445 réponses à ce sujet

[Auintus]

alleyd wrote...

 I destroy the Reapers simply because I think they are too dangerous to other races. They are totally un-knowable and carry too many risk factors that cannot be measured. Even a single reaper carries a threat to any, and every race, except other Reapers and possibly Leviathan.

I equate them more as a pathogen, the most lethal pathogen imaginable. The only ultimate truth you can be sure of with Reapers is they did repeatedly cause extinction level events. Through enslavement or through freewill, the motivation is irrelavent, the consequences are the same.

It isn't racism to respect and fear a pathogen and to take the chance to eradicate it.

See, this is one of the few reasons for Destroy that I can understand. Removing the Wild Card. Making for absolutely certain that they never endanger anyone ever again. Not the choice I would take, but one that I can understand.

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...

Naturally. But the comparison still holds. The Reapers recall the cultures of the harvested races and offer them to those still alive. You claim this is of little to no value. As a culture is only the result of a collective's shared ideals, etc. etc., then the traits of those individuals are worthless, which carries into reality quite cleanly as "Culture is irrelevent, only technological advancement matters." Which is a rather dull way to look at the world, don't you think?

. It's not irrelevant.  It's just not the gold ine that many people make it to be

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Naturally. But the comparison still holds. The Reapers recall the cultures of the harvested races and offer them to those still alive. You claim this is of little to no value. As a culture is only the result of a collective's shared ideals, etc. etc., then the traits of those individuals are worthless, which carries into reality quite cleanly as "Culture is irrelevent, only technological advancement matters." Which is a rather dull way to look at the world, don't you think?

. It's not irrelevant.  It's just not the gold line that many people make it to be

Could you clarify that for me?

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Naturally. But the comparison still holds. The Reapers recall the cultures of the harvested races and offer them to those still alive. You claim this is of little to no value. As a culture is only the result of a collective's shared ideals, etc. etc., then the traits of those individuals are worthless, which carries into reality quite cleanly as "Culture is irrelevent, only technological advancement matters." Which is a rather dull way to look at the world, don't you think?

. It's not irrelevant.  It's just not the gold line that many people make it to be

Could you clarify that for me?

. Several Synthessis supporters use this line of thinking as justification for synthesis.  They liken it to discovering fire, a new Promethean discovery.

[Auintus]

Steelcan wrote...
 Several Synthessis supporters use this line of thinking as justification for synthesis.  They liken it to discovering fire, a new Promethean discovery.

So that's their entire reason for choosing Synthesis?

[Steelcan]

Auintus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Several Synthessis supporters use this line of thinking as justification for synthesis.  They liken it to discovering fire, a new Promethean discovery.

So that's their entire reason for choosing Synthesis?

. For one user, I think so.

[Applepie_Svk]

From what was told, Reapers are nothing more then mindless shells filled with books - memories of harvested... Reapers are beyound our or synthetic comprehension connection to them can be overwhelming like watching to library with all these books opened at same time. While organic mind cannot even grasp litle piece of these informations, the synthetics were trying to scan it.

- and try scan thousand or billions books at same time, therefore supercomputer... and space 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 26 mars 2013 - 06:15 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Pleasantly surprised at where we are. Lots of good responses, but I can't respond to all.

3DandBeyond wrote...

I base my opinion on reality. I can conceive of no human being (my only area of knowledge) that would willingly want to serve out eternity

In a story where there are many races besides humanity, even if you could successfully argue that all of humanity would reject that existence, there are some 11 other races that may choose otherwise. I've given a valid in-game example of one that chose to preserve itself in a different form and live with it rather than accept imminent death. It's not far-fetched that others would deem "Reaperhood" (if you will) an acceptable form of life.

If you insist of a real-life/human example, though, I'll give you one: http://social.biowar...rum/1/topic/105

OP wrote..... So I now reiterate my point that we must join with the Reapers. It is our only hope.

encased within a hideous monstrosity that exists with the sole purpose of liquefying more people. If ever there was a true definition of abomination the reapers are it.

Sorry, but when people start throwing that dreaded A-word around, I just can't take it seriously.

I mean, if you argued it for husks, and I'd be with you. Arguing a ship is an "monstrosity" though is silly, IMO.

I resent that Ed Wood-caliber pulp ME2 dumped on us. ME1 never resorted to such cheap horror tactics to illicit fear or make good villains (Sovereign was arguably their best work, without the "abomination"-nonsense). At worst, you had husks, but that was readily explained away as "psychological warfare" by Kaidan to give it some realistic rationality.

ME1 gave us unique adversaries: mysterious machine-gods (Reapers), networked-AI that were attacked by their own creators (geth), a disgruntled warrior-race (krogan), an elite agent tragically falling victim to the main adversary (Saren). ME2, OTOH, gave us cliched mutants/bugs from space (Collectors) and turned the Reapers from mysterious machine-gods into an Ed Wood monster. It's sad to think that the generic merc-scum were more grey than the main villian in the story, but that's ME2 for you.

And I'm glad we have one (arguably two) ending(s) in ME3 allowing us to reject that nonsense, on a meta-level.

The idea of mercy killing isn't to offer some saving grace for the reaper machines; it is to finally let the dead inside of them rest in peace if indeed they exist as thoughts anymore. But furthermore, it is also to let their loved ones know they are out of their misery.

I get that just fine.

I just think it's a conclusion that has been leapt to, typically being based only on that person's own/singular opinion.

Hence, the example I raised in the OP. Only difference between the two is consent. One was presumably willing, one was presumably not. If a society that would be otherwise willing to do this kind of thing (like the virtual alien) was forced into it, you think that force alone would make them wish for their death after they've been preserved? 

No, says I. Clearly, what mattered more to them was their civilization's survival over imminent death. If they chose it then, they'd choose it here as well.

It's one of the reasons I think it's irrational to choose control or synthesis-because people have to live with reapers made out of people juice, and with the knowledge that someone they know might be aware of just what they'd become-both very horrifying situations in my opinion.

If it's truly too horrible to live with, they can have themselves killed in a number of ways without much difficulty.

We're not dealing with animals here that are incapable putting themselves out of misery.

If it's not so horrible, well, that speaks to my point. In any case, better this way, they can decide for themselves.

Applepie_Svk wrote...
- and try scan thousand or billions books at same time, therefore supercomputer... and space [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Challenge accepted. Control or Synthesis it is. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 26 mars 2013 - 06:37 .

[CronoDragoon]

Xilizhra wrote...
It was an analogy to Adam; the only value dead body parts have is sentimental, unless they're organ donors (which... is kind of what they were in Adam's case). In the case of the Reapers, the problem is that they actually killed people themselves... but this was done under mind control, and the entity that was doing so is now dead, so basically, justice has already been served no matter what, with the puppeteer gone. Now all you have are the puppets, who undertook no actions of their own accord.

Punishing the offender does not encapsulate justice. If that were the case, you'd never get your property back in cases of theft.

[Samtheman63]

the reapers are nothing but advanced AIs with mashed up corpses inside them, nothing is preserved

the memories, culture and very existence of the people used to create the reapers is gone forever, because believe it or not killing someone then squashing their body means they are DEAD.

[Ryzaki]

Ugh Reapers. How do they work? How does organic slushies preserve memories. I mean...someone please explain how melting people into grey goo somehow preserves memory and culture.

And yeah I see Destroy as a mercy killing. Since I don't see the individuals that have become grey slushies as alive anymore and they're bodies are simply being used as tools a final mockery from those that eliminated them yeah I'll shoot that tube.

Just wish I didn't kill EDI and the Geth along with em.

[DarthRic]

Modifié par DarthRic, 26 mars 2013 - 10:00 .

[Sideria]

Samtheman63 wrote...

the reapers are nothing but advanced AIs with mashed up corpses inside them, nothing is preserved

the memories, culture and very existence of the people used to create the reapers is gone forever, because believe it or not killing someone then squashing their body means they are DEAD.

It's a destructive upload...
Just combine a technology similar to javik abilities to read memory through touch and the liquefaction process... and boom you have succesfull uploaded all an individual data into a computer.

Modifié par Sideria, 26 mars 2013 - 07:27 .

[Steelcan]

Sideria wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

the reapers are nothing but advanced AIs with mashed up corpses inside them, nothing is preserved

the memories, culture and very existence of the people used to create the reapers is gone forever, because believe it or not killing someone then squashing their body means they are DEAD.

It's a destructive upload...
Just combine a technology similar to javik abilities to read memory through touch and the liquefaction process... and boom you have succesfull uploaded all an individual data into computer.

. It's just as lLimey that the individuals are gone

[Sideria]

(I didn't get the word lLimey, it is a typo ?)

On the topic of individuals, my interpretation is that during the upload process, the DNA is an uniq ID that allow to upload the data into the right "folder" representing one individual.
Now all you have to do is to load this data into a synthetic brain emulator and to create a network between all of them to create a new entity.

It's a plausible theory to explain legion sentence : "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies."

But I don't recall anything in the game to invalidate or confirm that.

Modifié par Sideria, 26 mars 2013 - 07:47 .

[Reorte]

Sideria wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

the reapers are nothing but advanced AIs with mashed up corpses inside them, nothing is preserved

the memories, culture and very existence of the people used to create the reapers is gone forever, because believe it or not killing someone then squashing their body means they are DEAD.

It's a destructive upload...
Just combine a technology similar to javik abilities to read memory through touch and the liquefaction process... and boom you have succesfull uploaded all an individual data into a computer.

I can only barely tolerate Javik's touch thing because it has no real impact on the overall setting. If something similar was a key part of the Reaper story then I wouldn't be able to swallow that. Mash someone up and they're dead, end of.

[Sideria]

Reorte wrote...

I can only barely tolerate Javik's touch thing because it has no real impact on the overall setting. If something similar was a key part of the Reaper story then I wouldn't be able to swallow that. Mash someone up and they're dead, end of.

Yet it's not a new concept in Science-Fiction, see Genetic Memory. The collector base and the human proto reaper made no sense if you dismiss that.
Even the Prothean beacon is a technological extension of this concept.

[Alienboy411676]

I still don't understand why this topic is such a big debate.  That there are people who actually sit in these forums DEFENDING the Reapers, is beyond my comprehension.  If you don't mind me adding my two cents...

Look at it from a realistic, logical point of view: 

You are Shepard.  
Your first intell on the Reapers (in ME1) is that they wipe out space-faring organic life every so often.
Your first meet-up with a Reaper (Sovereign), the Reaper does nothing but trash talk organics and then tries to kill you.  
In ME2, you find out the Collectors are abducting people against their will.  
The Collectors constantly attack you.
More trash talk from another Reaper (Harbinger)
Then you discover the Collectors are liquifying humans so the Reapers may create another Reaper.  
This "human" Reaper attempts to kill you.  
In ME3, the Reapers attack every major space-faring power in the galaxy, annihilating them or indoctrinating them to annihilate more.  
Then the ending comes, and in the last 5 minutes of the game, you get the Crucible to the Citadel and you're about to put an end to the Reapers when all of a sudden Mr. "Catalyst" shows up and says "Oh, no, no, we're not bad, we're just trying to save you...promise."  

Now, are you seriously telling me that after everything Shepard has been through up to those last 5 minutes of ME3, that he should stop and go, "Oh, I'm so sorry Mr. Controller of Galactic Genocide, I guess you're actually 
Mr. Rainbows and Skittles Savior after all.  Of course I won't destroy your giant killer squid machines now that I know they're run by this magical "liquid consciousness" that has no scientific basis in reality.  You say my only two other options (Synthesis and Control) both involve me dying? Well, sure! Thanks for all that enlightening information that conveniently just saved you from me blowing you all to hell.  I'm gonna go jump off this ledge now and kill myself!"

...Sorry, but my Shepard, and any other Shepard who'd made it that far in the war against the Reapers, would give Space Boy and his bull**** story the finger and blow them all to hell.  

[Auld Wulf]

Steelcan wrote...

For one user, I think so.

 >_>

If you're referring to me, then I guess you've completely missed the campaigning I've done for Reaper rights.

It's an easy thing to miss, I guess.

It's okay.

[Auintus]

Alienboy411676 wrote...

...Sorry, but my Shepard, and any other Shepard who'd made it that far in the war against the Reapers, would give Space Boy and his bull**** story the finger and blow them all to hell.  

Your data is biased. Not personally, everyone who played the game only saw the human's side of the issue. The Reapers don't care to explain their intentions until the variables have changed enough to make it worthwhile. Their "salvation" wasn't anything that anyone would accept willingly. Once the situation changed, the Reaper's leader offers a method of peace. Hell, it tells you how to destroy them, if you really want to.
The Reapers fall under the Well-Intentioned Extremist. Good ideals, bad methods. Unfortuanately, until the Crucible is docked, the Intelligence was unable to find another way.

[Giantdeathrobot]

A short chat with Harbinger or Sovereign is more than enough to know that nothing remains of the harvested civilizations. They form some sort of gestalt intelligence who follows the Catalyst's will. They're ''preserved'' in the same way the food I eat is ''preserved'' when it turns into the various proteins that sustain me.

Besides, I've almost never seen anyone pull the ''mercy'' card. OP seems to attack a strawman of sorts, because almost all justifications for Destroy I saw had either justice or caution in them.

[Phatose]

Alienboy411676 wrote...

I still don't understand why this topic is such a big debate.  That there are people who actually sit in these forums DEFENDING the Reapers, is beyond my comprehension.  If you don't mind me adding my two cents...

Look at it from a realistic, logical point of view: 

You are Shepard.  
Your first intell on the Reapers (in ME1) is that they wipe out space-faring organic life every so often.
Your first meet-up with a Reaper (Sovereign), the Reaper does nothing but trash talk organics and then tries to kill you.  
In ME2, you find out the Collectors are abducting people against their will.  
The Collectors constantly attack you.
More trash talk from another Reaper (Harbinger)
Then you discover the Collectors are liquifying humans so the Reapers may create another Reaper.  
This "human" Reaper attempts to kill you.  
In ME3, the Reapers attack every major space-faring power in the galaxy, annihilating them or indoctrinating them to annihilate more.  
Then the ending comes, and in the last 5 minutes of the game, you get the Crucible to the Citadel and you're about to put an end to the Reapers when all of a sudden Mr. "Catalyst" shows up and says "Oh, no, no, we're not bad, we're just trying to save you...promise."  

Now, are you seriously telling me that after everything Shepard has been through up to those last 5 minutes of ME3, that he should stop and go, "Oh, I'm so sorry Mr. Controller of Galactic Genocide, I guess you're actually 
Mr. Rainbows and Skittles Savior after all.  Of course I won't destroy your giant killer squid machines now that I know they're run by this magical "liquid consciousness" that has no scientific basis in reality.  You say my only two other options (Synthesis and Control) both involve me dying? Well, sure! Thanks for all that enlightening information that conveniently just saved you from me blowing you all to hell.  I'm gonna go jump off this ledge now and kill myself!"

...Sorry, but my Shepard, and any other Shepard who'd made it that far in the war against the Reapers, would give Space Boy and his bull**** story the finger and blow them all to hell.  

Well, apparently unlike Modin, you can ignore new data.

[Alienboy411676]

Auintus wrote...

Alienboy411676 wrote...

...Sorry, but my Shepard, and any other Shepard who'd made it that far in the war against the Reapers, would give Space Boy and his bull**** story the finger and blow them all to hell.  

Your data is biased. Not personally, everyone who played the game only saw the human's side of the issue. The Reapers don't care to explain their intentions until the variables have changed enough to make it worthwhile. Their "salvation" wasn't anything that anyone would accept willingly. Once the situation changed, the Reaper's leader offers a method of peace. Hell, it tells you how to destroy them, if you really want to.
The Reapers fall under the Well-Intentioned Extremist. Good ideals, bad methods. Unfortuanately, until the Crucible is docked, the Intelligence was unable to find another way.

I think you're missing my point.  

My point was that, after all the bad blood between Shepard and the Reapers, why would Shepard, or any half-way intelligent person, believe anything the leader of their enemy is saying when they provide no discernable proof, and then decide to save their enemy by killing themselves?   

Just imagine it.  You've been chasing someone who has been trying to kill you and everyone you know for 3 years, and then when you finally have a gun to their head and are about to pull the trigger, they say "I've been trying to save you this whole time! If you go jump off that cliff and kill yourself right now, then it will all end and everyone is saved."  ...I mean really, would you seriously jump off the cliff?  

This entire debate about the Reapers carrying the consciousness of past races...I mean...really??  Are you saying that with absolutely no scientific data, no proof at all, to back it up, you would believe them and kill yourself?   How convenient for the Reapers.  I personally sincerely hope that no one that dense will ever decide mine or the galaxy's fate in real life.  I don't care how you look at it, what the Reapers are doing is wrong.  Even IF we elect to believe this nonsense you guys argue about the Reapers carrying the consciousness of past races, even IF some of those races would have willingly chosen to live out their existence as a Reaper.  It is FACT that in order for the Reapers to carry out this supposed "preservation" they have to kill billions who are never added to a Reaper in the process.  Billions who are MURDERED, not liquified to some magic immortal liquid consciousness.  If you have to kill billions of innocents to "save" billions of others, IT IS THE WRONG WAY TO DO IT.  You find another way, BEFORE murdering billions in hundreds of cycles, not after.   

[Astartes Marine]

Auld Wulf wrote...
completely missed the campaigning I've done for Reaper rights.

I don't think a soul in this universe could miss your sympathy towards the enemy.<_<

[TheProtheans]

The Reaper do not have freedom, either the Catalsyt or Shepard controls them.
Suppression is not preferable to obliteration, Destroy is the only solution.
Give them the freedom they deserve, they're merely relics of their former self turned in abominations they're an insult to their own races.
Death is the freedom they deserve.


As for synthesis, turning everyone in abominations and destroying culture and freedom and the progression of the galaxy is no better than the what the Catalyst did.
If your Shepard chose Synthesis then your Shepard was an idiot.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 26 mars 2013 - 09:24 .