445 réponses à ce sujet

[sveners]

@andy69156915

I'm not sure what to say here. You are right, the Reapers have no culture, art, etc. The species they were ascended from did though.

At the time Shepard made that comment to the Reaper, it was right, it was what we knew at the time. Believe me, I'd love for nothing more than having the Reapers be evil to the core. Then I'd choose Destroy without hesitating. But we're TOLD, point blank, in the last 10 minutes of the story that they are merely tools, created by the Catalyst, And the damn Synthesis ending does show that they are not merely killing machines.

He also goes out of his way to deny that humanity is being killed. He says ascended into Reaper form.

I don't like preaching this. I don't like Synthesis. I just see no way to ignore what the writers are telling us, and showing us in the epilogues. I wish I could, more than that I wish BioWare had chosen an ending that did not polarize their fanbase.

@Robertthebard

True enough. I would imagine the history books/pads/implants/stone carvings, would be quite bloated after 50k years of recorded history. Doesn't mean that there wouldn't be some things worth preserving for our succesors, no matter their level. If only for historians or their equivalents, Can't recall anything notworthy happing 50k year ago though.



That aside... considering Walters and Hudsons inspirations.. like the Matrix.. Maybe the billion programs inside Nazara/Sovereign were people like us, "living" in ignorance while the Catalyst/Architect use them for his own ends.

Far fetched, yep. Idiotic perhaps, but hey speculation for everyone.

[robertthebard]

sveners wrote...

@andy69156915

I'm not sure what to say here. You are right, the Reapers have no culture, art, etc. The species they were ascended from did though.

At the time Shepard made that comment to the Reaper, it was right, it was what we knew at the time. Believe me, I'd love for nothing more than having the Reapers be evil to the core. Then I'd choose Destroy without hesitating. But we're TOLD, point blank, in the last 10 minutes of the story that they are merely tools, created by the Catalyst, And the damn Synthesis ending does show that they are not merely killing machines.

He also goes out of his way to deny that humanity is being killed. He says ascended into Reaper form.

I don't like preaching this. I don't like Synthesis. I just see no way to ignore what the writers are telling us, and showing us in the epilogues. I wish I could, more than that I wish BioWare had chosen an ending that did not polarize their fanbase.

@Robertthebard

True enough. I would imagine the history books/pads/implants/stone carvings, would be quite bloated after 50k years of recorded history. Doesn't mean that there wouldn't be some things worth preserving for our succesors, no matter their level. If only for historians or their equivalents, Can't recall anything notworthy happing 50k year ago though.



That aside... considering Walters and Hudsons inspirations.. like the Matrix.. Maybe the billion programs inside Nazara/Sovereign were people like us, "living" in ignorance while the Catalyst/Architect use them for his own ends.

Far fetched, yep. Idiotic perhaps, but hey speculation for everyone.

The thing is, in 50,000 years, we could have an ELE, and everything would have to reset.  The volcano that is Yellowstone National Park could erupt, blanketing the world in volcanic ash, and killing probably everyone, but definitely most of the world.  Since the Caldera makes up the majority of the park, if it ever erupts, it's going to be an ELE.  If you don't know, that means Extinction Level Event.  Somebody may not know that.  Alternatively, we could be hit by a meteor, sometime in the next 50,000 years.  Worst case, we could get hit by a meteor that makes that aforementioned volcano erupt, and then we're dead twice over...  The point being, everything that we know can be lost to the sands of time, through natural causes, nuclear war, zombie apocalypse, not sure on that last one, but this is BSN, I'd better add it.  The end result is the same, nothing left for future civilizations to remember us by, barring the odd monument here or there that might survive.  Sort of like cave drawings that we find today, that may or may not mean more than they appear to mean.

[andy6915]

Of course the catalyst would deny they're dying. To its horrible technical logic, data and life are pretty much the same thing. It would see taking a bunch of roaches and smashing them into paste and putting them into a sealed jar as "preserving". You can't use a crazy being's crazy logic to say that it's not actually crazy. It doesn't work.

And yes, the Reapers are alive and "freed" with synthesis. But they're not the species they "ascended from", they're a walking perversion of that species. Fundamentally different and separate from the species that died thousands of year ago to make that Reaper. If you want to argue that it's bad genocide to kill Reapers because they're sapient, that's a different argument then saying that killing them is bad because it's killing the species that got pumped into the Reaper to create it.

[Vortex13]

andy69156915 wrote...

Of course the catalyst would deny they're dying. To its horrible technical logic, data and life are pretty much the same thing. It would see taking a bunch of roaches and smashing them into paste and putting them into a sealed jar as "preserving". You can't use a crazy being's crazy logic to say that it's not actually crazy. It doesn't work.

And yes, the Reapers are alive and "freed" with synthesis. But they're not the species they "ascended from", they're a walking perversion of that species. Fundamentally different and separate from the species that died thousands of year ago to make that Reaper. If you want to argue that it's bad genocide to kill Reapers because they're sapient, that's a different argument then saying that killing them is bad because it's killing the species that got pumped into the Reaper to create it.

Pretty much how I see it.

How many Reapers are there? I believe somebody once proposed that there were around 20,000. So Destroy kills 20,000 Reapers minus the ones that were killed before the crucible fired; NOT the untold trillions of minds that comprise the Reapers, those died the moment they were processed. Destroy kills the Reapers and the information they have, that's it (and EDI and the Geth but we're discussing the Reapers here) its not some atrocious thing that dwarfs even the Reapers and their cycles; unless one considers the destruction of the Mona Lisa to be a greater tragedy then the Holocaust.

[Auintus]

essarr71 wrote...

Except the information isnt shared. I suppose the Reapers remember. Serial Killers usually savor the memory. 
Point being: you cant lose what you dont have. Much of what the universe was will never be known. Even the history of our own race has plenty of question marks. Were doing fine.  Id rather not know than be goo. 

It's shared following Synthesis. The choice isn't between ignorance or death. Either we are destroyed by synthetics and forgotten, or harvested by the Reapers and remembered. Those were the options until the Crucible became involved.

[Auintus]

robertthebard wrote...

But also inaccurate, since Liara planted time capsules all over the galaxy.  They would serve much as the Prothean Beacons did in our cycle.  However, nothing lasts forever, and over the course of 50,000 years, much that was known can be lost, whether there are Reapers or not.  How many of the Earthshaking events of this century be remembered in 50,000 years?

Unlike the capsules, the Reapers don't remember events, they "remember" essence. The fragments and pieces that make up what a culture is. Liara's capsules can't do the same, though they have a much lower price.

[sveners]

Vortex13 wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Of course the catalyst would deny they're dying. To its horrible technical logic, data and life are pretty much the same thing. It would see taking a bunch of roaches and smashing them into paste and putting them into a sealed jar as "preserving". You can't use a crazy being's crazy logic to say that it's not actually crazy. It doesn't work.

And yes, the Reapers are alive and "freed" with synthesis. But they're not the species they "ascended from", they're a walking perversion of that species. Fundamentally different and separate from the species that died thousands of year ago to make that Reaper. If you want to argue that it's bad genocide to kill Reapers because they're sapient, that's a different argument then saying that killing them is bad because it's killing the species that got pumped into the Reaper to create it.

Pretty much how I see it.

How many Reapers are there? I believe somebody once proposed that there were around 20,000. So Destroy kills 20,000 Reapers minus the ones that were killed before the crucible fired; NOT the untold trillions of minds that comprise the Reapers, those died the moment they were processed. Destroy kills the Reapers and the information they have, that's it (and EDI and the Geth but we're discussing the Reapers here) its not some atrocious thing that dwarfs even the Reapers and their cycles; unless one considers the destruction of the Mona Lisa to be a greater tragedy then the Holocaust.

I really don't want to argue about this. Honestly I don't like defending something I just consider to be horrible.

I guess it comes down to how you regard the Catalyst.

I you consider it a crazy being with crazy logic, then Destroy. While I do agree somewhat, but I also see the Catalyst as just an expositionary tool, like countless others we've met through the trilogy. Just an information dump for us to learn what the writers want us to know. Before we make our desicion.

Between his "knowledge", Legions comment about the billion programs in Sovereign, and Synthesis showing the benevolence (heh) of the freed Reapers, Also EDI, the Geth, the Citadel and the Relays. I just can't choose Destroy. 

I hate Synthesis, but I will always jump into that damn beam. Which is also why I've only finished the game twice, and probably never will again.


But that's just me 

Modifié par sveners, 28 mars 2013 - 06:12 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vortex13 wrote...

(*snip*)

But the big difference between DA:A and ME 3's synthesis (and why I prefer DA's take on it) is that Awakening is an INDIVIDUAL basis, whereas Synthesis is all encompassing. If Commander Shepard was able to tell the Catalyst to relinquish control of the Reapers WITHOUT altering the entire galaxy, or better yet, if the Catalyst didn't exist and the Reapers were their own entities with Leviathan being a rouge Reaper that disagreed with Harbinger and his regime, then I could sympathize with them.

(*snip*)

I'm with you all day long on both points. The imposed change on everyone really does violate the integrity of the concept, for one thing. The change itself can stay, but should be restricted to Shepard and then offered to volunteers. On that note, take a looksie at that last link in my sig if you haven't already.

And YES, the lack of a "friendly" Reaper and/or Reaper-proxy also hurts the prospect of Synthesis. We had Wrex/Eve to show us that not all krogan are scum. We had Legion to show us not all geth are hostile. So on, so forth. I have to wonder if they tried to make us see the "good" in the Reapers through the catalyst, but failed miserably at it.

I can mostly get over them, but without a doubt, there are some hardcore execution issues with Sync.

[eye basher]

Killing the reapers no it's not mercy it's just a job well done.

[Reorte]

andy69156915 wrote...

Of course the catalyst would deny they're dying. To its horrible technical logic, data and life are pretty much the same thing. It would see taking a bunch of roaches and smashing them into paste and putting them into a sealed jar as "preserving". You can't use a crazy being's crazy logic to say that it's not actually crazy. It doesn't work.

Store the jar along with a DVD containing everything you know about roach behaviour and life and you've got an even closer analogy. I'm sure the information about their original species is preserved but not as anything more than a cold, unfeeling record. There have been plenty of people who have had lots of information written down about them, lots of recordings made of them, easily enough to know that person very well, but once they're dead they're dead even though that knowledge is preserved, even if you'd got a bit of them in a freezer you could still clone them from.

What I've said makes sense. I've not seen anything to convince me that it's either possibly or desirable to make a Reaper any other way. Unfortunately at some point though making sense stopped mattering in Mass Effect so it might all be wrong.

Modifié par Reorte, 28 mars 2013 - 07:21 .

[Auld Wulf]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I'm with you all day long on both points. The imposed change on everyone really does violate the integrity of the concept, for one thing. The change itself can stay, but should be restricted to Shepard and then offered to volunteers. On that note, take a looksie at that last link in my sig if you haven't already.

And YES, the lack of a "friendly" Reaper and/or Reaper-proxy also hurts the prospect of Synthesis. We had Wrex/Eve to show us that not all krogan are scum. We had Legion to show us not all geth are hostile. So on, so forth. I have to wonder if they tried to make us see the "good" in the Reapers through the catalyst, but failed miserably at it.

I can mostly get over them, but without a doubt, there are some hardcore execution issues with Sync.

These are interesting points and I don't entirely disagree with them. Hopefully I'll be heard out, here.

The problem with restricting Synthesis to Shepard is that Synthesis might not reach enough people in time. Even then, it might be held back from certain groups for whatever reason. The better solution is to have the Reapers themselves handle Synthesis -- this would cement their benevolences and it would allow a more impartial and unbiased view as to who gets Synthesis. The Reapers ask if you want it, and you can decline if you want. There's a certain... poetic nature, to that, considering the nature of the series. As slaves to the Catalyst, the Reapers were forced to ascend people according to the Catalyst's design. Under Synthesis, people can ascend optionally whilst retaining their individuality.

In Synthesis, people do retain their individuality (clearly), but it's not optional. Again, though, I find Shepard handling this as some kind of pseudo-Jesus to be a flawed vision, because it puts it in the hands of one entity. And I don't believe that Synthesis should be controlled by one entity. The "one entity" factor is my only worry about Control. (I don't think Control is bad, I just worry that Shepard might become more and more unethical over time, since he's only really got himself to talk to, and he makes all the decisions as to what happens with Reaper tech). So whilst I want Synthesis to be optional, I don't want Shepard handling it.

What's interesting is that one ending claims that Synthesis IS optional. It's the one where you don't cure the genophage, so understandably not a lot of people have seen it. (And people don't believe what they haven't seen in the game, even if it exists on Youtube. That in turn leads to the asinine go-around of canon isn't canon.) I won't push this as canon any more because I'm tired of arguing about it, but what I will say is that I'd be happy if BioWare could change Synthesis a bit to say that the Reapers are responsible for doling it out, and that it is actually optional.

As for the friendly Reaper. I really don't know what to think about this... I really don't. On one hand, it depresses me, you know? It feels lilke hand-holding, the sort of hand-holding we'd never see in a good book. In a good book, you might not know the true nature of a foe until the very end. Books don't throw in hand-holding elements like a friendly person who's escaped from the supposed enemy, just to inform us of how wrong we are throughout the story. That... might even ruin the story. I'd always felt that a large part of the cleverness of ME3 is how the ending scenes turn everything on its head. It's a massive paradigm shift.

To say that we need a friendly Reaper, isn't that like saying that paradigm shifts are wrong, that they're bad, and that they should never be used in a narrative as a device to change perceptions? Doesn't that say that we should be readily informed of everything that's going to happen in the story? Doesn't that remove any possible surprises that might be waiting for us? I've read a lot of sci-fi, and twist endings aren't exactly unknown to me. They clearly are to the majority of the ME fanbase, but not to me. I'm used to that. I feel that, on some level, it's part and parcel of sci-fi, as sci-fi exists to challenge what you believe the future is.

To be honest, I don't believe a sci-fi is a good sci-fi unless it's philosophical. The philosophy of Mass Effect deals with things like slavery and control, and racism. The paradigm shift exists to show how easily and simply a person can be conditioned into being racist, and then how difficult they find it to step back from that precipice, often taking the dive instead. Mass Effect quite intentionally tries to program the player to be racist against the Reapers, just to introduce a paradigm shift. The message there is that you should question what you think you know. Not many people do. As such, I saw the ending of Mass Effect coming a little while before it arrived.

Mass Effect exists as an interesting experiment. And the best stories are experiments. The storyteller uses various tricks of plot and narrative in order to play with the mind and perceptions of the reader, even right up until the end. The end result is an appreciation for how clever the storyteller is, and the new perceptions you've been presented with. Mass Effect's new perception is "Just because something looks strange and other people think it's evil, that doesn't actually mean that it is." Of course, not many want to accept that, instead preferring to see the Reapers as abominations.

Would Mass Effect be half as clever if there was Barney the Friendly Reaper bouncing about?

I can see what you're saying. I'm just not sure I agree. I'll agree to disagree in this case.

[Steelcan]

Reaper benevolence. Now I'm sure Auld Aolf is trolling

[Astartes Marine]

Racist against the Reapers? Not me, no I just have a cold indifference like Samara and am set in my goal. I do hate the holobrat though, lazy last minute appearances...

[Applepie_Svk]

Steelcan wrote...

Reaper benevolence. Now I'm sure Auld Aolf is trolling

As paragon Shepalyst maybe, as renegade Shepalyst - bwahahahaha - Welcome to gulag...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 28 mars 2013 - 08:12 .

[Redbelle]

I think the problem with ME3 is that it tackled alot of contemparary issues during it's 3 game run, then abandoned it's past history to focus soely on the Reapers without taking into account the in game history. A change of a bad guy into a good guy or vice versa needs much much more than a brand new character walking in at the 11th hour saying:

'It's all right, I know we ripped your fleets apart in ME1, showed what we can do to people in ME2 via the collectors, gooed hundreds of thousands of humans and then launched an all out invasion in ME3 where we eventually owned up and told you that only the human's would be Reaperised, and all the others would simply be purged and their collective history and culture erased from the fabric of the galaxy as best we can............

...............But its for your own good. Really! Imagine what life would have been like if we HADN'T done any of that....... I know..... I know, it's hard to find the words."

[Bill Casey]

Synthesis is racist as hell...
It purports there's something fundamentally wrong with organics and synthetics that needs changing...
It's an affirmation of the Reaper's racism against organic and synthetic life, and is pure hate dressed up as love...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 28 mars 2013 - 10:35 .

[Auintus]

Bill Casey wrote...

Synthesis is racist as hell...
It purports there's something fundamentally wrong with organics and synthetics that needs changing...
It's an affirmation of the Reaper's racism against organic and synthetic life, and is pure hate dressed up as love...

There is something fundamentally wrong with organics and synthetics. Our technology constantly improves to help us overcome our flaws. Synthetics attempt to gain more and more information in an attempt to understand. Synthesis helps both overcome these, to a point.
As for the last bit, it's not hate or love. They view us more like pets. Not equals, but something that must be controlled and prevented from harming itself.

[Bill Casey]

Auintus wrote...

There is something fundamentally wrong with organics and synthetics.

No...
There is not...

[KENNY4753]

Every organic and every synthetic has flaws and though flaws make us who we are.

That is what makes synthesis so bad. You are taking away everybodies unique qualities turning us into the same completely different being.

[Auld Wulf]

Steelcan wrote...

Reaper benevolence. Now I'm sure Auld Aolf is trolling

Why?

Okay, let's run a hypothetical thought exercise, a little experiment, to see if we can free you from that prison.

Hypothetical: Your sister has been mind controlled to kill a person. The family of the person want to see your sister executed for her "crime." From their perspective, all they know is this evil person who slaughtered one of their own in cold blood. You tell them that your sister can be a benevolent, kind person. They scoff at this, saying that a monster isn't capable of benevolence -- because that's all they see, a monster. To them, there is no possibility of being benevolent.

The Reapers: The Reapers have been mind controlled to undergo harvests. There is the possibility that they are capable of good and hugely benevolent acts, but they have no one to argue for them. It's down to the player to realise the potential. Yet as the player, one might choose to see them only as monsters, despite the fact that any evils they were involved in were committed under the influence of mind control. To the player, there may be no possibility of being benevolent.

Do you understand, now?

Statement: The Reapers were mind controlled to commit monstrous acts.

Statement: The Reapers (in the Synthesis ending) choose to be benevolent once given free will.

So, yes. Reaper benevolence is a thing. Escape that prison. Understand.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Another interesting fact:

Glowboy states that without his solution synthetics would destroy all organics.


But both the Synthetic/Organic wars we are told about (The Protheans Metacon War, and the Quarian attempt to retake Rannoch) Would have been complete successes if the Reapers hadn't intervened.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Auld Wulf wrote...



Statement: The Reapers were mind controlled to commit monstrous acts.

Statement: The Reapers (in the Synthesis ending) choose to be benevolent once given free will.

So, yes. Reaper benevolence is a thing. Escape that prison. Understand.

The Reapers "benevolence" happens after Shep jumps into the beam, so you really can't factor that into an ending decision.


Metagaming and all that.

[essarr71]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...



Statement: The Reapers were mind controlled to commit monstrous acts.

Statement: The Reapers (in the Synthesis ending) choose to be benevolent once given free will.

So, yes. Reaper benevolence is a thing. Escape that prison. Understand.

The Reapers "benevolence" happens after Shep jumps into the beam, so you really can't factor that into an ending decision.


Metagaming and all that.

Yeup.  Who could say how they would act given freedom.  Apparently the entire milky way sees things differently.  If the Krogan have a sudden shift in policy, who can say the Reapers didn't.

[Reorte]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Statement: The Reapers were mind controlled to commit monstrous acts.

Statement: The Reapers (in the Synthesis ending) choose to be benevolent once given free will.

Both of those statements are opinion. There's no evidence that they are mind controlled earlier on (not being so would make more sense), or that their post-synthesis "choice" is anything other than the same disturbing mind-altering that would be required for Synthesis to actually achieve what Glowboy claims it will achieve.

[Auintus]

Bill Casey wrote...

Auintus wrote...

There is something fundamentally wrong with organics and synthetics.

No...
There is not...

No? Our ability to suffer injury and illness is just a feature then? Synthetic inability to truly understand organic life isn't something that could be better?
If nothing is wrong, then we are perfect. No one alive has the right to claim perfection.