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[The Six Path of Pain]

Wonder if the Old Gods really are Deities,I mean they do blow the hell up when they are killed.That may be a release of all their incredible power do to their body dying?Also depending on what character I'm playing they may or may not give a damn about the so called maker being real /:

[Iron Star]

Sorry if something has been said about this, I just had to follow up on this once I saw it.

LobselVith8 wrote...
[*]
[*]Andraste herself. There
was some speculation in game (by way of a book/gift for Wynne) that had
stated Andraste was actually a mage, not the Maker's beloved.
               
As for Andraste being a mage, I remember my Surana Warden giving that gift to Wynne; the concept
that Andraste was really a mage is an interesting idea.
.  

               

This is something that I think is entirely possible. For what we know, spirit healers are pretty rare, and even in the Dragon age most citizens of Thedas don't understand the concept of benevolent fadespirits, and spirit healers are largely unknown. Now, back in Andrastes day and age, spirit healers were perhaps even more rare and unknown (most mages at the time were busy being bloodmages, after all), and if Andraste was a spirit healer, and maybe even an extremely powerful one, maybe some of these spirits have remained behind, attracted or bound to her ashes or something else. That could explain how her ashes have healing properties, without being tied to religion.

This is just pure speculation, of course.

Modifié par Get fired up, 02 avril 2013 - 08:22 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

[The Six Path of Pain]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

My Warden would disagree lol

[Xilizhra]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

Actually, he reversed himself on that one.

[commander root657]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

My Warden would disagree lol

 I think any atheists in Thedas are fools if they do not  believe the chantry to some degree



EDIT: Also even if the old gods and the maker aren't true gods they're probably as close as you can get to one

Modifié par commander root657, 02 avril 2013 - 05:33 .

[LobselVith8]

commander root657 wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

My Warden would disagree lol 

 I think any atheists in Thedas are fools if they do not  believe the chantry to some degree
 

Why? There's no evidence to prove the Maker exists. And the Chantry isn't the only religion in Thedas, as the religious debates between Anders and Merrill can attest to. Some scholars even believe that the Old Gods are simply ancient dragons, and Corpyheus' statement in Legacy lead to debates over the validity of the Chantry's claims about their fable of the Golden City. There's no reason for you to think that any atheist in Thedas is a fool because they don't believe in the Maker or a higher power.

commander root657 wrote...

EDIT: Also even if the old gods and the maker aren't true gods they're probably as close as you can get to one

There's no evidence to prove the Maker exists, and the Old Gods aren't deities.

[Trolldrool]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

I'd say that entirely depends on your definition of an atheist. An atheist, as I've always seen it, is somebody who finds themself unable to believe in the existence of something they cannot personally observe.

By that definition, Morrigan is an atheist.

Most humans and city elves in Andrastian territory however don't have the methods or instruments to explore alternate explanations for how the world works. In other words, since they can't explain the wonders of the world any better than the Chantry, they don't have a reason to believe the Chantry is wrong.

If the Chantry says it's the Maker who control the tides, they don't have the knowledge to speculate that it might be the moon instead is what I'm getting at.

[commander root657]

LobselVith8 wrote...

commander root657 wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

My Warden would disagree lol 

 I think any atheists in Thedas are fools if they do not  believe the chantry to some degree
 

Why? There's no evidence to prove the Maker exists. And the Chantry isn't the only religion in Thedas, as the religious debates between Anders and Merrill can attest to. Some scholars even believe that the Old Gods are simply ancient dragons, and Corpyheus' statement in Legacy lead to debates over the validity of the Chantry's claims about their fable of the Golden City. There's no reason for you to think that any atheist in Thedas is a fool because they don't believe in the Maker or a higher power.

commander root657 wrote...

EDIT: Also even if the old gods and the maker aren't true gods they're probably as close as you can get to one

There's no evidence to prove the Maker exists, and the Old Gods aren't deities.

the old gods were worshipped like deities and the chantry are right about  the origins of the darkspawn. 

[LobselVith8]

Trolldrool wrote...

Most humans and city elves in Andrastian territory however don't have the methods or instruments to explore alternate explanations for how the world works. In other words, since they can't explain the wonders of the world any better than the Chantry, they don't have a reason to believe the Chantry is wrong. 

The Cousland protagonist could say that he didn't believe in the Maker in the Human Noble Origin. The Surana protagonist could condemn the Chantry of Andraste for invading the Dales for religious reasons at Ostagar, and indicate that the Maker wasn't his god. The Warden could inform Leliana that he didn't view Andraste as someone with any divine power (after the events of the Urn of Sacred Ashes). The Warden-Commander could tell Justice that belief in the Maker is a "foolish superstition" (in the City of Amaranthine).

commander root657 wrote...

the old gods were worshipped like deities and the chantry are right about  the origins of the darkspawn. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Being worshipped as a god doesn't make you a real deity. The Old Gods being worshipped as gods doesn't mean they were actually gods - it simply means some people worshipped them as gods.

Also, Corpheus seems to say that the Golden City was Black prior to the arrival of the Magisters, which indicates that the Chantry is wrong in their claim that the Magisters tainted the Golden City. It also suggests that the Magisters may not have been the first darkspawn, or even the first 'awakened' darkspawn. That's essentially the crux behind some of the debates about the validity of the Chantry's claims. 

In addition, what part does this even play in the existance of the Maker? The inception of the darkspawn doesn't prove or disprove the existance of the Maker, who is never even mentioned or acknowledged by Corypheus.

[Xilizhra]

The Cousland protagonist could say that he didn't believe in the Maker in the Human Noble Origin. The Surana protagonist could condemn the Chantry of Andraste for invading the Dales for religious reasons at Ostagar, and indicate that the Maker wasn't his god. The Warden could inform Leliana that he didn't view Andraste as someone with any divine power (after the events of the Urn of Sacred Ashes). The Warden-Commander could tell Justice that belief in the Maker is a "foolish superstition" (in the City of Amaranthine).

Of course, it'd be helpful if we could be told why we had these beliefs.

[commander root657]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Trolldrool wrote...

Most humans and city elves in Andrastian territory however don't have the methods or instruments to explore alternate explanations for how the world works. In other words, since they can't explain the wonders of the world any better than the Chantry, they don't have a reason to believe the Chantry is wrong. 

The Cousland protagonist could say that he didn't believe in the Maker in the Human Noble Origin. The Surana protagonist could condemn the Chantry of Andraste for invading the Dales for religious reasons at Ostagar, and indicate that the Maker wasn't his god. The Warden could inform Leliana that he didn't view Andraste as someone with any divine power (after the events of the Urn of Sacred Ashes). The Warden-Commander could tell Justice that belief in the Maker is a "foolish superstition" (in the City of Amaranthine).

commander root657 wrote...

the old gods were worshipped like deities and the chantry are right about  the origins of the darkspawn. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Being worshipped as a god doesn't make you a real deity. The Old Gods being worshipped as gods doesn't mean they were actually gods - it simply means some people worshipped them as gods.

Also, Corpheus seems to say that the Golden City was Black prior to the arrival of the Magisters, which indicates that the Chantry is wrong in their claim that the Magisters tainted the Golden City. It also suggests that the Magisters may not have been the first darkspawn, or even the first 'awakened' darkspawn. That's essentially the crux behind some of the debates about the validity of the Chantry's claims. 

In addition, what part does this even play in the existance of the Maker? The inception of the darkspawn doesn't prove or disprove the existance of the Maker, who is never even mentioned or acknowledged by Corypheus.

 well i never said the chantry were right about the maker, only that they were to be believed about the origins of darkspawn and doesn't Corpheus suggest that it could have just turned black immediately when they entered the city?

plus being worshipped as a deity makes you a deity even if others dispute it, also i didn't mean that the chantry are the one true religion so i apologise for not making that clear.

[sarnokh]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

My Warden would disagree lol

In essence: atheism is in Thedas impossible per se. Similar as in the European Middle Ages. Not believing in God or Old Gods anything is an impossible figure of thought under such circumstances. Only decaying city civilisations with all their usual degenerative features harbour atheism, like Ancient Rome before the fall, Hellenism before it's fall and the West of present day. Especially under the expected repression, atheism would mean quick death. But even without repression: nobody would come to think atheistic. It simply is not within the psychology of such cultural setting.

[Xilizhra]

sarnokh wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

My Warden would disagree lol

In essence: atheism is in Thedas impossible per se. Similar as in the European Middle Ages. Not believing in God or Old Gods anything is an impossible figure of thought under such circumstances. Only decaying city civilisations with all their usual degenerative features harbour atheism, like Ancient Rome before the fall, Hellenism before it's fall and the West of present day. Especially under the expected repression, atheism would mean quick death. But even without repression: nobody would come to think atheistic. It simply is not within the psychology of such cultural setting.

Morrigan also disagrees. In any case, not only Western civilizations include atheistic belief systems; in fact, some non-Western nations like Japan and China arguably have more of it.

[Trolldrool]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Why? There's no evidence to prove the Maker exists. And the Chantry isn't the only religion in Thedas, as the religious debates between Anders and Merrill can attest to. Some scholars even believe that the Old Gods are simply ancient dragons, and Corpyheus' statement in Legacy lead to debates over the validity of the Chantry's claims about their fable of the Golden City. There's no reason for you to think that any atheist in Thedas is a fool because they don't believe in the Maker or a higher power.

There's no evidence to prove the Maker exists, and the Old Gods aren't deities.

I don't believe the Old Gods were deities in the onmiscient, omnipresent and omnipotent sense we in the real world have pretty much been forcefed to recognize as divine traits, but nor do I believe they are simply dragons. They were able to instruct the mages of Tevinter how to enter a city in the Fade that apparently neither dreamers, mages or even spirits are supposed to be able to reach. They also supposedly taught the practice of blood magic to humans and they were able to communicate with them despite being trapped deep beneath the surface.

Add to this that their mastery of the taint is such that as arch-demons if their physical form is destroyed, they can transfer their sentience and strength into any nearby darkspawn through the taint and emerge again in a new dragon form. Unless we assume that all dragons are able to do this if they live a couple of millenia, in which case there is nothing "simply" about ancient dragons, I'd say the dragons the Tevinter worshipped as gods were definitely sentient and exceptionally intelligent, possibly even more than humans.

I'm not saying this proves that there was anything divine to their nature, but I do believe they were special for dragonkind.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Cousland protagonist could say that he didn't believe in the Maker in the Human Noble Origin. The Surana protagonist could condemn the Chantry of Andraste for invading the Dales for religious reasons at Ostagar, and indicate that the Maker wasn't his god. The Warden could inform Leliana that he didn't view Andraste as someone with any divine power (after the events of the Urn of Sacred Ashes). The Warden-Commander could tell Justice that belief in the Maker is a "foolish superstition" (in the City of Amaranthine).

Of course, it'd be helpful if we could be told why we had these beliefs.

I don't think that is necessary. I would prefer for the developers to let the player fill in the gap as to why they hold certain views and beliefs. I imagine there are a plethora of reasons why someone would disbelief in the docturine of the Chantry of Andraste (especially if the person is an elf or a mage), which is why there were options to express disbelief in Origins and Awakening.

I'm also not sure why anyone thinks atheism is impossible in Thedas when The Warden could express an atheist point of view in the main game and the expansion. That's the entire reason there was backlash with Hawke being limited to only being able to express a religiously Andrastian point of view.

[sarnokh]

Xilizhra wrote...

sarnokh wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheists don't exist in Thedas according to Gaider.

XD

My Warden would disagree lol

In essence: atheism is in Thedas impossible per se. Similar as in the European Middle Ages. Not believing in God or Old Gods anything is an impossible figure of thought under such circumstances. Only decaying city civilisations with all their usual degenerative features harbour atheism, like Ancient Rome before the fall, Hellenism before it's fall and the West of present day. Especially under the expected repression, atheism would mean quick death. But even without repression: nobody would come to think atheistic. It simply is not within the psychology of such cultural setting.

Morrigan also disagrees. In any case, not only Western civilizations include atheistic belief systems; in fact, some non-Western nations like Japan and China arguably have more of it.

Morrigan and Flemeth are the one of a million exception. Sure. D&D has a Drizzt. But when everyone is Drizzt, the world stops to make sense.

[Xilizhra]

Morrigan and Flemeth are the one of a million exception. Sure. D&D has a Drizzt. But when everyone is Drizzt, the world stops to make sense.

And so the PC should be allowed to be, as PCs are exceptions by default.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

sarnokh wrote...

In essence: atheism is in Thedas impossible per se. Similar as in the European Middle Ages. Not believing in God or Old Gods anything is an impossible figure of thought under such circumstances. Only decaying city civilisations with all their usual degenerative features harbour atheism, like Ancient Rome before the fall, Hellenism before it's fall and the West of present day. Especially under the expected repression, atheism would mean quick death. But even without repression: nobody would come to think atheistic. It simply is not within the psychology of such cultural setting. 

Morrigan also disagrees. In any case, not only Western civilizations include atheistic belief systems; in fact, some non-Western nations like Japan and China arguably have more of it. 

True. Morrigan was able to express it as a point of view, and Leliana seemed to grasp the concept when Morrigan espoused it, so I don't see why anyone thinks atheism is impossible. This isn't the Elder Scrolls where gods are real beyond a shadow of a doubt, and often interact in the lives of the mortals of Mundus. Per the conversation between Leliana and Morrigan:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.

Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.

Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

Their later conversation has Leliana express that she seems to understand the concept of atheism:

Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?

Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.

Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.

Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.

Leliana: It must be so sad to look forward to nothing, to feel no love and seek no reward in the afterlife.

Morrigan: Yes, the anguish tears at me so. You have seen through me to my sad, sad core.

Leliana: Now you're simply mocking me.

Morrigan: You notice? It appears your perceptive powers know no bounds.

This conversation was one of the reasons my atheist Surana Warden didn't pursue a romance with Leliana, since he already acknowledged in dialogue that he despised the Chantry and didn't follow the Maker. Also, I find it a little absurd that some people act like atheism can't exist in Thedas when our own histori disproves such a notion, and there's already a precedent for this line of thinking in Origins and Awakening, so the point is really moot. 

Also, it's not hard to imagine that a mage wouldn't believe in the Chantry, given what the organization preaches about mages to the entire continent of Thedas.

[sarnokh]

Xilizhra wrote...

Morrigan and Flemeth are the one of a million exception. Sure. D&D has a Drizzt. But when everyone is Drizzt, the world stops to make sense.

And so the PC should be allowed to be, as PCs are exceptions by default.

I am not speaking about allowance. Sure, all should be allowed. I am speaking of what makes sense. If I create a character in Thedas, and I project my modern city-folks identity into a medevial, rural, theist society, sorry I am playing it wrong. Sure, be free to play it that way, by all means. I can play Mass Effect with the mentality of a rural farmer from 1220 AD, but it would make no SENSE.

I can doubt the Chantry. I can think, maybe the Maker is not what the say. I can go back to the Old Gods, saying, maybe the Ancestors were more right. But atheism... I simply don't see that. And even Morrigan probably accepts the Old Gods, she just does not see them as a Monotheist sees his One God, since Pagan usually see their deities less exalted. Atheism is just an extreme I simply do not see it makes sense.


I was DM of the German P&P game "The Dark Eye" for 25 years, and we had discussions a few times about atheist characters, and I always said: no. It makes no sense when the work of Gods is evident and not, as in our world, a matter of belief. That is the difference. Magic, higher realms, Demons, Spirits - they are not speculative in Thedas, they are real. So to step to a point where a Thedasian would say "I believe there is no deity at all" is just too far away from what I as DM would allow. But hey, of course that's just me, and the world doesn't run like I command.

AND YOU SHOULD ALL BE GRATEFUL FOR IT! ... ^^


@LobselVith8 Sorry, the dialogue just proves bad writing. Sorry, that I am adamant in this, but to me as Dungeon Master, as fantasy writer and reader, atheism makes no sense in a setting as this. It imports our world's view into a fantasy world, and that is just bad writing and wrong thinking. It defies all we know about human nature to expect people would be atheists in a setting as Thedas or any similar fantasy world. No matter how many dialogues you quote, I just see that as inconsistent writing.

Modifié par sarnokh, 02 avril 2013 - 07:53 .

[LobselVith8]

sarnokh wrote...

@LobselVith8 Sorry, the dialogue just proves bad writing. Sorry, that I am adamant in this, but to me as Dungeon Master, as fantasy writer and reader, atheism makes no sense in a setting as this. It imports our world's view into a fantasy world, and that is just bad writing and wrong thinking. It defies all we know about human nature to expect people would be atheists in a setting as Thedas or any similar fantasy world. No matter how many dialogues you quote, I just see that as inconsistent writing. 

Atheism is centuries old. Our own history proves it makes sense in this setting. I don't know why you think it's a modern concept. As for Thedas, it can make sense. You think an elf couldn't doubt the teachings of a religion that destroyed the homeland of his people? You think a mage can't doubt the teachings of a religion that vilifies and persecuted his people? It's not inconsistent in the least.

[Fortlowe]

Aren't the Qunari atheists? My understanding is that they do not worship any deity so much as they believe in their way of life being the right one.

[azarhal]

Fortlowe wrote...

Aren't the Qunari atheists? My understanding is that they do not worship any deity so much as they believe in their way of life being the right one.

So far we have no indication that they have any gods, but it doesn't mean they have none. So, I guess that until we learn of any Kossith gods, they are atheists. Keep in mind that there might be some Rivain Qunari who also believe the Maker exist(ed), but don't practice the teaching of the Chantry. We don't have any indication that the Qun forbid believing that gods exist (unless I missed some Leliana/Sten conversation on the matter).

Modifié par azarhal, 02 avril 2013 - 10:16 .

[Kidd]

sarnokh wrote...

I was DM of the German P&P game "The Dark Eye" for 25 years, and we had discussions a few times about atheist characters, and I always said: no. It makes no sense when the work of Gods is evident and not, as in our world, a matter of belief. That is the difference. Magic, higher realms, Demons, Spirits - they are not speculative in Thedas, they are real.

Had Thedas been Faerûn I would've been on your side completely. To not believe in gods in D&D is to be far more ignorant than any priest who ever claimed the Earth was flat. But there is nothing that proves higher existence in Thedas at all, spirits and demons are merely another kind of creature that exists in an element unknown to most (much like fish in the deep sea, really).

[Ferretinabun]

sarnokh -

That seems remarkably extreme, to completely forbid a particular attitude or opinion. Surely a character should be able to hold any opinion or worldview the player wishes? As DM, you can certainly make certain attitudes taboo, heretical or persecuted, but to actually make them off-limits to players is very dictatorial.

"Rules are good! Rules help CONTROL the fun!" - Monica, Friends