236 réponses à ce sujet

[Trolldrool]

Xilizhra wrote...

And for that matter, most of the clergy men and women in the chantry are civilians. Regular people who have absolutely no influence on the templars' doctrine or treatment of mages. They live seeking deeper spiritual understanding of their faith and do their part to provide for the city's impoverished, homeless and disabled. The Chantry as an organization might be prone to corruption and extremism, but that doesn't make every initiate a legitimate target.

Actually, the only people in the Chantry when it was blown up were Elthina, Meredith's commander, and a bunch of templars. So we saw in the cutscene, at any rate.

Huh. Okay, thanks for clarifying that to me.

[Maria Caliban]

Xilizhra wrote...

And for that matter, most of the clergy men and women in the chantry are civilians. Regular people who have absolutely no influence on the templars' doctrine or treatment of mages. They live seeking deeper spiritual understanding of their faith and do their part to provide for the city's impoverished, homeless and disabled. The Chantry as an organization might be prone to corruption and extremism, but that doesn't make every initiate a legitimate target.

Actually, the only people in the Chantry when it was blown up were Elthina, Meredith's commander, and a bunch of templars. So we saw in the cutscene, at any rate.

I'm not referring to Anders. I'm referring to the gentleman who said that he would continue to bomb chantries until mages were liberated.

I'd argue that Elthina it a legitimate target. She is nominally in charge of all the Templars in Kirkwall* and ultimately responsible for their abuses, even if in practice, she probably has less power than Meredith. What Anders did is not that different from the Arishock going to that one building and slaughtering the Viscount while the nobility watched.

I still think blowing up the chantry she's in is *wrong* but I don't consider it terrorism.

*As I understand Chantry hierarchy.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2013 - 08:50 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, the only people in the Chantry when it was blown up were Elthina, Meredith's commander, and a bunch of templars. So we saw in the cutscene, at any rate.

The falling, burning debris and shockwave will kill plenty.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, the only people in the Chantry when it was blown up were Elthina, Meredith's commander, and a bunch of templars. So we saw in the cutscene, at any rate.

The falling, burning debris and shockwave will kill plenty.

The bomb levitated all of the material far above the city before it exploded, so the shockwave won't have hurt anyone, and the debris will have been scattered so widely that relatively little would land on people, especially as it's late evening and most are in their homes.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The bomb levitated all of the material far above the city before it exploded, so the shockwave won't have hurt anyone, and the debris will have been scattered so widely that relatively little would land on people, especially as it's late evening and most are in their homes.

If you watch the scene again, you will see that the shockwave covered a great area of Hightown in dust with some of the houses being imediatelly caught on fire. Kirkwall is a densely populated city, especially after the ferelden refugees flooded it with a great number of them still remaining since they have no money to buy passage on a ship back to Ferelden. It's improbrable that much of that debris will not fall on people and/or homes.

Modifié par MisterJB, 28 mars 2013 - 09:08 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The bomb levitated all of the material far above the city before it exploded, so the shockwave won't have hurt anyone, and the debris will have been scattered so widely that relatively little would land on people, especially as it's late evening and most are in their homes.

If you watch the scene again, you will see that the shockwave covered a great area of Hightown in dust with some of the houses being imediatelly caught on fire. Kirkwall is a densely populated city, especially after the ferelden refugees flooded it with a great number of them still remaining since they have no money to buy passage on a ship back to Ferelden. It's improbrable that much of that debris will not fall on people and/or homes.

Ah, but many of the Fereldan refugees now have a reason to be thankful for being poor, as Darktown will be immune to the blast entirely. And if the initial shot mostly hit Hightown, that's the least heavily populated portion of the city. It's impossible, alas, to really tell how many casualties there would be either way, but no civilians were deliberately targeted.

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Actually, the only people in the Chantry when it was blown up were Elthina, Meredith's commander, and a bunch of templars. So we saw in the cutscene, at any rate.

The falling, burning debris and shockwave will kill plenty.

The bomb levitated all of the material far above the city before it exploded, so the shockwave won't have hurt anyone, and the debris will have been scattered so widely that relatively little would land on people, especially as it's late evening and most are in their homes.

Actually, in the game it's stated that there are city blocks around the Chantry where people's entire homes and businesses have been destroyed. When Anders said he'd bathe us all in blood to see a change, he really meant it. In his banter with Isabela (I believe it's her. Could be Merril) he admits that justice requires he now pay for all the lives taken in the blast.

Not that I care to really get into this discussion (Admiral Akbar comes to mind) but I was lurking and thought I'd jump in to let you know.

Carry on!

[MisterJB]

Right, Anders just wished for templars and mages and demons fighting in the streets of Kirkwall with the Circle mages becoming unwilling martyrs.
Lovely.

[Trolldrool]

Anders might have designed the initial spell/bomb to harm as few civilians as possible, but he's had to know of the destruction that would follow in its wake. There's no way for the Rite of Annulment to be executed outside the Circle in the very streets of the city and somehow the only casualties are mages and templars.

[MisterJB]

Filament wrote...
The templars answer to the Chantry. Either target is surrounded by the chantry's human shields (mages and chantry initiates/hightown) so to say one would be a "better" target (conveniently, the one full of mages) is silly. And you can ascribe whatever motives you want, but it's not because it targets civilians, because it doesn't, and it's not because it uses terror to coerce demands, because it doesn't. It uses violence to achieve an end- terror and civilian casualties are side effects. That being said, violence to achieve an end when that end is opposed to your own will be called terrorism regardless of the distinctions.

Anders is not using violence to achieve any ends. Killing Elthina, by itself, achieves nothing. The mages won't be free but neither will them be condemned had Meredith been a little more sane.
Had Anders targeted the largest concentration of templars possible and then flooded the city with apostates who would then kill the remaining templars plus the city guard and extablish a free mage state, then Anders would have been using violence to achieve his ends.
Killing Elthina exacerbates the already widespread fear of mages which is what Anders intended "Give them freedom or give them death". The violence used thereafter was used by people who had no relation whatsoever with Anders.
Thus, Anders use terror to achieve a social change which makes him a terrorist.

[brushyourteeth]

MisterJB wrote...

Filament wrote...
The templars answer to the Chantry. Either target is surrounded by the chantry's human shields (mages and chantry initiates/hightown) so to say one would be a "better" target (conveniently, the one full of mages) is silly. And you can ascribe whatever motives you want, but it's not because it targets civilians, because it doesn't, and it's not because it uses terror to coerce demands, because it doesn't. It uses violence to achieve an end- terror and civilian casualties are side effects. That being said, violence to achieve an end when that end is opposed to your own will be called terrorism regardless of the distinctions.

Anders is not using violence to achieve any ends. Killing Elthina, by itself, achieves nothing. The mages won't be free but neither will them be condemned had Meredith been a little more sane.
Had Anders targeted the largest concentration of templars possible and then flooded the city with apostates who would then kill the remaining templars plus the city guard and extablish a free mage state, then Anders would have been using violence to achieve his ends.
Killing Elthina exacerbates the already widespread fear of mages which is what Anders intended "Give them freedom or give them death". The violence used thereafter was used by people who had no relation whatsoever with Anders.
Thus, Anders use terror to achieve a social change which makes him a terrorist.

I couldn't agree with this more.

I also think this is part of what the writers intended -- that Anders is a tragic hero that didn't even have the faculties necessary to complete his intended task. He could have lead a revolution. Instead he made a big ol' mess. It got things going, definitely, but you can hardly pat him on the back for it.

I'm sure that's part and parcel of being joined with a spirit who doesn't have a complete comprehension of how the world works. If he'd just given Hawke a chance to listen...

[Maria Caliban]

Filament wrote...
That being said, violence to achieve an end when that end is opposed to your own will be called terrorism regardless of the distinctions.

Yes, there are people who abuse the English language for ideological reasons. Those people are wrong and need to be called out on it.

[MisterJB]

Filament wrote...
Killing a high ranking political figure in the machine who presides over your oppression to incite a larger war with said machine. If anything, it's assassination.

Assassination would be killing Meredith so a more sane Knight Commander can take over and a Viscount can be elected from the nobility. It's usually done in secrecy and made to look like an accident or a natural death.
Crashing a plane into the White House would be terrorism even if the president is caught in the blast.

[MisterJB]

Filament wrote...

That depends on the circumstances. What if it was a kamikaze and the setting was WW2, not 9/11?

If sanctioned by Japan, it would be an act of war.

[Maria Caliban]

MisterJB wrote...

Filament wrote...
Killing a high ranking political figure in the machine who presides over your oppression to incite a larger war with said machine. If anything, it's assassination.

Assassination would be killing Meredith so a more sane Knight Commander can take over and a Viscount can be elected from the nobility. It's usually done in secrecy and made to look like an accident or a natural death.
Crashing a plane into the White House would be terrorism even if the president is caught in the blast.

If the White House isn't a legitimate military target, then nothing is.

A nation that was at war with the USA would have every reason to bomb the White House. I'd even suggest that blowing up DC shouldn't be considered an act of terrorism. Destroying capitol cities is part of traditional warfare and has been for thousands of years.

[MisterJB]

Anders is not a recognized sovereign state at war with the Chantry which I don't believe is a nation either. His actions were also not meant to give him an advantage over his enemies.

[The Hierophant]

Didn't Anders bomb the Chantry to create fear amongst the Templars hoping that they'll attack the Circle of Magi, and the only reason Meredith took the blatantly obvious bait was because of the Lyrium Idol's mind altering effect? Doesn't that make him a terrorist since he used fear to further his agenda?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 28 mars 2013 - 10:47 .

[BlueMagitek]

I think that a better comparison would be to the assassins of Archduke Ferdinand.

[Willowhugger]

Uh, OF COURSE, Anders is a terrorist. He wouldn't deny it.

The thing is, the game calls into question whether you can use terrorism to a good end.

In this case, starting a war for freedom.

[Trolldrool]

There is no objective way to use the word terrorist. One man's freedom fighter will always be someone else's terrorist. Also, not every freedom fighter have the support of the people they're fighting for because often the people feel they're just creating more suffering and that the freedom earned at the end of the conflict won't be worth the steep price they all have to pay in blood.

Note, I know there are many mages who agree with Anders, else the Circles across Thedas wouldn't be in as much disarray as it is, but we know there are also groups in every Circle who thinks he's only made things worse.

Modifié par Trolldrool, 28 mars 2013 - 11:05 .

[MisterJB]

There is a widely accepted definition of "terrorist" just like there is a widely accepted definition of "killer". It's true that people can believe Anders is just fighting for freedom but that doesn't change the fact he is a terrorist.
Those people will just have to settle for believing that terrorism is, sometimes, necessary.

Modifié par MisterJB, 28 mars 2013 - 11:22 .