445 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Arrogance or delusion?

I'm hoping it's the latter but Wolfie's probably the former.

Arrogance is an excellent incubator for delusion.

I would say it's a combination of both.

Fair enough.

Saren Arterius: Is submission not preferable to extinction? 


 endings by definition...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 27 mars 2013 - 08:31 .

[Redbelle]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

No way really to know in what ways Synthesis has limited all life (and all non-living intelligence) in the galaxy. Actually, by causing all that exists to respond in a more fundamentally similar way to stimuli, Synthesis may doom all life.

Take, for example, the Potato Famine. The problem of a blight to which a particular breed of potato is especially vulnerable became a problem because that breed of potato was being extensively cultivated in monoculture in Ireland. That the potato crop had become blighted was a problem because it was a necessary component in the diet of the poor sharecropping farmer; if they were relying on more of a mixture of crops they could have coped better.

In essence, Synthesis is hard-coding fragility into the galaxy. Diversity in responses, whether genetic, trained, or due to individual quirks in temperament is a desirable trait. Rendering all intelligent life into a single hybrid actually weakens the galaxy rather than strengthening it.

Indeed. Because all life has one commonality a disease that target's that comman factor mean's that all life will be at risk. After a period of time where bacteria and virus's adapt to their new structure, they will be well placed to infect all life in the galaxy on account that all life now specialises in common DNA. Dextro's like Turian's and Quarian's will become susceptable to human diseases and vice versa as viruses adapt. And machine's will not be able to be sent in as they too are now susceptable, if we take Synth to mean that every organic and synthetic has the same living/synthetic tissues. In different ratio's perhap's since Generation 1 Org's and Synth's still look meaty and metal. But after a couple of generation's of breeding, who know's what we'll end with?

[KENNY4753]

destroy =|= mercy killing...destroy =|= genocide

/thread

[o Ventus]

Auintus wrote...
I don't judge people on their choice, I judge them on their, typically poor, reasons for making that choice. Auld Wulf seems a little...shall we say passionate? I think that's a nice word for it. But he is right...to a point. Many people completely disregard the fact that when the cards are down, the Reapers are uninterested in our demise. Teh Wulf takes it further than necessary, but his overall point is accurate.
However, I have met destroyers who's reasons for that choice make perfect sense, give that we have different priorities. It is those who blatantly ignore information that aggrevate me.

Well according to Seovereign, we exist because they allow it, and we will die because thy demand it.

Then there's Harbinger, who tells us that the Reapers are our salvation through destruction.

So no, they are not "uninterested in our demise".

Modifié par o Ventus, 27 mars 2013 - 10:48 .

[Auintus]

Alienboy411676 wrote...

Auintus wrote...


Except Destroy imposes death. I erradicates the chance of any of the geth or EDI ever being able to do anything, ever.

I believe I said that.   

I also said that it imposes death on fewest individuals, and that it is because it imposes death that I admittedly sometimes pick Control over Destroy.

So the width of the forced choice surpasses its depth? To clarify: The number of individuals affected by a decision is more important than the degree to which those individuals are affected?

Synthesis violates the free will of every living thing in the galaxy.  And while it may not "limit" anyone as you say, I have explained why and how it would likely be destructive to non-space-faring civilizations - thus imposing DEATH.  

As I have explained in previous posts, a non-space-faring civilization (i.e. humanity as it is now, any race without the ability to travel to other planets, any race that has no idea aliens even exist) would be forced to cope with Synthesis.  They would have no knowledge of what happened to them.  They have no idea how or why it happened, or even what it was.  This would likely result in fear and chaos among their society, and would thus lead to the death of many individuals - thousands, if not millions, when you multiply it by the number of non-space-faring civilizations out there.  

Therefore, yes, synthesis also imposes death.

I think you overestimate the degree of panic that would be experienced. Those hit by the wave don't even flinch.
I don't see how you think that it would result in that degree of chaos.

[Auintus]

o Ventus wrote...

Well according to Seovereign, we exist because they allow it, and we will die because thy demand it.

Then there's Harbinger, who tells us that the Reapers are our salvation through destruction.

So no, they are not "uninterested in our demise".

You are one of them. Remember the "You may be in conflict with the Reapers, but they are not interested in war." The Reapers don't give two bags of chocobo droppings if we live or die. Our deaths are just the unfortunate side effect of the harvest, a system designed to preserve our essence,  not our life.
So, yes, they are uninterested in our demise. That just happens to be the only way they know to go about their mission. Synthesis gives them a new method, Control gives them a new mission, Destroy removes the Reapers entirely. Either way, problem solved.

[Redbelle]

would u like to be synthsised? Right now? If it were possible would u want someone you've never met making that decision for you?

This perhaps needs to be put into context. The situation is that your free will is about to be ignored as to your preference on who and what you are. The wave is a nice idea but it still boils down to an unsanctioned invasion of the body.

Dealing with synth from the everyman perspective is not about deciding to let it happen. You have no choice, regardless of your desire. All that's left is to come to terms with what has happened.

*edit*

JC Denton never had this problem with Synth because his Synthesis only took place in his own person. He was told about it, the consequences and he/the player, took the choice to accept or reject this action.

Shepard's synthesis is different. He doens't have to live with the consequences of his action. Everyone else does. It's no longer a matter of personal choice, it's choosing for all without their approval or disapproval. (ok big Reaper war, but put that aside and you see that Synth, compared to Deus Ex's synth ending, has far more human rights violation's attached to the consequence's of choosing that option).

Modifié par Redbelle, 27 mars 2013 - 11:46 .

[o Ventus]

One cannot be uninterested in something yet knowingly, willingly, actively carry out the thing they are uninterested in in a cyclical fashion. Those are direct contradictions. By performing the act you are displaying interest, because it bothers you enough to do it.

Then again, the Catalyst contradicts a lot of what Harbinger and Sovereign established, so it doesn't surprise me.

[Auintus]

Redbelle wrote...

would u like to be synthsised? Right now? If it were possible would u want someone you've never met making that decision for you?

This perhaps needs to be put into context. The situation is that your free will is about to be ignored as to your preference on who and what you are. The wave is a nice idea but it still boils down to an unsanctioned invasion of the body.

Dealing with synth from the everyman perspective is not about deciding to let it happen. You have no choice, regardless of your desire. All that's left is to come to terms with what has happened.

Yes, yes I would. That would make my freaking day.

Right. I don't get to say "You know what? I'd prefer you sacrifice an entire race of sentient beings so that I don't have to be improved against my will." It makes one decision for everyone. One time, you get no say in what happens to you. Then you can do whatever you like. In Destroy, the geth are eradicated. Considering that Legion is willing to attack Shepard in order to save the geth, I doubt they'd be keen on sacrificing themselves. Following the Destroy wave, they are robbed not only of the choice as to whether or not they willingly sacrifice themselves, but of every future decision they may or may not have made.

****, don't edit stuff that I've already quoted.<_<
I kid.  I would prefer that the decision be individual, but given our choices, I still think Synthesis is the best.

Modifié par Auintus, 27 mars 2013 - 11:51 .

[Megaton_Hope]

I see transhumanism as a possible but strictly voluntary decision. Many people would be horrified to experience such a transformation.

[Auintus]

o Ventus wrote...

One cannot be uninterested in something yet knowingly, willingly, actively carry out the thing they are uninterested in in a cyclical fashion. Those are direct contradictions. By performing the act you are displaying interest, because it bothers you enough to do it.

Then again, the Catalyst contradicts a lot of what Harbinger and Sovereign established, so it doesn't surprise me.

Sure they can. A surgeon may not be particularly interested in cutting you open, but they have to do it to reach your spleen, or whatever. It is a means to an end, not the primary objective.

[KENNY4753]

@Auintus the Geth were willing to die if it meant destroying the Reapers. Every race is. Otherwise they wouldnt have joined us in the first place.

[o Ventus]

Auintus wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

One cannot be uninterested in something yet knowingly, willingly, actively carry out the thing they are uninterested in in a cyclical fashion. Those are direct contradictions. By performing the act you are displaying interest, because it bothers you enough to do it.

Then again, the Catalyst contradicts a lot of what Harbinger and Sovereign established, so it doesn't surprise me.

Sure they can. A surgeon may not be particularly interested in cutting you open, but they have to do it to reach your spleen, or whatever. It is a means to an end, not the primary objective.

If the doctor is a surgeon, then they do show an interest in cutting you open. That's what a surgeon does. That's literally their job.

The act not being the primary objective is irrelevant. Again, if they do it in a cyclical fashion willingly, know logout, and actively, then they at least show a tangential or proxy interest in the act. To say they don't is incorrect. Especially so in this case, because 2 significant Reapers show a particular interest in our demise.

[Auld Wulf]

o Ventus wrote...

Especially so in this case, because 2 significant Reapers show a particular interest in our demise.

Do we have evidence that any Reaper has "shown interest" rather than being forced to take interest via control? In other words, to "show interest" one must choose to "show interest" of their own free will. There is evidence that the REapers are enslaved, but where is the evidence that a Reaper can act with enough free will to have their own interests?

[o Ventus]

Auld Wulf wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Especially so in this case, because 2 significant Reapers show a particular interest in our demise.

Do we have evidence that any Reaper has "shown interest" rather than being forced to take interest via control? In other words, to "show interest" one must choose to "show interest" of their own free will. There is evidence that the REapers are enslaved, but where is the evidence that a Reaper can act with enough free will to have their own interests?

Well, there's the fact that Sovereign and Harbinger has names and act with autonomy in ME1 and 2.

[Auld Wulf]

KENNY4753 wrote...

@Auintus the Geth were willing to die given no other alternative if it meant destroying the Reapers. Every race is. Otherwise they wouldnt have joined us in the first place.

I'm pretty sure if one geth remained and you told them that you could have saved them, but you chose to ruthlessly slaughter them all, they'd be fairly ticked off.

[Drewton]

Auld Wulf wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Especially so in this case, because 2 significant Reapers show a particular interest in our demise.

Do we have evidence that any Reaper has "shown interest" rather than being forced to take interest via control? In other words, to "show interest" one must choose to "show interest" of their own free will. There is evidence that the REapers are enslaved, but where is the evidence that a Reaper can act with enough free will to have their own interests?

"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independent. Free of all weakness. You can not even grasp the nature of our existence."

- Sovereign

Modifié par Drewton, 28 mars 2013 - 12:31 .

[Auld Wulf]

o Ventus wrote...

Well, there's the fact that Sovereign and Harbinger has names and act with autonomy in ME1 and 2.

It seems as though they're acting within the Leviathans intentions for preservation to me. The goal of Sovereign seems like a poorly thought out version of Synthesis. It seemed like they had a tiny bit of wiggle room, but free will? I still see no evidence of it.

[jtav]

I hate the mercy kill argument. Hate it. You don't get to say for any variety of life that there's no way the person/entity would want to keep living. There are those who would consider my life not worth living, but that's not their call, and it's not my call with a Reaper. There are reasons to choose Destroy, but don't pretend you're doing Reapers a favor.

[Auld Wulf]

Drewton wrote...

"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independent. Free of all weakness. You can not even grasp the nature of our existence."

- Sovereign

Because a mind controlled person totally needs to be aware that they're being mind controlled?

C'mon, this is basic stuff.

[Drewton]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Drewton wrote...

"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independent. Free of all weakness. You can not even grasp the nature of our existence."

- Sovereign

Because a mind controlled person totally needs to be aware that they're being mind controlled?

C'mon, this is basic stuff.

And you believe everything the Reaper collective tells you?

C'mon, this is basic stuff.

Modifié par Drewton, 28 mars 2013 - 12:33 .

[Applepie_Svk]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Drewton wrote...

"My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independent. Free of all weakness. You can not even grasp the nature of our existence."

- Sovereign

Because a mind controlled person totally needs to be aware that they're being mind controlled?

C'mon, this is basic stuff.

Synthesis... your turn... 

[Aaleel]

Auld Wulf wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Well, there's the fact that Sovereign and Harbinger has names and act with autonomy in ME1 and 2.

It seems as though they're acting within the Leviathans intentions for preservation to me. The goal of Sovereign seems like a poorly thought out version of Synthesis. It seemed like they had a tiny bit of wiggle room, but free will? I still see no evidence of it.

There's no evidence that Reapers are nothing but puppets on marionette strings either.  I've heard multiple reapers refer to themselves as I.  The one on Rannoch says I know you, Harbinger speaks of you often, as if they talk among themselves.   Soveriegn says they are all independent, you touch my mind, I am Sovereign.

I've seen nothing to suggest that something is controlling their every movement, and that they're just not independent soldiers willingly following an order.

Modifié par Aaleel, 28 mars 2013 - 12:44 .

[Drewton]

Starkid talks about the Reapers like they're less independent than the geth. They definitely don't seem that way.

[Applepie_Svk]

Aaleel wrote...



There's no evidence that Reapers are nothing but puppets on marionette strings either.  I've heard multiple reapers refer to themselves as I.  The one on Rannoch says I know you, Harbinger speaks of you often...

I wouldn´t be suprised if Harbinger-Catalyst-intelligence were one and the same entity, Harbinger in ME2 was reffered as another reaper, in ME3 it was again Harbinger who lead the harvest on Earth, and again in Leviathan he was mentioned as a first true Reaper. Even Rannoch Destroyer was reffering a Harbinger with significance which pointing that Reapers have probably chain of command in their society, which is far beyound the mindless mob of harvesters.