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The Maker, Magic and Atheism


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#101
karushna5

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Willowhugger wrote...

The Chantry doesn't consider magic or magic users inherently evil.


No, but it sure as hell treats it like it is. I wish there wasn an option to express the belief the chantry only allows magic users to exist because they're useful against the Chantry's foes.


Actually, if you look into it, the First Enchanter decides to go to war, they are not made to do it by the Templars. The Chantry isn't kind to the mages, but it IS the mages who decide who to fight and when, not the Templars.

#102
Mr.Sink123

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aryon69 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The thing is, the Chantry is also objectively wrong according to Corphyeus.

He says they DIDN'T corrupt the city.


I was never convinced he (they) even knew where they had gone.  It has always been my belief they were duped and led into a trap so to speak.  I have some theories as too why but not a shred of proof.  One thing I am curious about and hoping someone here can help me is how much time has past since the first blight?  The calendar on the wiki makes no sense to me.  The reason I ask is because it doesn't appear much has changed in all of that time.  The world and its people have not grown at all in all fields like science, medicine, etc and while this probably isn't completely fair I can't help but blame the chantry for that.  A stagnant world is a dead world in the making.


it should be around 1000 years, 9:20 = 920 if im not mistaken.

#103
karushna5

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To be fair they have advanced, just not to our stage, if you study the history of Fereldan, you see they have come a long way being their own people, think of it as the difference from the year 300 to the year 1300, also magic probably has more to do with a lack of progression then the Chantry.

History, real history, actually didn't just move forward, it moves back a bit, and charges forward, degrades and stagnates it isn't just progressing constantly. Impossible to judge really

#104
Sarcastic Tasha

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I don't think we should ever get a certain answer on whether the Maker is real or not. Not that it should matter anyway, I think its more important to decide what your character believes. First time I played Dragon Age I thought of my Warden as being an atheist but now I don't think that's really particularly realistic. Its common now for people to be atheists but that's because we have science to believe in. People like to have an explanation for things, if there isn't a scientific one then Gods are a good enough explanation. I always make my Dragon Age characters have some sort of faith now.

#105
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My Warden had faith, it felt like the realistic thing to do. I don't think we should ever be told whether the Maker is real or not, and we shouldn't ever see him if he is.

#106
ChaosMorning

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Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd love to see an exploration of the metaphysical underpinning of song and music in the DA setting.

Thus far, music has been used to imply magic, lyrium, the Maker, and the archdreamon, but I'd love to get a coherent explanation for what's doing on when characters hear music.

ChaosMorning wrote...
Andraste herself. There was some speculation in game (by way of a book/gift for Wynne) that had stated Andraste was actually a mage, not the Maker's beloved.   

A number of anti-Chantry posters love this idea, but I'm not sure what it's meant to prove.

If Andreste was a mage, she still lived in a time where mages enslaved much of the 'world,' performed mass murder, twisted people's minds, and supposedly corrupted the house of god. Such an experience would likely still lead her to believe that mages shouldn't rule over mankind.


Music in the Dragon Age has very interesting symbolism, the idea of 'hearing' things the call to you, voices in the lyrium, the Taint Call that effects Wardens and Darkspawn. I hope it is elaborated on as well.

What I would like to see in Inquisition is the ability to question some of these things, not necessarily to argue the Chantry's point, or perhaps even their faith, but I would like to see more on Andraste and her life.

I mean, isn't it possible that Andraste was a bit like a Mage!Hawke that sided with the Templars?  Perhaps not inherently the same, but both believing that magic shouldn't fulfill the role that it was in Tevinter.

A last point to mention on the topic would be the conversation Anders and the Warden-Commander have in Awakening, the idea that Andraste might feel confused about the Circle.  She may not have wanted the mages to be oppressed either, after all.

#107
Kenshen

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karushna5 wrote...

To be fair they have advanced, just not to our stage, if you study the history of Fereldan, you see they have come a long way being their own people, think of it as the difference from the year 300 to the year 1300, also magic probably has more to do with a lack of progression then the Chantry.

History, real history, actually didn't just move forward, it moves back a bit, and charges forward, degrades and stagnates it isn't just progressing constantly. Impossible to judge really


I have not seen anything in their history (stuff I can find in game I should say) that suggests any kind of progress.  I also can not agree with you about our own history.  While things certainly didn't move as fast as it has in the last 200 years there are quite a few things that showed our curiousity and our ability to learn.  Even today we still have a hard time understanding exactly how the ancient egyptian's built the pyramids with the precision they did.  The romans did much to advance their society and humanity, we all know about the mayans, and before the crazy leader took control and built the great wall china was way ahead of the curve in many fields.  Sure it isn't smooth line through history it does seem to come in chunks but in the history that we know there has never been a 1000 years period were little to no change occurred. I am talking about recorded history which isn't all that long considering how long we have walked on this planet. 

The reason I point toward the chantry to place blame is from looking at our own past.  Just 400-500 years ago you would be put to death if you questioned what that rainbow was and how it formed.  It was the work of a deity and that is all we needed to know.  Even if you believed in said deity there was no room to question and I get that vibe from the dragon age world.

#108
KiwiQuiche

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RepHope wrote...

Would being an Atheist in DA count as a "Flat Earth Atheist" example?


Actually the whole 'flat earth' thing was first spred by the Chruch during the Medieval Ages. After all, it's a lot easier to indocrinate and control the ignorant and uneducated.

But as it is, Bioware has represented athesim fairly well in DAO and DA2

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 27 mars 2013 - 02:00 .


#109
KiwiQuiche

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Foshizzlin wrote...

My Warden had faith, it felt like the realistic thing to do. I don't think we should ever be told whether the Maker is real or not, and we shouldn't ever see him if he is.



There is a big difference between faith and religious faith. That being said, I agree with you on the Maker issue.

#110
Willowhugger

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Actually the whole 'flat earth' thing was first spred by the Chruch during the Medieval Ages. After all, it's a lot easier to indocrinate and control the ignorant and uneducated.

But as it is, Bioware has represented athesim fairly well in DAO and DA2


No, no it wasn't and no they didn't do it.

The whole "church wants everyone uneducated" is pretty much the opposite of how the church interacted with everyone. It was quite happy spreading education.

The thing is, of course, you couldn't DISAGREE with the church or they'd try you for heresy but that's a distinction between political power and education. The Church is responsible for preserving vast amounts of manuscripts, started the foundation of genetics, and preserved literacy across Europe.

#111
KiwiQuiche

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Willowhugger wrote...

Actually the whole 'flat earth' thing was first spred by the Chruch during the Medieval Ages. After all, it's a lot easier to indocrinate and control the ignorant and uneducated.

But as it is, Bioware has represented athesim fairly well in DAO and DA2


No, no it wasn't and no they didn't do it.

The whole "church wants everyone uneducated" is pretty much the opposite of how the church interacted with everyone. It was quite happy spreading education.

The thing is, of course, you couldn't DISAGREE with the church or they'd try you for heresy but that's a distinction between political power and education. The Church is responsible for preserving vast amounts of manuscripts, started the foundation of genetics, and preserved literacy across Europe.


Dude, it's legit.  Some ancient cultures knew Earths size to milimetres, but the Chruch held a crapload of power in medieval times, and it is far easier to control someone stupid and compliant than it is to control someone intelligent and critical, hence the whole "earth is flat, don't sail too far or you'll fall off the end" thing.

The Church is not a happy fun house. They are also responsble for burning and killing non-believeres, burned books that didn't suit their agenda and lead holy crusades killing thousands and forcibly converting the rest. The Church isn't sunshine and daisy's. It's has a very nasty history which many choose to ignore/bypass.

EDIT: WTF spelling

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 27 mars 2013 - 02:20 .


#112
Willowhugger

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I'm a Masters of Medieval History.

The fact the Earth was round was known for thousands of years due to the fact that sailors were able to note you can see farther the higher you go (like up a mast). The ancient Greeks knew about the Earth being round in the classical period.

The Holy Catholic Church isn't sunshine and roses but it's important to understand the political, economic, and so-on forces which drove its actions. One of the things that I hate as a historian is the guys who try and frame the Renaissance as a Big enlightened time when it's the period that religious persecution (by BOTH sides) was at it's worst as was the brutality of kings.

#113
KiwiQuiche

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Willowhugger wrote...

I'm a Masters of Medieval History.

The fact the Earth was round was known for thousands of years due to the fact that sailors were able to note you can see farther the higher you go (like up a mast). The ancient Greeks knew about the Earth being round in the classical period.

The Holy Catholic Church isn't sunshine and roses but it's important to understand the political, economic, and so-on forces which drove its actions. One of the things that I hate as a historian is the guys who try and frame the Renaissance as a Big enlightened time when it's the period that religious persecution (by BOTH sides) was at it's worst as was the brutality of kings.


"God wills" as it were.

And I never mentioned the Renaissance. I just know it's when some pretty dandy art come out at the time admit all the killings and whatnot.

#114
Willowhugger

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Yeah, sorry, it's off-topic.

I like the Chantry in the game because it's very nuanced.

#115
KiwiQuiche

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Willowhugger wrote...

Yeah, sorry, it's off-topic.

I like the Chantry in the game because it's very nuanced.


True.

Let's get back to how I want to be able to Murder Knife the Maker in DAI if he does show up.

#116
Willowhugger

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I maintain Andraste really DID reincarnate as a dragon and we killed her.

:)

#117
karushna5

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aryon69 wrote...

I have not seen anything in their history (stuff I can find in game I should say) that suggests any kind of progress.  I also can not agree with you about our own history.  While things certainly didn't move as fast as it has in the last 200 years there are quite a few things that showed our curiousity and our ability to learn.  Even today we still have a hard time understanding exactly how the ancient egyptian's built the pyramids with the precision they did.  The romans did much to advance their society and humanity, we all know about the mayans, and before the crazy leader took control and built the great wall china was way ahead of the curve in many fields.  Sure it isn't smooth line through history it does seem to come in chunks but in the history that we know there has never been a 1000 years period were little to no change occurred. I am talking about recorded history which isn't all that long considering how long we have walked on this planet. 

The reason I point toward the chantry to place blame is from looking at our own past.  Just 400-500 years ago you would be put to death if you questioned what that rainbow was and how it formed.  It was the work of a deity and that is all we needed to know.  Even if you believed in said deity there was no room to question and I get that vibe from the dragon age world.


ferelden has gone, according to codexes, a group of hunters in the mountains, to a unified country with lots of farming, and cities...that is progress, at least in this stage of Scientific knowledge that is a LOT of progress.

I actually agree with you on history, but what you are forgetting, is that the Romans were FAR more advanced than the Medieval peasants, that Ancient India gained then lost plumbing. Scientific method or at least something similiar was lost and found several times before the Greeks became Philosophers. Ancient Egyptians and exactly how they built it was lost as well. It is a common mistake to say the greeks invented math because other cultures had not spread it to the same extent. The Middle East was far more advanced Scientifically then it was some time afterward.

What I mean to say...Progress often goes backwards. In our own history it has a dozen times and more. it will again, studying history means you see things we know like say atoms, be learned, forgot, improved, ignored and so on. 1,000 years from now I won't be surprised if we have gone back again. Harrapan empire was one of the most advanced in the world...it fell. All empires fall, and with them also many advancements, only difference today is we have a global culture, the whole world will have to fall to deprogress, which will probably happen with time.

I disagree completely about how the Chantry is. You can dislike and be heretical in origins and mostly the Priestesses just get annoyed. They have bad history, but no one has ever been killed or even suggested to be killed on a minor quibble like rainbows. Even the Qunari were only really attacked in DA2 by one fanatic and the people who disliked them. and they were there for years for that to happen. No one mentioned killing the Viscounts son for converting, only that it would make him look weak. I don't think anywhere in the games is it mentioned you will be killed for not believing in the Maker. There have been Exalted Marches against the Qunari who are somewhat warlike although the innocents who died is appalling, and against the Dales although I feel this has more to do with racism but I don't think anyone has done it to the Avaars or the Chasind. If it is death it is in multitudes, but I can't think of a time an individual was killed for their beliefs in the game in any recent history of Thedas.

#118
Kidd

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Willowhugger wrote...

I maintain Andraste really DID reincarnate as a dragon and we killed her.

:)

That would be the single best thing ever.

Sebastian: If only the Maker's bride was here. She could have turned the tides.
Morrigan: 'tis too bad she is no longer with us, then.
Sebastian: I heard she was reincarnated in our time. But Elthina was never able to pinpoint where.
Inquisitor: Wait, are you seriously suggesting Andraste herself has come back from the dead? That's quite the stretch.
Morrigan: No 'tis not, for it happened. In fact I met the lovely lady just ten years ago.
Sebastian: You have met the holy Andraste? Then you must take us to her!
Morrigan: I will not, for this Hero of Ferelden figure had the idea that dragons bear great loot. Something about a Carsomyr +5, whatever that may mean.
Sebastian: You... killed the prophet?
Morrigan: Charming, isn't it?

#119
KiwiQuiche

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KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

I maintain Andraste really DID reincarnate as a dragon and we killed her.

:)

That would be the single best thing ever.

Sebastian: If only the Maker's bride was here. She could have turned the tides.
Morrigan: 'tis too bad she is no longer with us, then.
Sebastian: I heard she was reincarnated in our time. But Elthina was never able to pinpoint where.
Inquisitor: Wait, are you seriously suggesting Andraste herself has come back from the dead? That's quite the stretch.
Morrigan: No 'tis not, for it happened. In fact I met the lovely lady just ten years ago.
Sebastian: You have met the holy Andraste? Then you must take us to her!
Morrigan: I will not, for this Hero of Ferelden figure had the idea that dragons bear great loot. Something about a Carsomyr +5, whatever that may mean.
Sebastian: You... killed the prophet?
Morrigan: Charming, isn't it?


Posted Image

#120
MisterJB

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I know that we're not discussing it anymore but I just noticed more evidence that the Old Gods were... well, huge a**holes.

Posted Image

Which reminds me the first issue of "Until We Sleep" is out today and I have to buy it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 mars 2013 - 08:50 .


#121
Major Crackhead

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Even if the Maker is confirmed to exist in the setting, I wanna play a Flat Earthed Atheist anyway!

Gimme the option to be a crazed religious character too, though. I always love playing as fanatics.

#122
Vilegrim

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karushna5 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The Chantry doesn't consider magic or magic users inherently evil.


No, but it sure as hell treats it like it is. I wish there wasn an option to express the belief the chantry only allows magic users to exist because they're useful against the Chantry's foes.


Actually, if you look into it, the First Enchanter decides to go to war, they are not made to do it by the Templars. The Chantry isn't kind to the mages, but it IS the mages who decide who to fight and when, not the Templars.


and the unspoken threat of the kill em all letter isn't hanging in the background? Really?

#123
karushna5

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@viligrim
No,actually, an annulment never happens unless the mages are out of control, never if they don't go to war when you ask.

Both annulments in the game happen with a massive upheaval, if it was just do what I say or else, Meredith would have annulled Kirkwall long ago.

In Origins, Gregoir doesn't want to annul but HAS to to keep all those demons under control and at this point his men have been tortured and the mages using blood magic in masse.

I am not saying the chantry is blameless, they sure are not, but they do not just keep mages to go to war.

#124
Kidd

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karushna5 wrote...

I am not saying the chantry is blameless, they sure are not, but they do not just keep mages to go to war.

Sure, they keep them to light their magic candles as well. :whistle:

#125
LobselVith8

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karushna5 wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The Chantry doesn't consider magic or magic users inherently evil.


No, but it sure as hell treats it like it is. I wish there wasn an option to express the belief the chantry only allows magic users to exist because they're useful against the Chantry's foes.


Actually, if you look into it, the First Enchanter decides to go to war, they are not made to do it by the Templars. The Chantry isn't kind to the mages, but it IS the mages who decide who to fight and when, not the Templars.


The fact that Greagor only permitted seven mages to fight at Ostagar would suggest it's a little more complicated than that.