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[Xilizhra]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Khelish wrote...
What do you think of the actual husks?

Like Banshees, Ravagers, Brutes (Mixed Krogan & Turian)?

How do they fit into a post-synthesis world? All the husks were made for a single purpose: Killing. What good would bringing back their minds be if they look like abominations, twisted, and sick mutations of life?

You can't really expect a wife to welcome her husk husband back home with open arms... Right? 

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but this is what really puts me off about synthesis.

This is what I want to know too, and from what I have seen many Synth supporters like Wolfie never even glance at the fact that Reaperized sentients, forms that have been perfected for killing and destruction, can now think. 

Praetorians that are a culmination of dozens of corpses?  Alive and free thinking.
Scions, the amalgamation of flesh from untold numbers of bodies?  Alive and free thinking.
Cannibals, a Batarian fused with some human parts here and there with at least one extra head?  Alive and free thinking.
Brutes? 
Banshees?
Collectors?

How do they fit into the supposed "utopia" with sunshines, rainbows, and everything is so perfect and wonderful?

If they do, in fact, think, why would they ne tormented? The minds created by Synthesis would be entirely new, as the old brain matter would have been replaced by tech. They wouldn't be the beings that formerly inhabited the meat, to be sure. And even if they have inbuilt weaponry, we already have both krogan and yahg, not to mention rachni, as living beings here.

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Statement: The Reapers were mind controlled to commit monstrous acts.

Statement: The Reapers (in the Synthesis ending) choose to be benevolent once given free will.

So, yes. Reaper benevolence is a thing. Escape that prison. Understand.

. You fail again to understand the difference between mind control and indoctrination.

Mind control is when someone is forced to do something out of charcater.  Indoctrination makes that action part of their character.  And I see no evidence to suggest the Reapers are mind-controlled rather than indoctrinated

[Auld Wulf]

Steelcan wrote...

You fail again to understand the difference between mind control and indoctrination.

Mind control is when someone is forced to do something out of charcater.  Indoctrination makes that action part of their character.  And I see no evidence to suggest the Reapers are mind-controlled rather than indoctrinated

Brain harder. The Reapers are mostly synthetic beings, they have no 'brain' to be indoctrinated. What they do have is programs and runtimes which can dictate control. As such, disabling those returns them to their original state (free will). There's plenty of evidence of this in the ending.

Really, play the ending again and choose Synthesis. The Catalyst talks about control over the Reapers, and in Synthesis the Reapers choose benevolent acts. This is because the runtimes forcing them to obey the Catalyst are removed from their consciousness. The old machines are no longer enslaved.

[essarr71]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

You fail again to understand the difference between mind control and indoctrination.

Mind control is when someone is forced to do something out of charcater.  Indoctrination makes that action part of their character.  And I see no evidence to suggest the Reapers are mind-controlled rather than indoctrinated

Brain harder. The Reapers are mostly synthetic beings, they have no 'brain' to be indoctrinated. What they do have is programs and runtimes which can dictate control. As such, disabling those returns them to their original state (free will). There's plenty of evidence of this in the ending.

Really, play the ending again and choose Synthesis. The Catalyst talks about control over the Reapers, and in Synthesis the Reapers choose benevolent acts. This is because the runtimes forcing them to obey the Catalyst are removed from their consciousness. The old machines are no longer enslaved.

Brain harderer.  If the Catalyst created and controled the Reapers, then it didn't need to sabotage anything.  By removing his code during synthesis, Shep is forcing a behavioral change.  Who is mind controlling who now?

You're better off saying that without the need for the cycle, the Reapers are free to persue other things.  But we already know that synthesis adjusts the thinking of organics.. you can't disprove it doesn't do the same to synthetics.  

[Auld Wulf]

Xilizhra wrote...

If they do, in fact, think, why would they be tormented? The minds created by Synthesis would be entirely new, as the old brain matter would have been replaced by tech. They wouldn't be the beings that formerly inhabited the meat, to be sure. And even if they have inbuilt weaponry, we already have both krogan and yahg, not to mention rachni, as living beings here.

This is exactly what it surprises me that so few people understand. Despite the Catalyst patiently spelling it out for them.

The purpose the Catalyst feels it has is to alter life to a different state where it can be controlled. As such, when a civilisation is harvested, all of those minds end up within the Reaper consensus. So I always figured that husks are either running some Reaper AI code or they're being remotely controlled by a Reaper. It's just weird to me that people fetishise anthropomorphism, in that if they see something that resembles human in any way, it must therefore function as a human does.

If they're being controlled by a Reaper, then it's up to the Reaper what happens to the husks. Husks could simply be many eyes for a Reaper, many bodies which a Reaper can inhabit. Alternatively, if husks are running Reaper AI code, then most likely they become new forms of life entirely -- much as the geth did. In either case, there's no indication of why they would suffer. The husk we see in Synthesis most certainly isn't suffering.

If they're AIs, then they can be accepted into galactic civilisation just like the geth. There's no reason not to. People will learn to accept them despite their appearance, and they might be able to jump bodies like the geth anyway. If they're Reaper controlled then the Reaper can decide to either use them or put them to rest, depending on each Reaper individually.

I just don't get where this idea comes from that they're a suffering person, because the Synthesis ending directly contradicts this. (The Synthesis ending directly contradicts a lot of things that Reaper haters believe.)

[o Ventus]

Xilizhra wrote...

If they do, in fact, think, why would they ne tormented? The minds created by Synthesis would be entirely new, as the old brain matter would have been replaced by tech. They wouldn't be the beings that formerly inhabited the meat, to be sure. And even if they have inbuilt weaponry, we already have both krogan and yahg, not to mention rachni, as living beings here.

The krogan, yahg, and rachni are organisms that have inborne functions and capacity for violence. Just like literally every signal other organic being that has ever existed, ever. Except maybe phytoplankton.

The husk variants were explicitly created for the sole purpose of killing people. Organics aren't created with this in mind.

It would be like a zombie who has eaten his family regaining sentience.

[Auld Wulf]

essarr71 wrote...

Brain harderer.  If the Catalyst created and controled the Reapers, then it didn't need to sabotage anything.  By removing his code during synthesis, Shep is forcing a behavioral change.  Who is mind controlling who now?

You're better off saying that without the need for the cycle, the Reapers are free to persue other things.  But we already know that synthesis adjusts the thinking of organics.. you can't disprove it doesn't do the same to synthetics.

Oh dear. I was expecting better than a case of 'monkey see, monkey do.'

This is because the AI are actually virtual life, but AI is easier to control than organic life. See: The geth. The fact of the matter is is that the AI would most likely be able to choose and evolve in its own way, much like EDI and Legion, but the control program of the Catalyst is stopping the Reapers from doing this. Removing the control program allows the Reapers to evolve along their own paths, just like the geth.

And where does Synthesis adjust the thinking of organics? Your headcanon does not count as canon.

[Auld Wulf]

@o Ventus

I've already answered this one. You're anthropomorphising them, which is a lot of the problem with this argument. People expect both the Reapers and the husks to be humans with brains. They are not.

[Khelish]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Your headcanon does not count as canon.

Did you really just say that? 

Oh man, the hypocrisy... 

[o Ventus]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@o Ventus

I've already answered this one. You're anthropomorphising them, which is a lot of the problem with this argument. People expect both the Reapers and the husks to be humans with brains. They are not.

I didn't say anything about the Reapers, so that one is irrelevant.

It's proven that husks are not entirely under Reaper control (or if they are, that it can be broken). Husks can also be created from non-Reaper methods, as shown in Sanctuary.

The Synthesis ending doesn't contradict anything, because it doesn't show anything other than a husk running away from a guy. Judging by the facial animation and body language of the husk, I would indeed say that they are now sentient and/or sapient.

Modifié par o Ventus, 29 mars 2013 - 03:56 .

[Auld Wulf]

Khelish wrote...

Did you really just say that? 

Oh man, the hypocrisy... 

I have the feeling that fantasies/dreams that didn't happen in reality are being put to the fore, here.

So, tell me, why am I being a hypocrite? Everything I say is founded in canon. I've watched all variants of the endings and everything involving the Leviathans, the Catalyst, and the Reapers repeatedly. I am most likely more aware of canon than most.

[Auld Wulf]

o Ventus wrote...

It's proven that husks are not entirely under Reaper control (or if they are, that it can be broken). Husks can also be created from non-Reaper methods, as shown in Sanctuary.

That... just adds credence to my other notion. I presented two. The other was that the husks are nothing more than remote-controlled drones (they created their own control signal in Sanctuary). This actually fleshes out my argument. Thank you.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 29 mars 2013 - 03:56 .

[o Ventus]

Auld Wulf wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

It's proven that husks are not entirely under Reaper control (or if they are, that it can be broken). Husks can also be created from non-Reaper methods, as shown in Sanctuary.

That... just adds credence to my other notion. I presented two. The other was that the husks are nothing more than remote-controlled drones (they created their own control signal in Sanctuary). This actually adds credence to my argument. Thank you.

My point is that the control can be broken. You lose points for ignoring that.

[Khelish]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Wulf, I am referring to your headcanon on the Morning War. I could bring the post up where you insulted me for using "headcanon", then going on for a whole page using it yourself. 

[Auld Wulf]

o Ventus wrote...

My point is that the control can be broken. You lose points for ignoring that.

No, I'm not. I can create a remote-control that works with your remote-controlled car. They don't break control, they specifically say that they are making a new control signal. Please, play Sanctuary again. They don't free husks, they control husks with a new control signal.

[Auld Wulf]

Khelish wrote...

Wulf, I am referring to your headcanon on the Morning War. I could bring the post up where you insulted me for using "headcanon", then going on for a whole page using it yourself. 

Everything I said about that was based upon the geth consensus. Your point?

[o Ventus]

Auld Wulf wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

My point is that the control can be broken. You lose points for ignoring that.

No, I'm not. I can create a remote-control that works with your remote-controlled car. They don't break control, they specifically say that they are making a new control signal. Please, play Sanctuary again. They don't free husks, they control husks with a new control signal.

They are actively creating husks independent of Reaper control.

If different husk variants can't be "freed", then explain the Awakened Collector.

[Applepie_Svk]

Khelish wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Wulf, I am referring to your headcanon on the Morning War. I could bring the post up where you insulted me for using "headcanon", then going on for a whole page using it yourself. 

it´s Wulf what else have you thought ? 

[Auld Wulf]

o Ventus wrote...

They are actively creating husks independent of Reaper control.

If different husk variants can't be "freed", then explain the Awakened Collector.

Noap. They're creating a control signal. They even talk about the distance at which it can operate, and how they love being able to control Reaper forces. I'm sorry, but I know I'm right about this.

As for the Collectors? The Leviathans are powerful telepaths, so I don't fully understand their capabilities, and neither do you. It's possible that they simply took the consciousnesses from the Reaper involved (it was fighting one) and dumpedt hat into the heads of the collectors. So each individual Collector now sees itself as an individual prothean. This is speculation, yes, because I don't know how else to answer that.

None of us can really say what Leviathan did that day.

[essarr71]

Auld Wulf wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Brain harderer.  If the Catalyst created and controled the Reapers, then it didn't need to sabotage anything.  By removing his code during synthesis, Shep is forcing a behavioral change.  Who is mind controlling who now?

You're better off saying that without the need for the cycle, the Reapers are free to persue other things.  But we already know that synthesis adjusts the thinking of organics.. you can't disprove it doesn't do the same to synthetics.

Oh dear. I was expecting better than a case of 'monkey see, monkey do.'

This is because the AI are actually virtual life, but AI is easier to control than organic life. See: The geth. The fact of the matter is is that the AI would most likely be able to choose and evolve in its own way, much like EDI and Legion, but the control program of the Catalyst is stopping the Reapers from doing this. Removing the control program allows the Reapers to evolve along their own paths, just like the geth.

And where does Synthesis adjust the thinking of organics? Your headcanon does not count as canon.

Indeed.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

They are actively creating husks independent of Reaper control.

If different husk variants can't be "freed", then explain the Awakened Collector.

MP Studio invoking "rule of cool."

They have playable geth listed as "networked-intelligence." When geth were networked minds, a single unit has no more intelligence than a varren and relies on #s to compensate for it.

MP geth should not be able to talk, what to say of carry out coordinated attacks.

[Auld Wulf]

@essarr71

More monkey see, monkey do and implications without justification or explanation? I did expect better. At least I'm explaining myself, honestly.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I think this...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Brain damage wouldn't really factor in since in ME1 it stated that the husks have almost all organs and fluids replaced by tech thanks to the Dragon's Teeth.  One can only assume the Reapers follow similar procedures in converting other races into ground forces.  IF there was a brain, the machinery could sustain it even after the organics fail.

Husks are dead organic bodies, but they "come to life" insofar as Reapers gain control of them through cybernetics.

Same deal as Saren. Man was dead, but Sovvy assumed direct control through the implants.

The implants don't have minds of their own to suddenly resurrect the dead body. It relies on Reaper control.

... bears repeatan right now.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 29 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[Khelish]

Auld Wulf wrote...

My point?

You use headcanon yourself, then when others use it, they are somehow in the "wrong" for doing so...

[Auld Wulf]

@HYR 2.0

That makes sense.