445 réponses à ce sujet

[RocketManSR2]

Are the Reapers culturally dead? Mordin said destroying the Collectors was an act of mercy because they were dead already. The question is, do the civilizations that make up each individual Reaper still have their culture in tact in some way? Otherwise the Reapers are nothing but the husks of entire civilizations.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 26 mars 2013 - 09:24 .

[ForThessia]

Uhhh, I don't really care if the Reapers are an entire race or just goo. They're despicable and deserve to be destroyed.

[Steelcan]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Are the Reapers culturally dead? Mordin said destroying the Collectors was an act of mercy because they were dead already. The question is, do the civilizations that make up each individual Reaper still have their culture in tact in some way? Otherwise the Reapers are nothing but the husks of entire civilizations.

. That depends on who you ask.

[Reorte]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Are the Reapers culturally dead? Mordin said destroying the Collectors was an act of mercy because they were dead already. The question is, do the civilizations that make up each individual Reaper still have their culture in tact in some way? Otherwise the Reapers are nothing but the husks of entire civilizations.

The way they act suggests that they're not much better than that. They've probably got the record of their parent civilisation but it's about as alive as them lugging around with them a bunch of books with it written down.

[KENNY4753]

imo destroying the Collector base is 100 times more of a mercy-killing than picking destroy. With the collector base you yourselves might now somebody killed there (Kelly and the rest of the crew). If not you still know that somebody somewhere is devasted by the loss of a loved one.

imo destroying the Reapers is not about mercy at all. Not for the Reapers and not for the races they harvested. I always choose destroy bc it was what we were fighting to do since ME1.

[JShepppp]

I agree with the OP. I would like to humbly add the following:

1. We know nothing of what it's like to "be" a Reaper. We only know the process of BECOMING a Reaper is horrible; we know nothing of how it is after the process is over.

2. We know that human desires are so diverse that it is POSSIBLE that some humans may want to continue living for fear of death.

3. Aliens have completely DIFFERENT desires from humans and completely different societies. For example, the Quarians are focused 100% on the collective and not the individual. The Geth are similar but for different reasons.

4. Synthetics ALSO get turned into Reapers - we know NOTHING of how the process of becoming a Reaper is like for them, and nothing of how life as a Reaper is for them, and nothing about whether or not any of those steps are different from organics'.

5. It is HIGHLY LIKELY that aliens with DIFFERENT VALUES and DESIRES would want to continue living for reasons that are NOTHING like we have considered; they think differently because they are alien.

If you take the above to be true, then the OP's statement regarding mercy killings makes sense: we DO NOT KNOW if ALL, SOME, or NONE of the races would want to continue to live. Emotional reasoning does not play a role because of the differences between aliens. Because we don't know about everyone, we cannot say it is a mercy killing.

[JShepppp]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Are the Reapers culturally dead? Mordin said destroying the Collectors was an act of mercy because they were dead already. The question is, do the civilizations that make up each individual Reaper still have their culture in tact in some way? Otherwise the Reapers are nothing but the husks of entire civilizations.

Synthesis ending post-EC and Catalyst dialogue (which is supported by the former) say that they retain the essence of their civilizations, which includes the way they think, their social values, language, culture, etc.

[Auintus]

Alienboy411676 wrote...

This entire debate about the Reapers carrying the consciousness of past races...I mean...really??  Are you saying that with absolutely no scientific data, no proof at all, to back it up, you would believe them and kill yourself?   How convenient for the Reapers.  I personally sincerely hope that no one that dense will ever decide mine or the galaxy's fate in real life.  I don't care how you look at it, what the Reapers are doing is wrong.  Even IF we elect to believe this nonsense you guys argue about the Reapers carrying the consciousness of past races, even IF some of those races would have willingly chosen to live out their existence as a Reaper.  It is FACT that in order for the Reapers to carry out this supposed "preservation" they have to kill billions who are never added to a Reaper in the process.  Billions who are MURDERED, not liquified to some magic immortal liquid consciousness.  If you have to kill billions of innocents to "save" billions of others, IT IS THE WRONG WAY TO DO IT.  You find another way, BEFORE murdering billions in hundreds of cycles, not after.   

Yes, really.
They couldn't find another way in time. The Reapers were created to preserve the culture, not the people, of each cycle so that it wouldn't be lost completely to buy the Intelligence time to find a more permanent solution. What the Inteligence failed to understand, in a display of Leviathan-like ego, is that it would need the cooperation of the individuals to put together a permanent solution, like Synthesis. It failed when forced, but the ego of the Inteligence prevented it from understanding that it could succeed with the help of those it was trying to preserve.

Yes, the Reapers do terrible things. If we willingly submitted to the harvest, those billions wouldn't die. The analogy of a burning fire is brought up. The Reapers don't care to kill, they only want the harvest. People are fighting back, so war ensues.
Does that mean we should lay down and die? No, the harvest is a bad thing. However, when the Catalyst is finally introduced to another method, it willingly suggests a ceasefire, with terms that both complete its original programing and benefit the surviving races. I chose to take that suggestion.

[Reorte]

JShepppp wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Are the Reapers culturally dead? Mordin said destroying the Collectors was an act of mercy because they were dead already. The question is, do the civilizations that make up each individual Reaper still have their culture in tact in some way? Otherwise the Reapers are nothing but the husks of entire civilizations.

Synthesis ending post-EC and Catalyst dialogue (which is supported by the former) say that they retain the essence of their civilizations, which includes the way they think, their social values, language, culture, etc.

As bare records perhaps. Since for the vast majority of civilisations actually having the Reaper acting in some way consistent with its civilisation would run rather contrary to it actually being a Reaper it's wildly implausible that it's part of their conciousness. It would be an idiotic way of building one for starters - why have to keep suppressing it and running the risk of it going rogue if you don't have to? Mind you common sense went rather out of the window so stupid things happening in ME3 are always possible.

[essarr71]

Auintus wrote...

Does that mean we should lay down and die? No, the harvest is a bad thing. However, when the Catalyst is finally introduced to another method, it willingly suggests a ceasefire, with terms that both complete its original programing and benefit the surviving races. I chose to take that suggestion.

Except he allows the Crucible to be destroyed if he has to wait like a minute.

[Auintus]

essarr71 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Does that mean we should lay down and die? No, the harvest is a bad thing. However, when the Catalyst is finally introduced to another method, it willingly suggests a ceasefire, with terms that both complete its original programing and benefit the surviving races. I chose to take that suggestion.

Except he allows the Crucible to be destroyed if he has to wait like a minute.

So it's not very patient. If I killed everyone who rushed me, I'd have no friends.

Seriously, though, I think it mispoke when it said that it controlled the Reapers. They clearly have their own minds. The Catalyst gives them direction, but can't pull them to a grinding halt whenever it wants.

That, or it figures that if you are that indecisive in the middle of a battle that you are currently losing, you really shouldn't be running things.

Maybe none of these. It could just be his nature.

[Auld Wulf]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Are the Reapers culturally dead? Mordin said destroying the Collectors was an act of mercy because they were dead already. The question is, do the civilizations that make up each individual Reaper still have their culture in tact in some way? Otherwise the Reapers are nothing but the husks of entire civilizations.

The Synthesis ending states that the collective knowledge of all the cultures and peoples stored within the Reapers is shared. So yes, it's all there.

[Auld Wulf]

ForThessia wrote...

Uhhh, I don't really care if the Reapers are an entire race or just goo. They're despicable and deserve to be destroyed.

It's nice to see someone being honestly Reaper-racist for a change instead of coming up with ridiculous justifications. I don't agree with your viewpoint, but I do appreciate that you're not lying about it.

[Auld Wulf]

Steelcan wrote...

That depends on who you ask.

If you want an honest answer, yes. The honest answer is the Synthesis ending, which tells you that the knowledge of the various cultures is preserved.

Honest question: Have you ever watched the Synthesis ending?

[essarr71]

Auintus wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Does that mean we should lay down and die? No, the harvest is a bad thing. However, when the Catalyst is finally introduced to another method, it willingly suggests a ceasefire, with terms that both complete its original programing and benefit the surviving races. I chose to take that suggestion.

Except he allows the Crucible to be destroyed if he has to wait like a minute.

So it's not very patient. If I killed everyone who rushed me, I'd have no friends.

Seriously, though, I think it mispoke when it said that it controlled the Reapers. They clearly have their own minds. The Catalyst gives them direction, but can't pull them to a grinding halt whenever it wants.

That, or it figures that if you are that indecisive in the middle of a battle that you are currently losing, you really shouldn't be running things.

Maybe none of these. It could just be his nature.

If you say he doesn't control the Reapers - which makes sense in the story - then the idea that the harvested are, at best, enslaved minds, must be concluded.  If they're alive, then they have no relevence to the Reapers.  If they're aware, then it's pure torture.

[JasonShepard]

Auintus wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Auintus wrote...

Does that mean we should lay down and die? No, the harvest is a bad thing. However, when the Catalyst is finally introduced to another method, it willingly suggests a ceasefire, with terms that both complete its original programing and benefit the surviving races. I chose to take that suggestion.

Except he allows the Crucible to be destroyed if he has to wait like a minute.

So it's not very patient. If I killed everyone who rushed me, I'd have no friends.

Seriously, though, I think it mispoke when it said that it controlled the Reapers. They clearly have their own minds. The Catalyst gives them direction, but can't pull them to a grinding halt whenever it wants.

That, or it figures that if you are that indecisive in the middle of a battle that you are currently losing, you really shouldn't be running things.

Maybe none of these. It could just be his nature.

I reckon it controls the Reapers the same way anyone is controlled in this series - Indoctrination. There's some vague in-game evidence for this - at Sanctuary, TIM, having sussed out the Reaper signal, believes he can use it to Control entire Reapers and not just foot-soldiers, which makes a bit more sense if you think of the Reapers as already indoctrinated (and really, I can't see any other way that a culture would be happy about being melted down and stuffed in a giant battle-ship exoskeleton).

As for why the Crucible gets destroyed if you wait too long or why the Catalyst doesn't call an immediate ceasefire while Shepard makes up his/her mind - I headcanon that the Crucible is blocking the Catalyst's control signal, so the Reapers are just following their last directive. So they carry on fighting the allied forces and eventually blow up the Crucible, even though the Catalyst would prefer it to be used. (Also explains the Catalyst's constant references to running out of time.) I'm told that Catalyst dialogue in the original script supported this theory.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 27 mars 2013 - 12:43 .

[Slayer299]

@Auld Wulf - Do you actually thnk about what you're saying or just decide to post nonsense like "reaper-racist" without any thought at all? Because, really....'reaper-racist'?? That is just too funny/sad/weird, the idea that people are discriminating against them for no good reason. You know, the REAPERS, the ones that have destroyed countless trillions of lives over the last few billion years, because its not like the Reapers actually *did* anything wrong...right??

edit - name

Modifié par Slayer299, 27 mars 2013 - 12:36 .

[Auintus]

essarr71 wrote...

If you say he doesn't control the Reapers - which makes sense in the story - then the idea that the harvested are, at best, enslaved minds, must be concluded.  If they're alive, then they have no relevence to the Reapers.  If they're aware, then it's pure torture.

Not quite. The Reapers are independent from the harvested, like a baby in a stroller. The stroller does not become the baby, it is not controlled by the baby. It is driven by something else. They are less enslaved and more stored, thoughts and memories. I think, following the "upload", for lack of a better word, they are similar to VIs, not truly aware, but capable of sharing knowledge.

Modifié par Auintus, 27 mars 2013 - 12:37 .

[Auintus]

JasonShepard wrote...

As for why the Crucible gets destroyed if you wait too long/why the Catalyst doesn't call an immediate ceasefire while Shepard makes up his/her mind - I headcanon that the Crucible is blocking the Catalyst's control signal, so the Reapers are just following their last directive. So they carry on fighting the allied forces and eventually blow up the Crucible, even though the Catalyst would prefer it to be used. (Also explains the Catalyst's constant references to running out of time.) I'm told that the original script supported this theory.

I thought that it was more the fact that the Reapers were built to harvest. They did not exist when the Catalyst was trying to find another solution. So they are aware of the harvest and what it entails, but the Catalyst does not control them to the degree that they can understand that their is another option available. Short story: They were told "Harvest," not "Preserve organic life." They are unaware of the larger goal. Disclaimer: This is all just speculation.

[Aaleel]

Wasn't mercy for me, it was capital punishment for the Gazillion people they killed over however long they've been doing this.

If each reaper is really a nation, independent, free of all weakness then they had full knowledge of what they were doing. Never bought the whole poor, innocent victims who didn't know what they were doing excuse.

Modifié par Aaleel, 27 mars 2013 - 12:45 .

[essarr71]

Auintus wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

If you say he doesn't control the Reapers - which makes sense in the story - then the idea that the harvested are, at best, enslaved minds, must be concluded.  If they're alive, then they have no relevence to the Reapers.  If they're aware, then it's pure torture.

Not quite. The Reapers are independent from the harvested, like a baby in a stroller. The stroller does not become the baby, it is not controlled by the baby. It is driven by something else. They are less enslaved and more stored, thoughts and memories. I think, following the "upload", for lack of a better word, they are similar to VIs, not truly aware, but capable of sharing knowledge.

I'd agree.  I figure the interaction is similar to what Javik experiences.  
But, if all they're carrying is an echo, the only loss is that of data.. not life.  In regard to the OP, anyone who holds, say, a history book as having a higher value than a civilization might need to be checked out.  What good is history if no one ever knows about it.  


It certainly backs up the idea of shared knowledge from Synthesis.. however, keep in mind that whatever knowedge thats gained is purely ancient history.  Who came first, etc..  All these cycles were reaped at the same technological point...  There won't be much new things to learn.. except maybe the rituals and customs of long gone societies.

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Argolas wrote...

About the actual topic: The Reapers are monsters, I don't care about a merciful "death" for them (I don't consider them alive). I do care about those who were harvested to become part of such an abomination.

Ah, finally, an admission. You're killing them because you don't understand them, and you hate what they represent. It's not a mercy killing, it's not a justice killing, it's a faith-/belief-/religion-based killing. And it's such a powerful feeling of disgust you have for them that you want to kill them without even talking to them first.

Interesting.

You're wrong. I always admitted that I don't consider a Reaper alive. Reapers have no evolution, no reproduction, nothing. They are constructs of the catalyst who merely serve a purpose and have shown in a very long time that they are unable to evolve beyond that (which makes them different from Geth who are able to act, think and evolve on their own which qualifies Geth as alive). Every Reaper you talk to, it does not matter if its their vanguard Souvereign, their old powerful "leader" Harbinger or a mere random Destroyer, spits the same sh!t at you. They are a set of tools, capable of acting but no more than a programmed robot and capable of talking but no more than an advanced version of Cleverbot.

Btw., here's a list what qualifies life in real world: (from wikipedia)

[*]Homeostasis:
Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state;
for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce
temperature.[*]Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells — the basic units of life.[*]Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.[*]Growth:
Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing
organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply
accumulating matter.[*]Adaptation: The ability to change over time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity, diet, and external factors.[*]Response to stimuli:
A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular
organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the
senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by
motion; for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism), and chemotaxis.[*]Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

Some of them are not met by both Geth and Reapers because they are synthetic and there is no synthetic life in real world, so that can be dismissed. The critical points, however, are 5 and 7. Unlike the Geth, Reapers are unable to adapt because what they are is never a response to their environment, they are always the exact same thing they were constructed to be. Also, Reapers are unable to reproduce, the actual reproduction is done by organics who are then "harvested" to become a new Reaper. This is a similar case to the difference why a Virus is not considered alive.

Modifié par Argolas, 27 mars 2013 - 01:00 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Alienboy411676 wrote...

Now, are you seriously telling me that after everything Shepard has been through up to those last 5 minutes of ME3, that he should stop and go, "Oh, I'm so sorry Mr. Controller of Galactic Genocide, I guess you're actually 
Mr. Rainbows and Skittles Savior after all.  Of course I won't destroy your giant killer squid machines now that I know they're run by this magical "liquid consciousness" that has no scientific basis in reality.  You say my only two other options (Synthesis and Control) both involve me dying? Well, sure! Thanks for all that enlightening information that conveniently just saved you from me blowing you all to hell.  I'm gonna go jump off this ledge now and kill myself!"

... annnd the Strawman Award of this thread goes to.....

ForThessia wrote...

Uhhh, I don't really care if the Reapers are an entire race or just goo. They're despicable and deserve to be destroyed.

'Thought I made it clear in the OP that this thread is a direct reponse for those who *do* care about this topic. Hmm.

Aaleel wrote...

Never bought the whole poor, innocent victims who didn't know what they were doing excuse.

Well, if one doesn't believe the canon, then I suppose they can believe literally anything they want to.

JShepppp wrote...

I agree with the OP. I would like to humbly add the following:

1. We know nothing of what it's like to "be" a Reaper. We only know the process of BECOMING a Reaper is horrible; we know nothing of how it is after the process is over.

2. We know that human desires are so diverse that it is POSSIBLE that some humans may want to continue living for fear of death.

3. Aliens have completely DIFFERENT desires from humans and completely different societies. For example, the Quarians are focused 100% on the collective and not the individual. The Geth are similar but for different reasons.

4. Synthetics ALSO get turned into Reapers - we know NOTHING of how the process of becoming a Reaper is like for them, and nothing of how life as a Reaper is for them, and nothing about whether or not any of those steps are different from organics'.

5. It is HIGHLY LIKELY that aliens with DIFFERENT VALUES and DESIRES would want to continue living for reasons that are NOTHING like we have considered; they think differently because they are alien.

If you take the above to be true, then the OP's statement regarding mercy killings makes sense: we DO NOT KNOW if ALL, SOME, or NONE of the races would want to continue to live. Emotional reasoning does not play a role because of the differences between aliens. Because we don't know about everyone, we cannot say it is a mercy killing.

You know, somewhere... deep in the depths of my brain... I was thinking along those lines when I posted this topic.

I just couldn't articulate it exactly quite as well as you did just now.

Kudos! 

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 27 mars 2013 - 12:56 .

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

That depends on who you ask.

If you want an honest answer, yes. The honest answer is the Synthesis ending, which tells you that the knowledge of the various cultures is preserved.

Honest question: Have you ever watched the Synthesis ending?

. That doesn't mean the individual people are preserved.

And yes I have.  EDI's narration gave me a headache

[Aaleel]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Never bought the whole poor, innocent victims who didn't know what they were doing excuse.

Well, if one doesn't believe the canon, then I suppose they can believe literally anything they want to.

Canon?  Is this a joke?  As much as the story contradicts itself, canon is pretty much what's happening in whichever of the three games you're playing at the time.

Modifié par Aaleel, 27 mars 2013 - 01:00 .