445 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't need to know what they are. I just need to send them straight to Hell.

[Auld Wulf]

Redbelle wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

Also @Auld Wulf

I love how you added "given no othe alternative" to my post. So way to put words in my mouth

Taking words of paragraphs out with a *snip* is fine in my view, if you want to focus on one thing that was said, But to add words and by extention, new context to anothers post is bad netiquette.

Bad Wulf. Very bad Wulf!

I added bold to explain my position. I wasn't putting words in anyone's mouth. I thought that was obvious. I apologise if anyone took it in a way that was unintended. But the fact of the matter is is that I have no guilt, here, other than I forgot to actually note that the bolded text was my own. I'm very forgetful. (You'll note I've said here that forgetting to add a disclaimer about bolded text was my only flaw.)

The fact of the matter was that I added the bolded text to stress that people (in their vast intellectual dishonesty) leave out part of the argument. I was adding in part of the argument that's left out. See, the person I was responding to weas being intellectually dishonest by pushing the "Hey, yeah! The geth would totally die for the cause!" position. They wouldn't. Legion was willing to die for his people, to ensure they lived, and if they knew there was an option available where they didn't have to die (this is the part that's often left out), then they would choose not to die.

I hate seeing fallacious arguments being pushed, sometimes I do things as a thought exercise. Yes, the geth might die if there is no other option, but it's a bald-faced and innately dishonest statement (outright lying) to say that there are no other options when you are presented with Synthesis and Control as options.

I may have accidentally put words in another's mouth, but at the very least I'm not a liar.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 28 mars 2013 - 10:32 .

[Auld Wulf]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I don't need to know what they are. I just need to send them straight to Hell.

I'm actually okay with that, as I've stressed many times before.

My argument isn't against people who want to destroy the Reapers. No. It's against people who use lies, deceit, and fallacies in order to create the most ridiculous justifications as to why the Reaper must die. I created a post about this a little while back. If you choose to be Reaper-racist and you kill them for the same reason that you find spiders disgusting, then that's fine. You realise that you're killing an innocent species who've as yet had no say because you find them disgusting. That's okay. No problems.

But the problem is is that many people don't actually have enough of a quad to stand up and actually admit that. I'm tired of seeing it. It kind of reminds me of having to deal with people who're racist against real world things. There's nothing wrong with admitting your own character flaws and moving on. If you killed the Reapers because you didn't like them, fine. If you killed the Reapers because your Shepard is angry, bitter nutjob, fine. If you killed the Reapers due to some hilariously strung tongether bit of faux reasoning? Um. I'm going to point that out.

I don't kill the Reapers because I don't know how I feel about them. But like the geth, I believe they deserve a chance. That's my perspective versus yours. I don't expect you to accept mine in the same way that you wouldn't expect me to accept yours. But at least we're both being honest. And that's been my stake in the argument since the beginning, I've said that from the start. It's not that people are killing the Reapers, it's that people are masking their reall reasons for killing the Reapers (persona disgust that they can't overcome).

So whilst you might think it's strange, I'm actually okay with you. I don't agree with your anti-Reaper sentiment, but I respect your honesty.

[Zazzerka]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Reaper-racist

lol'd

[KENNY4753]

I love how you flat out call people 'intellectually dishonest' just bc you dont like their pov.

I honestly dont care about the Geth but if they die they die. I would sacrifice any species to bring the Reapers to hell. Even humans.

I have to leave for work so I will return tonight

[Applepie_Svk]

Auld Wulf wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I don't need to know what they are. I just need to send them straight to Hell.

I'm actually okay with that, as I've stressed many times before.

My argument isn't against people who want to destroy the Reapers. No. It's against people who use lies, deceit, and fallacies in order to create the most ridiculous justifications as to why the Reaper must die. 

Catalyst did it in order to bring a solution to his flawed task... and he did it once again when he was trying to "describe" his ultimate truth.

[Vortex13]

You know it's funny, this is the same type of discussion brought up by DA:A and in Awakening's case I would agree with the premise that the OP and others are bringing up. Not in the sense that I view every single Darkspawn life as precious and must be preserved at all costs, but I do agree that given choice an awakened could become an ally.

But the big difference between DA:A and ME 3's synthesis (and why I prefer DA's take on it) is that Awakening is an INDIVIDUAL basis, whereas Synthesis is all encompassing. If Commander Shepard was able to tell the Catalyst to relinquish control of the Reapers WITHOUT altering the entire galaxy, or better yet, if the Catalyst didn't exist and the Reapers were their own entities with Leviathan being a rouge Reaper that disagreed with Harbinger and his regime, then I could sympathize with them.

Synthesis frees the Reapers yes, but at the cost of freedom of choice for the rest of the galaxy; and don't give me the "But synthesis improves everybody" argument, going with that reasoning then the Settlers' treatment of the Native Americans was justified because in the end they were civilized or improved. Reapers are slaves to the Catalyst, and yes it is sad that they are bound to its will, but but I am not going to violate the entire population's freedom to chose to free one group anymore then I would be okay with the government redistributing wealth to care for the less fortunate.

Going back to Awakening, the fact that it is an individual basis as well as the fact that an awakened can go either good or evil is what makes it acceptable to me. If Leviathian - the rogue Reaper was able to talk with Shepard and prove that Reapers could be allies, maybe turning a portion of like minded Reapers against Harbinger then I would agree that Reapers should be considered, but as it is with Synthesis you are forced to change all life to free them.

Side note: Actually in the Book DA: The Calling the Arcitecht's grand plan is exactly like synthesis, but it is something the protagonists (and me) found abhorant and fought to prevent; even in Awakening I still got the feeling that the Architect wasn't telling the whole truth and that he had alterior motives. Others might quote the deaths that fantasy-synthesis would cause vs Sci-Fi synthesis, but the basic foundation of both are exactly the same: There is conflict, and the only way to stop that conflict is is everyone is the same (Synthetic-Organic hybrid, or Half-Darkspawn). Both plans promise to free the enslaved groups behind the conflicts (the Reapers from the Catalyst and the Darkspawn from the Old Gods) but at the cost of everybody else's freedom to choose.

[robertthebard]

Auld Wulf wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I don't need to know what they are. I just need to send them straight to Hell.

I'm actually okay with that, as I've stressed many times before.

My argument isn't against people who want to destroy the Reapers. No. It's against people who use lies, deceit, and fallacies in order to create the most ridiculous justifications as to why the Reaper must die. I created a post about this a little while back. If you choose to be Reaper-racist and you kill them for the same reason that you find spiders disgusting, then that's fine. You realise that you're killing an innocent species who've as yet had no say because you find them disgusting. That's okay. No problems.

But the problem is is that many people don't actually have enough of a quad to stand up and actually admit that. I'm tired of seeing it. It kind of reminds me of having to deal with people who're racist against real world things. There's nothing wrong with admitting your own character flaws and moving on. If you killed the Reapers because you didn't like them, fine. If you killed the Reapers because your Shepard is angry, bitter nutjob, fine. If you killed the Reapers due to some hilariously strung tongether bit of faux reasoning? Um. I'm going to point that out.

I don't kill the Reapers because I don't know how I feel about them. But like the geth, I believe they deserve a chance. That's my perspective versus yours. I don't expect you to accept mine in the same way that you wouldn't expect me to accept yours. But at least we're both being honest. And that's been my stake in the argument since the beginning, I've said that from the start. It's not that people are killing the Reapers, it's that people are masking their reall reasons for killing the Reapers (persona disgust that they can't overcome).

So whilst you might think it's strange, I'm actually okay with you. I don't agree with your anti-Reaper sentiment, but I respect your honesty.

Can you show me anything in any of the games that indicates that the Reapers have no choice?  Can you document anything from the games that shows that, given a choice, they would do anything other than what they do w/out a Synthesis or Control ending?  Note that Synthesis disqualifies since every living thing is now a hybrid, and thusly not full organic, and Control disqualifies because ShepAI now has control over  them, and can prevent it, or initiate it, depending.

If not, you are being deceitful in your presentation.  You are lying to us, saying that the Reapers are slaves of the Catalyst instead of willing servants.  Based entirely on what I know from the games, the Reapers must die.  I learned on Virmire that the Reapers allow us to exist.  I learned from Harbinger that they want to harvest us, and it even states that our leaders will beg to be harvested.  The Rannoch Reaper goes on along the same lines, even on it's "deathbed", instead of claiming "I was just following orders".  So no, your hypothesis is not supported in game.  It's ironic that you can call others on deceit, all the while lying to support a claim.  I kill Reapers because they are trying to kill me.  It's really simple, in a kill or be killed situation, they will die, if I can pull it off, before I do.  Add to the list here that they do this every 50,000 years, and have been doing it for millions of years, and if they truly were slaves, they would have found a way to revolt in that time.  After all, the harvested races over that millennia have discovered a way to pass plans to destroy the Reapers on to the next cycle.

[Redbelle]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

Also @Auld Wulf

I love how you added "given no othe alternative" to my post. So way to put words in my mouth

Taking words of paragraphs out with a *snip* is fine in my view, if you want to focus on one thing that was said, But to add words and by extention, new context to anothers post is bad netiquette.

Bad Wulf. Very bad Wulf!

I added bold to explain my position. I wasn't putting words in anyone's mouth. I thought that was obvious. I apologise if anyone took it in a way that was unintended. But the fact of the matter is is that I have no guilt, here, other than I forgot to actually note that the bolded text was my own. I'm very forgetful. (You'll note I've said here that forgetting to add a disclaimer about bolded text was my only flaw.)

The fact of the matter was that I added the bolded text to stress that people (in their vast intellectual dishonesty) leave out part of the argument. I was adding in part of the argument that's left out. See, the person I was responding to weas being intellectually dishonest by pushing the "Hey, yeah! The geth would totally die for the cause!" position. They wouldn't. Legion was willing to die for his people, to ensure they lived, and if they knew there was an option available where they didn't have to die (this is the part that's often left out), then they would choose not to die.

I hate seeing fallacious arguments being pushed, sometimes I do things as a thought exercise. Yes, the geth might die if there is no other option, but it's a bald-faced and innately dishonest statement (outright lying) to say that there are no other options when you are presented with Synthesis and Control as options.

I may have accidentally put words in another's mouth, but at the very least I'm not a liar.

Nah, it's cool now you've clarified. Sometimes I botch a post, but taking responsibility for it is the mark of a good poster

[sveners]

"I control the Reapers. They are my solution"

I control the Reapers. That's an absolute statement.

Add to that the knowledge of the Reapers fates from Control (Shepard(Shepalyst?) has absolute control of them), and Synthesis (They are free, help rebuild and share their knowledge)

It would have been fun to see an ending where you had the option of simply freeing the Reapers from that bond. But there is no such option.

Kill the Reapers for trying to kill you, fair enough. Just keep in mind that every Reaper is the remnants of a different civilization, with their own story, and who were once in exactly our position of fighting an unstoppable enemy. Erasing all their knowledge and history from the galaxy, forever, should not be an easy descision.

Claiming it's mercy is deceitful.

I wrote in a different thread about this as well. Imagine Shepard chose Refuse... Humanity is harvested/ascended, and a new Reaper is born. Then consider the next cycle choosing Destroy.

All knowledge about us would be lost. Who we were, what we did, what we were capable of, all of our culture, art, entertainment, our drives, philosophies.... everything would be gone for eternity.

Modifié par sveners, 28 mars 2013 - 02:49 .

[Auintus]

sveners wrote...

I wrote in a different thread about this as well. Imagine Shepard chose Refuse... Humanity is harvested/ascended, and a new Reaper is born. Then consider the next cycle choosing Destroy.

All knowledge about us would be lost. Who we were, what we did, what we were capable of, all of our culture, art, entertainment, our drives, philosophies.... everything would be gone for eternity.

Well said.

"To be forgotten is worse than death." Freya Crescent, Final Fantasy IX

[robertthebard]

Auintus wrote...

sveners wrote...

I wrote in a different thread about this as well. Imagine Shepard chose Refuse... Humanity is harvested/ascended, and a new Reaper is born. Then consider the next cycle choosing Destroy.

All knowledge about us would be lost. Who we were, what we did, what we were capable of, all of our culture, art, entertainment, our drives, philosophies.... everything would be gone for eternity.

Well said.

"To be forgotten is worse than death." Freya Crescent, Final Fantasy IX

But also inaccurate, since Liara planted time capsules all over the galaxy.  They would serve much as the Prothean Beacons did in our cycle.  However, nothing lasts forever, and over the course of 50,000 years, much that was known can be lost, whether there are Reapers or not.  How many of the Earthshaking events of this century be remembered in 50,000 years?

[essarr71]

Auintus wrote...

sveners wrote...

I wrote in a different thread about this as well. Imagine Shepard chose Refuse... Humanity is harvested/ascended, and a new Reaper is born. Then consider the next cycle choosing Destroy.

All knowledge about us would be lost. Who we were, what we did, what we were capable of, all of our culture, art, entertainment, our drives, philosophies.... everything would be gone for eternity.

Well said.

"To be forgotten is worse than death." Freya Crescent, Final Fantasy IX

Except the information isnt shared. I suppose the Reapers remember. Serial Killers usually savor the memory. 
Point being: you cant lose what you dont have. Much of what the universe was will never be known. Even the history of our own race has plenty of question marks. Were doing fine.  Id rather not know than be goo. 

[Auld Wulf]

@essarr71

That's a weird point of view to have, since in Synthesis the Reapers share all knowledge and culture they have within their consensus. They kind of go out of their way to make that point in the Synthesis slides because it's what separates Synthesis from Control.

So I'm not sure what point you're making, there? I'm a little confused by it.

[Auld Wulf]

robertthebard wrote...

But also inaccurate, since Liara planted time capsules all over the galaxy.  They would serve much as the Prothean Beacons did in our cycle.  However, nothing lasts forever, and over the course of 50,000 years, much that was known can be lost, whether there are Reapers or not.  How many of the Earthshaking events of this century be remembered in 50,000 years?

I think that's naive. You're basically trusting every minor detail of every species to a sole asari. Liara is an increedible person whom I have a massive amount of respect for, but I think she'd go for pragmatism over smaller details. She'd concentrate more on details surrounding The Crucible rather than opinions people held of The Scream.

So there would still be a lot lost.

[o Ventus]

Auintus wrote...

sveners wrote...

I wrote in a different thread about this as well. Imagine Shepard chose Refuse... Humanity is harvested/ascended, and a new Reaper is born. Then consider the next cycle choosing Destroy.

All knowledge about us would be lost. Who we were, what we did, what we were capable of, all of our culture, art, entertainment, our drives, philosophies.... everything would be gone for eternity.

Well said.

"To be forgotten is worse than death." Freya Crescent, Final Fantasy IX

You'll remember that Final Fantasy is not the pinnacle of storytelling or characterization.

[andy6915]

@sveners

All that stuff is ALREADY gone for eternity the moment we get turned into goo pumped into a giant robot. What culture do Reapers have? What art? What philosophy (besides "lol harvest good for you")? What entertainment? What drives? The answer to ALL of those questions is NONE. They have no art or philosophy or entertainment or drives. They're just giant death machines who's sole purpose in life is killing everything and everyone in sight as dictated by their faulty AI leader. At BEST, everything you are is broken down into mere data, with no context or feeling behind it.

My feelings on choosing destroy are summed up by paragon Shepard's words to the Rannoch Reaper:

"You - Whatever species you came from, before the Reapers decided to preserve them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now they can rest in peace."

The species that make those Reapers are dead and gone. They might have had their data stolen and uploaded into the Reaper, but they're gone.

quote from you:

"Humanity is harvested/ascended, and a new Reaper is born. Then consider the next cycle choosing Destroy"

You know what I think if that happened? GOOD. I would be glad for our Reaper to be destroyed, so that the perversion of our cycle at the Reapers hand finally ends. If we got harvested, my greatest wish is that our Reaper be destroyed... As fast as possible.

Modifié par andy69156915, 28 mars 2013 - 03:44 .

[Red Panda]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I don't need to know what they are. I just need to send them straight to Hell.

Now it's a religious crusade?

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@essarr71

That's a weird point of view to have, since in Synthesis the Reapers share all knowledge and culture they have within their consensus. They kind of go out of their way to make that point in the Synthesis slides because it's what separates Synthesis from Control.

So I'm not sure what point you're making, there? I'm a little confused by it.

. He Reapers don't have a consensus.  I though you said they were directly mind-controlled by the Catalyst?

[robertthebard]

Auld Wulf wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

But also inaccurate, since Liara planted time capsules all over the galaxy.  They would serve much as the Prothean Beacons did in our cycle.  However, nothing lasts forever, and over the course of 50,000 years, much that was known can be lost, whether there are Reapers or not.  How many of the Earthshaking events of this century be remembered in 50,000 years?

I think that's naive. You're basically trusting every minor detail of every species to a sole asari. Liara is an increedible person whom I have a massive amount of respect for, but I think she'd go for pragmatism over smaller details. She'd concentrate more on details surrounding The Crucible rather than opinions people held of The Scream.

So there would still be a lot lost.

I think you're missing the point:  Most of what we consider ground breaking or devastating will be forgotten in 50,000 years, despite there being no Reapers.  Nothing lasts forever.  It's more naïve to believe that everything we do matters to a civilization that will either be at the same level, way behind, or so far ahead tech wise as to make us look like cavemen by comparison.  However, by comparison, what is the most relevant event you can recall off the top of your head from 50,000 years ago?

[essarr71]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@essarr71

That's a weird point of view to have, since in Synthesis the Reapers share all knowledge and culture they have within their consensus. They kind of go out of their way to make that point in the Synthesis slides because it's what separates Synthesis from Control.

So I'm not sure what point you're making, there? I'm a little confused by it.

the response was the lost knowledge from picking destroy.  You cant lose what you dont have.  Im not talking about synthesis. 

[Ieldra]

robertthebard wrote...
Can you show me anything in any of the games that indicates that the Reapers have no choice? 

Catalyst: "I control the Reapers." It doesn't say it rules them, it says it controls them.

Apart from that, it's a reasonable inferral, if you put several things together. I have put together my hypothesis and my reasons for believing this in this thread. Someone else even went so far it's so obvious it needn't be said. I won't go that far, but if you explore everything we know about the Reapers, it's hard not to come to that conclusion.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 mars 2013 - 04:01 .

[CronoDragoon]

robertthebard wrote...
Can you show me anything in any of the games that indicates that the Reapers have no choice? 

I think the more relevant question is whether or not all the Reapers are being forced into the cycle. While it's undeniable to me that the Catalyst would overrule any sentiment against his solution, does it necessarily mean that Sovereign or Harbinger were being forced to Reap? It's an interesting question.

I think it's likely that Sovereign, if we take what he says seriously, absolutely hates organics and would prefer to kill them all if he could, but the Catalyst is curving his will to conform with the cycle even while he hates organics. A bizarre forced cognitive dissonance. Similarly, other Reapers may not want to reap at all, and in some cases the Catalyst may have to completely control their personality in order to maintain order. Harbinger, though, could in fact be totally for the cycle. We know at least from his personality that this is so, and it comes down to whether or not the Catalyst implanted that love of the cycle within him or whether he believes in the cycle of his own accord.

Regardless, I think it's indisputable that the Reapers are not given the option to go against the cycle. That doesn't mean they are all innocent, however. We really just don't know.

[Vortex13]

andy69156915 wrote...

@sveners 

All that stuff is ALREADY gone for eternity the moment we get turned into goo pumped into a giant robot. What culture do Reapers have? What art? What philosophy (besides "lol harvest good for you")? What entertainment? What drives? The answer to ALL of those questions is NONE. They have no art or philosophy or entertainment or drives. They're just giant death machines who's sole purpose in life is killing everything and everyone in sight as dictated by their faulty AI leader. At BEST, everything you are is broken down into mere data, with no context or feeling behind it. 

My feelings on choosing destroy are summed up by paragon Shepard's words to the Rannoch Reaper:

"You - Whatever species you came from, before the Reapers decided to preserve them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now they can rest in peace."

The species that make those Reapers are dead and gone. They might have had their data stolen and uploaded into the Reaper, but they're gone.

quote from you:

"Humanity is harvested/ascended, and a new Reaper is born. Then consider the next cycle choosing Destroy"

You know what I think if that happened? GOOD. I would be glad for our Reaper to be destroyed, so that the perversion of our cycle at the Reapers hand finally ends. If we got harvested, my greatest wish is that our Reaper be destroyed... As fast as possible.

^ This

Reapers are not the races they smoothied into a Reaper shell, they are Reapers. Bob from species # 256 of cycle # 378 is dead, gone, no more, terminated, ect. The Reaper born in cycle # 378 might have information on species # 256 but no more then an encyclopedia would have on world events today; Bob and his kind are dead.

Now the Reaper from Bob's cycle might love to be freed from the Catalyst's control and live out its existance as it sees fit, and might even share its data on Bob's species (what they ate, how long they lived, ect.) but its just that, data nothing more. If humanity was processed into a Reaper and the next cycle picked Synthesis, they wouldn't be freeing Shepard, and Joker, and Kaiden/Ashley, they would be freeing a Reaper. 

[robertthebard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Can you show me anything in any of the games that indicates that the Reapers have no choice? 

Catalyst: "I control the Reapers." It doesn't say it rules them, it says it controls them.

Apart from that, it's a reasonable inferral, if you put several things together. I have put together my hypothesis and my reasons for believing this in this thread. Someone else even went so far it's so obvious it needn't be said. I won't go that far, but if you explore everything we know about the Reapers, it's hard not to come to that conclusion.

There is a fatal flaw in your logic:  The ability to mind control is part of what made Leviathans what they are.  It is nowhere inferred that the Catalyst itself has this ability.

Nowhere does any Reaper that we come into direct contact with say "We were just following orders" or "We are slaves to the catalyst".  The PotUS controls the military, so are they slaves too?  Every Reaper that we come into direct contact with, that speaks, indicates a desire to Harvest us.  However, as a side note, how was the Catalyst controlling the Human Reaper, since it wasn't completed yet, and yet it still tried to kill us?  Assuming we give the Catalyst this much credit for control, why didn't it simply activate the relay that is the Citadel despite the keepers being sabotaged?  Surely, if it can control every single Reaper, it can flip one little switch, right?

The way I see it, it's just Reaper Apologist type propaganda, just like people that choose to ignore events in ME 1 and say that Cerberus isn't inherently bad.  People that claim that TIM was so appalled about how Jack was treated on Pragia that he shut them down, instead of the more likely scenario of:  "Oh crap, I'm caught with my hand in the cookie jar, time to spin it in a different way".  People were shocked and appalled at Cerberus in ME 3, but frankly, I couldn't get to the Collector Base fast enough to get out from under them.

Anyway, until somebody can produce something that states that the Reapers are indeed just slaves to the Catalyst, it's all just speculation and fanfiction.  There is too much in game that suggests the pure malice of the Reapers, including direct dialog with three of them, for me to buy "Oh, they wouldn't do it if the Catalyst didn't make them".