10 réponses à ce sujet

[Gorath Alpha]

Magnus of the Moon wrote...

Could someone please sticky this thread?! It's really important information.

I have a couple of questions about graphics cards and power.

Here are my specs
Intel Core duo 2 4300 1.8GHz
Windows Vista 32 bit (sp3)
4Gb (3.5 recognized)
GE Force 8400GS
1663 MB total graphics memory
256Mb Dedicated graphics memory

I
have been running the 8400GS for almost two years, no problems. I know
it's not a high end card, but it works fine for the type of
recreational gaming that I do for stress relief. I  received DA:O as a
Christmas gift. I installed it and it ran great for about two weeks.
Then I started getting driver errors, freezes and then black and blue
screen crashes, livekernalevent and nvlddmkm.sys and some other
things.  I removed the graphics card and uninstalled it in safe mode.
Rebooted and everything woked fine.

As a test, I re-installed
the card and all of the drivers. It worked fine, no problems. I updated
the graphics drivers, phsyx drivers and everything else I could think
of. A week later, I am having issues again. I would like to unistall
the card again and run driver sweeper. I am unsure how to safely
operate the sweeper. Can you, Gorath Graphics Card Guru, give me
details on how to do this, or point me to the thread they are already
in? I know I have seen the instructions somehwere else, but I cannot
locate them now.

Now my question about power. My PSU is rated
at 250W, but the card requires a minimum of 300W ( I am new to this
upgrading business and learning a lot). Previously this system was
working fine for nearly two years (until DA:O). Can someone explain to
me about the power supply, its ratings and what I can do to enhace it?
I have a Dell 530s (slim case) case so replacing the power is just
about impossible and as I understand it, the MOBO for the computer is
specific to this case , so I can't just move the whole thing into a new
case with the appropriate power supply.  If this last part is untrue,
let me know so I can look into that as an option.

I am asking
about the power because if my card is fried I would like to get a newer
more updated card, but the PSU may be a real problem.

Thank
you in advance for your assistance. And thank you Gorath, for all of
the information you have supplied on this foru thus far.

I thought that your query was a bit far afield from the purposes behind the Rankings thread (you might check the "Beam" article about video cards for one I would consider appropriate to the discussion).  Just enter beam into the forum's search. 

From the top, I am pretty sure that the old video card is just getting way too hot and the tiny little case just can't cool it enough.  I believe that you are wrong about throwing out the old case, but even if the MB has some really odd layout of mounting holes, I'd bet plenty that the more ordinary sized and shaped Dell cases will work, and you can get one for $5 from most any PC shop, maybe even free.  I throw a couple of them away every year or so, myself, and I'm not a pro, just the family system builder. 

There are quite a few half-height video cards with better cooling built into them, after you blow all the lint, dust bunnies, and spider webs out of the inside of the case, and they are actually designed to play games with, while that is certainly not true of an 8400 GS.  You would have to select a power-conservative card, if you kept that really awful little case, though. 

Here's one such right here, stateside for a very low cost:  www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx

Gorath

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 14 janvier 2010 - 11:15 .

[Magnus of the Moon]

Thank you for the information. I edited my original post so as not to clutter up your really great graphics card thread.

What about the power? How did my little 250W PSU operate all of this stuff in this little case? Do I really need to worry about upgrading it?

As for the case... Is it as simple as moving the components from one case to another? I have an old Dell Dimension that I could move all of the components into.

Can I modify this little case to draw more air into it? I was thinking about drilling some holes in the side where it could get some more air. I realize adding more holes means more dust. It is very clean inside there now as I have been caring for it in that manner. The computer is three years old so I don't have to worry about voiding any warranties or anything. I just don't want to kill my computer as I am not in a financial position to replace it.

In the future, I know never to buy a slim case ever again.

[Gorath Alpha]

Magnus of the Moon wrote...

Thank you for the information. I edited my original post so as not to clutter up your really great graphics card thread.

I appreciate the flattering comment, but I know that I wrote texts and other classroom materials so long that I end up writing and sounding like a lecturer in a college classroom (my last salaried position, teaching compuer subjects).

What about the power? How did my little 250W PSU operate all of this stuff in this little case? Do I really need to worry about upgrading it?

With their regular cases, and the power supplies inside those, Dell long made it their policy to over=specify, such that a Dell 250 "watt" PSU was as capable as most enyone else's 350.  I do not know if the same holds true with their so- small "slimline" case power supplies.  I have seen the equivalent from HP, and have NOT been impressed by their small cases' PSU quality.

As for the case... Is it as simple as moving the components from one case to another? I have an old Dell Dimension that I could move all of the components into.

Yes, it very well may be just that simple. 

Can I modify this little case to draw more air into it? I was thinking about drilling some holes in the side where it could get some more air. I realize adding more holes means more dust. It is very clean inside there now as I have been caring for it in that manner. The computer is three years old so I don't have to worry about voiding any warranties or anything. I just don't want to kill my computer as I am not in a financial position to replace it.

In the future, I know never to buy a slim case ever again.

Although I am the recognized family person to turn to in times of tight finances, my friends and relatives just keep on getting in a hurry when money is less tight, and buying almost whatever their impules lead them into, especially the several female cousins and neices, whose PC buying habits seem much more likely to match to the sterotypical "ditzy blonde" style, but so far, even those have had second thoughts about those tiny little cases from Dell, HP, & Sony (or never let me know about having done so). 

It is possible that the case could be modified enough to not be as restrictive as it is now, but if you really do have a case available from an older Dell model, the amount of effort involved will be less (in order to work on any of thiose cases, you have to go to a lot of trouble getting them all broken down to sufficiently separate parts (any hole drilling has to be carried out far-removed from the electronics for many reasons). 

Personally, I would take measurements of the mounting holes in the main cirecuit board (motherboard), and draw them up on something like filing folder stock, to see how the holes line up with an aftermarket case from some local seller in your area.  I think you would be much happier with the result. 

Just for your general information, here is a page full of very inexpensive aftermarket cases to look at:

www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx

Gorath
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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 15 janvier 2010 - 09:16 .

[Magnus of the Moon]

I appreciate that you are saying your "ditzy blond" cousins have more sense than not to purchase a slim case, but it was my first computer purchase. I have learned a great deal from the experience and won't go for it again.



I am going to measure the two cases that I have and see about moving the parts around. What about that "thermal compound" stuff? Do I need that?



I should have known when the game set all of the graphics settings to low that I shouldn't have messed with them. I burned up my little graphics card and could have burned up my computer. Oh, well. I'm looking at the Radeon HD 4650, that you suggested and some others.



Thanks a bunch.

[Gorath Alpha]

Unless the cooler's heat sink portion differs greatly from the size and type of cooler assembly used by the older Dimension case, you may be able to leave the heat sink in place, and never need to clean off the old thermoelectric paste.

There have been red heads in the family, but the only actual blondes are ones who have married in, so I was just using the airhead stereotype. I have a sister who is among those least likely to ever use logic . . we were both brown haired, mine the darker, now mine is the grayer of the two of us! (What hair I have left, I should say!)

[Magnus of the Moon]

I purchased a used Cooler Master Centurion 5 with a 380PSU for 20 bucks at Free Geek. I moved my insipron 503s into the case and it is running beautifully. I can't connect the fire wire for the case and some of the extra gadgets due to the proprietary mother board, but all of the essential are up and running. It has two internal fans. It is quiet and running very nicely.

Next up, a real gaiming video card. Unemployment has it's disadvantages so I am looking very budget. Is it worth it to look at older generation cards? Like the GeForce 6600GT or the 8600GT?
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx
www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx

What about the Radeon 4560 HD? www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx

What about BFG and Power Color as brands?

Is there much difference in the manufacturers after the initial Nvidia or ATI chip developement?

Thanks

[Gorath Alpha]

BFG is an excellent brand, although I cannot say the same for Power Color. There are generally only moderate differences among the brands with the best ones being obviously higher quality overall, and offering lifetime guarantees (BFG and eVGA, both of which are exclusively nVIDIA partners, are selling similar quality parts for similar prices and offering similar guarantees).

I bought a Centurionm CAC 5 myself, about four years ago, and liked it very well.  I have held pnto it while I let others go, since it was new.  Now, my daughter in law wants one for herself on her next PC (I loaned here a machine while working on her old one, and she didn't really want to give it back, she liked its looks and speed so much). 

By now, the 6600 GT is just way too old, and shouldn't be considered to be a useful purchase, while the Geforce 8600 GT, and the Radion opposite number, HD 3650, are still relatively decent.  The differences among brands are primarily quality issues, and the guarantees that brands such as eVGA and BFG offer reflect that difference.  


The HD 4650 is better than the 8600 GT, and the Geforce GT240 is better than both of the older ones (I think it's better than the HD4650; I don't think it beats the HD 4670).

Remember, it is the "hundreds" digit that needs to be a "6", not the tens digit.  There is an HD 4550, which for a game player, isn't quite good enough, and there is also an HD 4650, which is very good for the price.  The comparable Geforce is the GT240.  If that $50 price for the HD 4650 is your tarhet, get this one instead of the Power Color, and redeem the mail in rebate, then they will cost the same, and the Gigabyte is the better made of the two. 

www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx

G

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 28 février 2010 - 09:42 .

[Magnus of the Moon]

I had been looking at that Gigabyte card. Thank you.



Why is that that the 200 series cards from Nvidia don't follow the n600 rule? They have put out 200, 210, 220... but the 240 is where the gaming cards begin. None have a "6" in the hundredth place.



And what about DirectX? If a card or OS is DX 10 or 11 compatible, are they also backward compatible?

[Gorath Alpha]

Magnus of the Moon wrote...

I had been looking at that Gigabyte card. Thank you.

Why is that that the 200 series cards from Nvidia don't follow the n600 rule? They have put out 200, 210, 220... but the 240 is where the gaming cards begin. None have a "6" in the hundredth place.

And what about DirectX? If a card or OS is DX 10 or 11 compatible, are they also backward compatible?

The hardware works fine with prior Direct3D APIs, yes.  Games aren't as forgiving, though.  When they want Dx9, generally speaking, they won't play with a PC running only Dx10. 

I'm not privy to nVIDIA's naming process reasonong.  It took me several years to understand the old system, with the old suffixes trailing behind, but they obviously didn't want to go from 9n00 to 10n00, and ATI had already dropped suffixes from the HD 3n00s onward, using the tens instead, which nVIDIA chose not to copy. 

The GT230 is "supposed" to fit into the Mainline ranks, but I ranked it down closer to the borderline zone, nearer to the Low End to Mainline break, with various three year old Mediums.  The GT240 fits in very solidly into / among current Mainline Mediums' ranks (I didn't like the way I wrote that, but now I am looking at it in edit, I'm not sure how or what I should've said, instead, sorry). 

Between the 200s and the Fermis (end of March), they have stuck in at least one other 200-based card, a 310, that I'm not ranking in my lists at all (too slow).  The High End Fermis will be 400s.

Gorath
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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 01 mars 2010 - 10:21 .

[Magnus of the Moon]

Thank you again. Good to know about the direct x business.



Another question... What are "stream processors"? Older cards have values around 32 while some newer cards have values like 82 or 320. What do these values indicate? I assume I want a card with higher values?

[Gorath Alpha]

nVIDIA uses that term, and here is what someone (maybe several someones) had to say at Wikipedia:

"Stream Processing and General Purpose GPUs (GPGPU)
Main articles: GPGPU and Stream processing

"A new concept is to use a general purpose graphics processing unit as a modified form of stream processor. This concept turns the massive floating-point computational power of a modern graphics accelerator's shader pipeline into general-purpose computing power, as opposed to being hard wired solely to do graphical operations. In certain applications requiring massive vector operations, this can yield several orders of magnitude higher performance than a conventional CPU. The two largest discrete (see "Dedicated graphics cards" above) GPU designers, ATI and NVIDIA, are beginning to pursue this new approach with an array of applications. Both nVidia and ATI have teamed with Stanford University to create a GPU-based client for the Folding@Home distributed computing project, for protein folding calculations. In certain circumstances the GPU calculates forty times faster than the conventional CPUs traditionally used by such applications.[10][11]

"Recently NVidia began releasing cards supporting an API extension to the C programming language CUDA ("Compute Unified Device Architecture"), which allows specified functions from a normal C program to run on the GPU's stream processors. This makes C programs capable of taking advantage of a GPU's ability to operate on large matrices in parallel, while still making use of the CPU when appropriate. CUDA is also the first API to allow CPU-based applications to access directly the resources of a GPU for more general purpose computing without the limitations of using a graphics API.

"Since 2005 there has been interest in using the performance offered by GPUs for evolutionary computation in general, and for accelerating the fitness evaluation in genetic programming in particular. There is a short introduction on pages 90–92 of A Field Guide To Genetic Programming. Most approaches compile linear or tree programs on the host PC and transfer the executable to the GPU to be run. Typically the performance advantage is only obtained by running the single active program simultaneously on many example problems in parallel, using the GPU's SIMD architecture[12][13]. However, substantial acceleration can also be obtained by not compiling the programs, and instead transferring them to the GPU, to be interpreted there[14][15]. Acceleration can then be obtained by either interpreting multiple programs simultaneously, simultaneously running multiple example problems, or combinations of both. A modern GPU (e.g. 8800 GTX or later) can readily simultaneously interpret hundreds of thousands of very small programs."

nVIDIA is not partnered closely with any CPU producer, and a potentially disruptive development could leave them without nearly as much of a market to sell into.  Both AMD and Intel want to go beyond the onboard video concept and beyond the separate video processor add-on card concept into an "APU" area, combining CPU and GPU into a single device.  Intel is even selling a variety of the idea already, but it isn't a full-power "GPU", only the same old Intel "GMA" design, riding along inside of the CPU packaging, not integrated into the CPU. 

Somrthing called Sandy Bridge is next, supposedly with a full-power video graphics device simmilar to the Larrabee project that was cancelled recently.  AMD will probably be more successful with the idea at first.  If it catches on, it may totally upset the current Mainline Gaming market (the High End of video is less profitable because of smaller sales numbers, but is likely to be affected to a much smaller degree -- similarly, the low end, with the current type IGPs, and low quality add-on cards, probably will continue in roughly the same manner as today).  nVIDIA wants to sell GPUs to compete with CPUs, and is emphasizing that capability in their Fermi designs.

Gorath
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Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 01 mars 2010 - 07:07 .