445 réponses à ce sujet

[Auld Wulf]

GeneralMoskvin_2.0 wrote...

I consider the Reapers enslaved victims of the catalyst. And as I could not sacrifice the Geth (EDI is another story...), Destroy is a no-go. I'm still torn between Control and Synthesis. No idea what I should pick.

Well, that's your choice. In Synthesis you do have a very direct implication that the Reapers are set free, but if you want you can headcanon that the same thing happens in Control, since none of us are really aware of what happens after the slides. It's all down to what you believe your Shepard would do. A Paragon Shepard might set them free, a Renegade Shepard might not.

I opt for immediate freedom, as I don't want to see them enslaved any more. But it's really up to you.

I like this thread.

Thanks HYR.

[Auld Wulf]

Argolas wrote...

About the actual topic: The Reapers are monsters, I don't care about a merciful "death" for them (I don't consider them alive). I do care about those who were harvested to become part of such an abomination.

Ah, finally, an admission. You're killing them because you don't understand them, and you hate what they represent. It's not a mercy killing, it's not a justice killing, it's a faith-/belief-/religion-based killing. And it's such a powerful feeling of disgust you have for them that you want to kill them without even talking to them first.

Interesting.

[Auld Wulf]

Jadebaby wrote...

a HYR 2.0 thread - Nonsense, tbh.

Does calling a thread that you have no logical or rational response to other than insulting (by calling it nonsense) make you feel empowered?

[Bill Casey]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If you want to know, free the Reapers from the Catalyst's control - and ask.

Not an option and you know it...

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Argolas wrote...

About the actual topic: The Reapers are monsters, I don't care about a merciful "death" for them (I don't consider them alive). I do care about those who were harvested to become part of such an abomination.

Ah, finally, an admission. You're killing them because you don't understand them, and you hate what they represent. It's not a mercy killing, it's not a justice killing, it's a faith-/belief-/religion-based killing. And it's such a powerful feeling of disgust you have for them that you want to kill them without even talking to them first.

Interesting.

. We did talk to them, w all talked to their leader

[3DandBeyond]

Rhayak wrote...

In Synthesis, however, it's explained that the Reapers did preserve the knowledge of those Reaperized. So they do continue to exist somehow, and there is a reason for NOT wanting to destroy them.

Nope.  Not so.  In synthesis, nowhere does the kid (not the most believable thing ever) or even EDI say that the knowledge of anyone turned into a reaper is preserved.

In synthesis Shepard is told that all people will get knowledge-Synthesis doesn't say people will be reaperized and get knowledge either.  Synthesis also never shows this, so I'd really like a quote of some specific statement somewhere that says the people inside of reapers still exist as thoughts or something.  And yet, even that is of no consequence if so because thoughts and memories do not make up the totality of what a person is.  Even if just their bodies are lost to them, part of who they were is now gone.  People live to love, have fulfilling relationships with others, to laugh, to cry, to play, to learn, have sex, to comfort and be comforted, to do a great many things and inside of a reaper they can no longer do anything (except maybe cry if they do have feelings of some sort).  It's absolutely ridiculous to think this kind of existence would be anything you'd wish upon anyone you know.

[Auld Wulf]

LineHolder wrote...

It's not genocide. When did Wulfie convert you anyway?

Wait, you see this as "conveerting?" That's interesting. So are your arguments based upon religion/faith/belief, which one has to be converted from to another?

Anyway, to the contrary, Ieldra and I have always seen eye to eye on this. Check her older threads. I think she pointed out they were enslaved before I did. That was a fun discovery.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Auld Wulf wrote...
That's still an appeal to mercy, an intellectual fallacy. All we can do is let the Reapers choose what they want. If they want to die, it's within their power to kill themselves. It's not our choice. It's horrendously unethical to even begin to think that it is. It's like killing a person in a hospital without asking them first, even though they're fully capable of responding.

And Synthesis shows us that many Reapers did indeed choose to live. They're a part of galactic civilisation and helping out with the rebuilding effort. They seem happy enough to me. If they wanted to die, all they'd have to do is initiate a self-destruct or fly into the nearest star. Yet it seems they didn't do that. Interesting, that.

Or they're just not capable of self-termination, when the entire point of them being created was perservation I wagger there some protocol in their design which prevents the function of self-termination. And the probelm with making the choice their's is that we're not given the option to ask them what they want one or another. You're infer them being happy which is your own intellectual fallacy since like me you have no way of knowing if they are since you didn't ask them their opinion either. You're interpreting them being happy just as much as I am them being unhappy, but say hypothetically that they agree with my assessment. Since you had a different interpertation you are now effectively condeming them to a life of continued suffering and guilt (which to me seem unethical). So it's a matter of interpretation and while yes they continue to exist in sythesis, I don't know how you've managed to deduce that they're happy, they don't exactly express emotions or say much of anything.

[Slayer299]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

I'm going to have to go with the argument that I'd kill the Reapers because they are the coffin's of dead civialisation's that commit galactic genocide once evey 50k year's.

Every piece of evidence we've seen (as I stated) tells us that the civilisations within are preserved. Read what HYR wrote about the virtual aliens within his OP if you want to understand that better. The fact of the matter is is that if we don't kill the Reapers, we could use the future-tech of the Leviathans (found within the Reapers) to give those people their lives and their bodies back. That is the ethical choice.

Furthermore, the Reapers aren't responsible for any acts committed, as it's done under mind control. As I said and I will continue to say -- we don't blame the gun for a crime committed, we blame the person who pulled the trigger. The Reapers were merely 'guns,' right up until they got their free will back (if you chose Synthesis). The Reapers have never been allowed to choose, they've never had that chance. They've been forced to obey.

And what do they choose to do with free will? Do they choose to kill, indoctrinate, or die? No, they choose to help people. The evidence is all there in canon. Ignore it all you want, but it doesn't change anything.

OKay, was that a really *serious* comment there? That we can use Levi-Reaper tech to give back the TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of individual minds you belive still exist in each Reaper their lives and bodies?!? 

To your gun analogy, I remember we melt down guns so that they don't get used again. 

[3DandBeyond]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Argolas wrote...

About the actual topic: The Reapers are monsters, I don't care about a merciful "death" for them (I don't consider them alive). I do care about those who were harvested to become part of such an abomination.

Ah, finally, an admission. You're killing them because you don't understand them, and you hate what they represent. It's not a mercy killing, it's not a justice killing, it's a faith-/belief-/religion-based killing. And it's such a powerful feeling of disgust you have for them that you want to kill them without even talking to them first.

Interesting.

What a load of crap.  He's saying he cares about those inside the reapers and not the monsters that "ate" them.  A shark eats a boy.  What happens to the shark?  It has nothing to do with religion.  And Shepard did try to talk to several of them or did you just ignore what is in the stories (something you're only too happy to say others have done).  And Shepard did talk to the kid who is the combined essence of the reapers along with being this idiotic program that created them from killer machines and his idiotic arrogant killing creators.  Yeah, I really care what they think.

[Kel Riever]

This is for Auld Wolf.  Who probably shouldn't be playing video games due to not understanding the differences between them and real life:



Who cares about mercy?  Its a fiction game with an atrociously produced ending.  Therefore, punt the Glowjob.

[Sideria]

Just for the record.

[Steelcan]

Auld Wolf, this will settle it for you.

I kill the Reapers for a few reasons

1. I do not see synthetics as an equal to organics. I think they are alive, but they are different. I can't seem to get over that difference.
2. I'm securing the galaxy's right to self-determination, we will make ou own path without the Reapers interfering.
3. I don't care that they are alive.
4. I am sociopathic murderer who enjoys killing for the sake of killing

Well one of those isn't serious, but you get the point.

[3DandBeyond]

Slayer299 wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

I'm going to have to go with the argument that I'd kill the Reapers because they are the coffin's of dead civialisation's that commit galactic genocide once evey 50k year's.

Every piece of evidence we've seen (as I stated) tells us that the civilisations within are preserved. Read what HYR wrote about the virtual aliens within his OP if you want to understand that better. The fact of the matter is is that if we don't kill the Reapers, we could use the future-tech of the Leviathans (found within the Reapers) to give those people their lives and their bodies back. That is the ethical choice.

Furthermore, the Reapers aren't responsible for any acts committed, as it's done under mind control. As I said and I will continue to say -- we don't blame the gun for a crime committed, we blame the person who pulled the trigger. The Reapers were merely 'guns,' right up until they got their free will back (if you chose Synthesis). The Reapers have never been allowed to choose, they've never had that chance. They've been forced to obey.

And what do they choose to do with free will? Do they choose to kill, indoctrinate, or die? No, they choose to help people. The evidence is all there in canon. Ignore it all you want, but it doesn't change anything.

OKay, was that a really *serious* comment there? That we can use Levi-Reaper tech to give back the TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of individual minds you belive still exist in each Reaper their lives and bodies?!? 

To your gun analogy, I remember we melt down guns so that they don't get used again. 

He's merely posting and not reading.  And he's selectively ignoring reality and what ME says.  There's no way in hell you can reclaim all those minds, let alone the people that were, from within reapers.  We have no idea first off what is left of them.  And this supposedly great technology (the kid is the example of that great tech?) could be in his estimation used to what, create new bodies for them, all those trillions?  Uh, no, the people are gone and the sooner they get to be put out of their misery and the misery of their loved ones or the misery of anyone with a heart and a brain, the better.  We've already seen plenty of what Leviathan's and the reapers' and the kid's tech is like.  Just what we need another attempt at synthesis in a lot of bodies-that has gone so well with their tech before.

And uploading someone's consciousness (data) into some structure does leave behind the essence of who that person was.  What a really ridiculous notion.

[Steelcan]

@Sideria, it's trivia nothing more. The cycles ensure that no one cycle is much more advanced than the others

[3DandBeyond]

Sideria wrote...

Just for the record.

That's the knowledge of the cultures.  It says nothing about the knowledge of the individuals within the reapers.  In fact, you have no idea where this knowledge (or the understanding given to all synthetics) comes from.  It could in fact be some data stored inside the kid (his knowledge of those cultures as they were being "ascended").

Again, this does not say this was knowledge (or the thoughts and memories) from those inside reapers.

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...

@Sideria, it's trivia nothing more. The cycles ensure that no one cycle is much more advanced than the others

Japan and Europe both hit a sort of feudal system at about the same time, neither significantly advanced over the other. Is their art the same? Their music? Their social philosophy? There is much more than just technological advancement to be remembered.

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Sideria, it's trivia nothing more. The cycles ensure that no one cycle is much more advanced than the others

Japan and Europe both hit a sort of feudal system at about the same time, neither significantly advanced over the other. Is their art the same? Their music? Their social philosophy? There is much more than just technological advancement to be remembered.

. T. R. I. V. I. A

[Xilizhra]

That's the knowledge of the cultures. It says nothing about the knowledge of the individuals within the reapers. In fact, you have no idea where this knowledge (or the understanding given to all synthetics) comes from. It could in fact be some data stored inside the kid (his knowledge of those cultures as they were being "ascended").

"They bring us" is indicative of the Reapers taking action to give it, otherwise she'd say something like "From them, we have taken."

[Sideria]

Steelcan wrote...

@Sideria, it's trivia nothing more. The cycles ensure that no one cycle is much more advanced than the others

Yeah all previous culture was Type 1. So they all have the same technological level. But each civilization is a unique from a culture, history, social point of view.
For me it's clearly not the main interest of synthesis, but it's sill count.

3DandBeyond wrote...

That's the knowledge of the cultures. It says nothing about the knowledge of the individuals within the reapers. In fact, you have no idea where this knowledge (or the understanding given to all synthetics) comes from. It could in fact be some data stored inside the kid (his knowledge of those cultures as they were being "ascended").

Again, this does not say this was knowledge (or the thoughts and memories) from those inside reapers.

Well between legion who's saying that Reaper are billion of mind and the organic smoothie that's clearly a data upload process. It's seems to me obvious that a reaper = knowledge of one civilization and more.

Modifié par Sideria, 26 mars 2013 - 05:43 .

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

@Sideria, it's trivia nothing more. The cycles ensure that no one cycle is much more advanced than the others

Japan and Europe both hit a sort of feudal system at about the same time, neither significantly advanced over the other. Is their art the same? Their music? Their social philosophy? There is much more than just technological advancement to be remembered.

. T. R. I. V. I. A

Then what are individuals worth? Their memories, emotions, drives. Trivia?
By your statement, anything that makes us unique from one another, anything more than puppets playing a part, is a useless, though maybe interesting, bit of information.

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...


Then what are individuals worth? Their memories, emotions, drives. Trivia?
By your statement, anything that makes us unique from one another, anything more than puppets playing a part, is a useless, though maybe interesting, bit of information.

.   The individuals are gone.  Legion says they are conjoined, that implies that they have become one new intelligence.  It's why Sovereign calls himself "I" not "We"

[Chashan]

@Sideria, it's trivia nothing more. The cycles ensure that no one cycle is much more advanced than the others

This,

3DandBeyond wrote...


That's the knowledge of the cultures.  It says nothing about the knowledge of the individuals within the reapers.  In fact, you have no idea where this knowledge (or the understanding given to all synthetics) comes from.  It could in fact be some data stored inside the kid (his knowledge of those cultures as they were being "ascended").

Again, this does not say this was knowledge (or the thoughts and memories) from those inside reapers.

and the more general point brought up here just let me arrive at the conclusion: What do we care for the loss of hypothetical data if it is made certain history, as perpetuated by the Reap-hurrs for full-blown eons, is not repeated again, ever?

I am not exactly one for putting historical data to the torch, but in the case of the tentacled kill-bots some people seem to have grown attached to, I'll make an exception.
Of course, the entire 'knowledge' and what have you would have made sense were it stored somewhere safe by the creature, and not within friggin' warships that see galaxy-wide front-line duty and even end up getting destroyed from time to time...but then, that would have required the thing to take more of a bargaining stance, only disclose access to that treasure-trove when choosing Synthes-

Then again, that would have required writing something of a good villain-character, and the thing is anything but. So...ultimately, I just prefer it gone from my playthroughs, thank you.

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...

Auintus wrote...


Then what are individuals worth? Their memories, emotions, drives. Trivia?
By your statement, anything that makes us unique from one another, anything more than puppets playing a part, is a useless, though maybe interesting, bit of information.

.   The individuals are gone.  Legion says they are conjoined, that implies that they have become one new intelligence.  It's why Sovereign calls himself "I" not "We"

Naturally. But the comparison still holds. The Reapers recall the cultures of the harvested races and offer them to those still alive. You claim this is of little to no value. As a culture is only the result of a collective's shared ideals, etc. etc., then the traits of those individuals are worthless, which carries into reality quite cleanly as "Culture is irrelevent, only technological advancement matters." Which is a rather dull way to look at the world, don't you think?