This isn't the Elder Scrolls, after all, where Daedric Princes and Aedra actually exist and interact with humanity and the other sentient races of Mundus (to varying degrees); there's no actual proof that the Maker or the Creators actually exist in Dragon Age. However, even Daggerfall allowed the player to create and play as a character who wasn't beholden to worshipping one of the gods (despite the fact that everyone in Mundus knew that the Aedra and Daedra existed).

Having many options to craft your protagonist's point of view is a nice touch that I liked about the original Dragon Age. What was cool was how, in Origins, the Cousland protagonist could state he (or she) didn't believe in the Maker. The Surana protagonist could condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales for religious reasons, and make it clear that the Maker wasn't his god. The Warden could inform Leliana that he didn't view Andraste as a divine instrument of the Maker, and the Warden-Commander could tell Justice that he thought belief in the Maker was "foolish superstition."

Of course, you could also play as someone who genuinely believed in the Maker and Andraste. Even asking for a blessing from the local Chantry. You had options in how you wanted to shape your protagonist, which was a great touch that made the protagonist genuinely feel like he was your character. And that's part of why I liked Origins so much - my Surana Warden really felt like he was my character.

[Willowhugger]

RepHope wrote...

Would being an Atheist in DA count as a "Flat Earth Atheist" example?

I don't believe so, anymore than being an atheist in RL would be (and I am a believer). Aside from Archdemons and Fade spirits, ther'es no indication anything divine exists other than people's faith.

[Maria Caliban]

I'd love to see an exploration of the metaphysical underpinning of song and music in the DA setting.

Thus far, music has been used to imply magic, lyrium, the Maker, and the archdreamon, but I'd love to get a coherent explanation for what's doing on when characters hear music.

ChaosMorning wrote...
Andraste herself. There was some speculation in game (by way of a book/gift for Wynne) that had stated Andraste was actually a mage, not the Maker's beloved.   

A number of anti-Chantry posters love this idea, but I'm not sure what it's meant to prove.

If Andreste was a mage, she still lived in a time where mages enslaved much of the 'world,' performed mass murder, twisted people's minds, and supposedly corrupted the house of god. Such an experience would likely still lead her to believe that mages shouldn't rule over mankind.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 mars 2013 - 05:35 .

[Willowhugger]

I had my own theory that Andraste WASN'T a mage but the guys who built her tomb were. It fits because a bunch of the cultists were mages.

The Urn of Sacred Ashes could be a Blood magic artifact.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 26 mars 2013 - 05:37 .

[Maria Caliban]

If the Urn of Sacred Ashes was a blood magic artifact, I don't think pouring dragon's blood into it would disrupt its power.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 mars 2013 - 05:40 .

[Willowhugger]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If the Urn of Sacred Ashes was a blood magic artifact, I don't think pouring dragon's blood into it would disrupt its power.

Depends on the spell, but good point. I could just be a regular one, too. Oh well.

[Karlone123]

You would probably be allowed to have a skeptical attitude on the Maker's existence, but I would think being an Atheist would be near-impossible because deities do exist in Dragon Age. Unless your character is a complete recluse who has never heard of magic or spirits.

[Willowhugger]

Karlone123 wrote...

You would probably be allowed to have a skeptical attitude on the Maker's existence, but I would think being an Atheist would be near-impossible because deities do exist in Dragon Age. Unless your character is a complete recluse who has never heard of magic or spirits.

Spirits aren't deities anymore than animals or elves are.

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

A number of anti-Chantry posters love this idea, but I'm not sure what it's meant to prove.

If Andreste was a mage, she still lived in a time where mages enslaved much of the 'world,' performed mass murder, twisted people's minds, and supposedly corrupted the house of god. Such an experience would likely still lead her to believe that mages shouldn't rule over mankind.

Depending on how you interpret Andraste's words. The centuries-old society of Haven does suggest that there's more than one interpretation to be made, given how mages are living alongside non-mages in that society. Drakon's Cult of Andraste certainly wasn't the only one; it was simply the one that managed to become the continential religion of Thedas. Another matter of debate that people can disagree on, I suppose.

Regardless, Wynne appreciates the gift of "The Search for the True Prophet", and she's far from anti-Chantry. And some people find the prospect of Andraste being a mage interesting for a multitude of reasons that have little to do with their own views on the Chantry of Andraste or the Order of Templars, since most people agree or disagree with the Chantry and the templars for reasons that have virtually nothing to do with Andraste herself.

[Willowhugger]

I could easily see an Andraste religion based around the idea that magic is HOLY rather than blasphemous.

I.e. The Maker is offended by the use of magic for EVIL rather than magic in general.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 26 mars 2013 - 06:14 .

[rapscallioness]

Mr.Sink123 wrote...

Fen'Harel imprisoned the Forgotten Ones in the abyss.
The Maker imprisoned the Old Gods in the earth.

Forgotten Ones =? Old Gods
Fen'Harel =? The Maker

I always thought that was interesting.

Really, what I'd like to see is that we find out that it's all one story. Extremely ancient. And that the cultures of Thedas each have only a piece of the story. None has the whole story.

Also this story being passed down thru the ages cannot help but fall victim to "telephonegame-itis".

Basically, I'd like to find out the truth. Eventually. And I'd like that truth to be nothing at all like what the ppl of Thedas think it is. I don't think DA3 is going to "answer" these questions, but I do hope DA3 expands on these storylines. Significantly.

Down the road a game, or two, I want to know. There comes a point in a story where I just want to Know that it was the butler that did it in the library w/a candlestick.

I want it to be jaw dropping, yet still be able to look back thru the story and see the elements that led to it.

This kinda stuff fascinates me irl. So, of course, I'm more than a lil intrigued by these themes in game.

I was checking out that Emergent Compendium from Black Emporium. The part abt. Fen'Harel, and 2 spheres amoung the stars. With the cipher of subtitles being ...an eclipse as Fen'Harel stirs. I was like, "Ooohh, hmm what does it all mean?"

Then I remembered that the fans more often than not apply meaning and connection to things that were never meant to be meaningful and connected. Which makes me sad.

[LobselVith8]

Karlone123 wrote...

You would probably be allowed to have a skeptical attitude on the Maker's existence, but I would think being an Atheist would be near-impossible because deities do exist in Dragon Age. Unless your character is a complete recluse who has never heard of magic or spirits. 

Magic doesn't mean a higher power exists. Spirits aren't higher powers. In fact, this is addressed in a discussion Morrigan and Leliana have about the subject (where Leliana inquires if Morrigan believes in the Maker), and Morrigan's argument can pretty much sum up why anyone in Andrastian society would not believe in a higher power in Thedas despite the existance of magic and spirits:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

As Morrigan points out, the existance of magic and spirits doesn't require someone to believe in a higher power, and it doesn't demand that anyone in Thedas actually believe that magic or spirits are definitive proof that any god actually exists. The Cousland protagonist and the Surana protagonist can make it clear that they don't believe in the Maker, as well as the Warden-Commander in Amaranthine. A person who doesn't believe in a higher power was already an option in Thedas. A later discussion between Leliana and Morrigan even has Leliana explicitly mentioning Morrigan's use of magic:

Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?

Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is.

It's not too difficult to imagine that anyone else can come to this conclusion, which is supported by dialogue from the Cousland protagonist, the Surana Warden's comments about the Maker at Ostagar, The Warden's conversation with Leliana after the Urn of Sacred Ashes about Andraste, and the Warden-Commander's dialogue with Justice about the Maker in the City of Amaranthine.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 26 mars 2013 - 06:26 .

[rapscallioness]

Willowhugger wrote...

I could easily see an Andraste religion based around the idea that magic is HOLY rather than blasphemous.

I.e. The Maker is offended by the use of magic for EVIL rather than magic in general.

I could easily see this, too.

[Maria Caliban]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

A number of anti-Chantry posters love this idea, but I'm not sure what it's meant to prove.

Regardless, Wynne appreciates the gift of "The Search for the True Prophet", and she's far from anti-Chantry.

She's also far from being a poster on this board.

Willowhugger wrote...

I.e. The Maker is offended by the use of magic for EVIL rather than magic in general.

The Chantry doesn't consider magic or magic users inherently evil.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 mars 2013 - 07:27 .

[Vilegrim]

RepHope wrote...

Would being an Atheist in DA count as a "Flat Earth Atheist" example?

No, flat earth atheism trope requires the gods to be provably active (ala DnD) They aren't in DA.  Naytheism workd better tho.  Aknowledging that while the big scary spirit/dragon may have god like power, it is not worthy of worship.

[Willowhugger]

The Chantry doesn't consider magic or magic users inherently evil.

No, but it sure as hell treats it like it is. I wish there wasn an option to express the belief the chantry only allows magic users to exist because they're useful against the Chantry's foes.

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

A number of anti-Chantry posters love this idea, but I'm not sure what it's meant to prove.

Regardless, Wynne appreciates the gift of "The Search for the True Prophet", and she's far from anti-Chantry

She's also far from being a poster on this board.

Considering that the entire point of "The Search for the True Prophet" is that it's a gift to be given to Wynne (who, based on her dialogue and characterization, isn't anti-Chantry), I remain uncertain as to why you seem to think it's supposed to "prove" anything. Some people find the idea to be interesting. It's honestly that simple. Simply because people find the idea to be interesting doesn't mean it's meant to be fodder for the mage and templar debates; it's simply something that some people like, for one reason or another.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

I.e. The Maker is offended by the use of magic for EVIL rather than magic in general.

The Chantry doesn't consider magic or magic users inherently evil.  

That's not the impression I got, but to each his own.

[Kenshen]

Willowhugger wrote...

The thing is, the Chantry is also objectively wrong according to Corphyeus.

He says they DIDN'T corrupt the city.

I was never convinced he (they) even knew where they had gone.  It has always been my belief they were duped and led into a trap so to speak.  I have some theories as too why but not a shred of proof.  One thing I am curious about and hoping someone here can help me is how much time has past since the first blight?  The calendar on the wiki makes no sense to me.  The reason I ask is because it doesn't appear much has changed in all of that time.  The world and its people have not grown at all in all fields like science, medicine, etc and while this probably isn't completely fair I can't help but blame the chantry for that.  A stagnant world is a dead world in the making.