101 réponses à ce sujet

[Urgon]

MerinTB wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm suprised they even have a console RPG list.

I also find it interesting that they talk about the decline of the RPG in the late '90s, and hold up BG as an example of the start of that decline, and yet they hardly have any earlier games on their list. Why not Wasteland? Or Wizard's Crown? Or any Ultima game? It's like NMA took over RPG Codex and turned it into a Fallout fansite.

Very much this.  I've never really frequented RPG Codex, honestly, so I don't have a feel for them.  I know the reputation (infamy?) they have in some circles... and I've had negative experiences with some of their more ardent members elsewhere... but I did use to visit NMA quite a bit and when Fallout 3 came out their vitriol drove me away from there.

That list does read like the NMA people's wish list.

Also, as much as I love Icewind Dale and Fallout and definitely Bloodlines, the cRPGs of the pre-90's were better overall IMO (like Wasteland, Wizard's Crown, Knights of Legend, the Phantasies, the Bard's Tales, and of course the Gold Box games.)

RPG Codex is more or less a direct descendant of the Black Isle fandom of the late 90s and early 2000s.(Fallout 1 included in this) Many members have played the older games, but for them as a whole the RPG genre peaked with late 90', early 00' games. After the dissolving of Troika, RPGs have gone downhill.
Regardless if you agree with them or not, they know their RPGs, know what they like and is one of the most critical sites out there. I have never seen a review of them where they are bashing a game without them giving their reasons. They always have well thought arguments, so even when i disagree with them i can understand where they come from.

Modifié par Urgon, 26 mars 2013 - 08:57 .

[The Hierophant]

happy_daiz wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I was happy to see Demon's Souls - I loved that game. Everyone knows about Dark Souls, but Demon's Souls is where it's at for me.

Agreed. My first playthrough of Demon's Souls was like a kick in teeth. I'll never forget Flame Lurker, the gargoyle twins, Old King Doran, and the imposter of King Allant.

Oh, yeah. And those manta ray things (I guess they're called 'storm beasts'). I remember being really creeped out by the mindflayers in the Tower of Latria. I can't tell you how many times I died by their hands. Eventually I figured out how to get past them safely, but wow.

One of my favorite bosses was Yurt, the Silent Chief. Or maybe it was his Gloom Armor.

That whole game was revolutionary and beautiful. Even the load screens. Years later, my husband and I still find ways to interject quotes from the game (mostly from the Maiden in Black - I'm sure you know the one, and the crow).

Not only were the mindflayers creepy but  also the design of all the levels in the Tower of Latria, as they were nearly pitch black , had hidden pit falls, and the pc must travel across thin bridges that are suspended hundreds of feet in the air while battling gargoyles.

I got lucky with killing Yurt after freeing him as i found out later that he murders the npcs. Yurt's armor was cool looking and is superior to the fluted armor in elemental resistance, but i loved the way the fluted set looked. Since my pc build was a spellsword i would wear the fluted set, equip Ostrava's sword and shield to make my pc a spitting image of him. I would switch out his gear for moon weaponry during an invasion or boss fight. 

The crow was annoying as there's only so many times i can endure hearing twinkly sparkly, plus lulz at the Black Maiden's demon line.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 26 mars 2013 - 09:43 .

[MerinTB]

Urgon wrote...
RPG Codex is more or less a direct descendant of the Black Isle fandom of the late 90s and early 2000s.(Fallout 1 included in this) Many members have played the older games, but for them as a whole the RPG genre peaked with late 90', early 00' games. After the dissolving of Troika, RPGs have gone downhill.
Regardless if you agree with them or not, they know their RPGs, know what they like and is one of the most critical sites out there. I have never seen a review of them where they are bashing a game without them giving their reasons. They always have well thought arguments, so even when i disagree with them i can understand where they come from.

Don't get me wrong, I was a big fan of Black Isle Studios.  And Troika.  And I am a huge fan of Obsidian as a result.

But there are things about non-Black Isle Interplay cRPGs and the SSI ones, plus a handful of other series that came prior, that did stuff that the late 90's crowd had lost.

Wasteland 2, for me, is greater than Project Eternity, which is greater than Torment: Tides of Numenera.  Just as Wasteland was greater than Icewind Dale which was greater than Planescape: Torment, again for me. 

[wsandista]

Meh. Not very surprising. Felt more like "the usual suspects" than a well thought out and original list.

[Sylvius the Mad]

simfamSP wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm suprised they even have a console RPG list.

I also find it interesting that they talk about the decline of the RPG in the late '90s, and hold up BG as an example of the start of that decline, and yet they hardly have any earlier games on their list. Why not Wasteland? Or Wizard's Crown? Or any Ultima game? It's like NMA took over RPG Codex and turned it into a Fallout fansite.

Sylvius, did you enjoy the Temple of Elemental Evil's combat system? A random question out of nowhere, I know, but you feel that turn-based is superior, and I find it tedious as hell. However, ToEE's combat system was some of the most fun I've had with combat.

For the record, I prefer Real-Time-with-Pause to Turn-Based (because RTwP is a sort of analog turn-based, so it's just turn-based with finer controls), though Turn-Based is still terrific, and vastly better than any sort of twitch combat.

And, yes, I quite liked ToEE, though I wish they'd chosen a different classic Greyhawk module on which to base their game.  There really isn't much to the Temple of Elemental Evil.  It's only one step up from the Tomb of Horrors (I am very glad they didn't do the Tomb of Horrors).  But I would rather they'd done Descent into the Depths of the Earth, or The Fate of Istus, or Scourge of the Slave Lords.

And I've always wanted to see a CRPG conversion of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.

[slimgrin]

I'm surprised they included anything that wasn't an infinity engine game.

[mickey111]

Agreed with what Urgon said at the top of the page. It is rare and refreshing to see the RPG codex brand of journalism in these times where journalism is mostly either full of **** or full of spoilers.

slimgrin wrote...

I'm surprised they included anything that wasn't an infinity engine game.

Then you don't know them very well.

[Vaeliorin]

simfamSP wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'm suprised they even have a console RPG list.

I also find it interesting that they talk about the decline of the RPG in the late '90s, and hold up BG as an example of the start of that decline, and yet they hardly have any earlier games on their list. Why not Wasteland? Or Wizard's Crown? Or any Ultima game? It's like NMA took over RPG Codex and turned it into a Fallout fansite.

Sylvius, did you enjoy the Temple of Elemental Evil's combat system? A random question out of nowhere, I know, but you feel that turn-based is superior, and I find it tedious as hell. However, ToEE's combat system was some of the most fun I've had with combat.

For the record, I prefer Real-Time-with-Pause to Turn-Based (because RTwP is a sort of analog turn-based, so it's just turn-based with finer controls), though Turn-Based is still terrific, and vastly better than any sort of twitch combat.

And, yes, I quite liked ToEE, though I wish they'd chosen a different classic Greyhawk module on which to base their game.  There really isn't much to the Temple of Elemental Evil.  It's only one step up from the Tomb of Horrors (I am very glad they didn't do the Tomb of Horrors).  But I would rather they'd done Descent into the Depths of the Earth, or The Fate of Istus, or Scourge of the Slave Lords.

And I've always wanted to see a CRPG conversion of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.

Oh, damn. Maybe it was someone else?

Well, thanks for answering the question, Sylvius. As for the Greyhawk setting, tbh, I'm not too familiar with it outside ToEE, so I can't say much about it.

It might have been me.  Regardless, I love everything about ToEE's combat except for the fact that it uses 3.X D&D.  If it had been a system that wasn't so heavily favored towards magic users, I'd have loved it completely.  Heck, if ToEE hadn't been the buggy mess it was/is (even with the Co8 mod I find it buggy) it would probably be one of my favorite games ever.

That said, a cRPG conversion of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks would be awesome.  Heck, half the reason I bought ToEE was because if it was successful they were supposedly going to do Against the Giants next, and that's one of my favorite adventures ever (mostly because of fond memories, though...I still remember my ranger losing an eye to an ogress with a fork...and the DM randomly rolling and me ending up with a broadsword of giant slaying...who would ever make such a thing in 2E?)

That said, I can't really complain about the list, even if I'm not as big a Fallout fan as the Codex people.  The setting just doesn't really grab me the way fantasy or sci-fi settings do.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vaeliorin wrote...

That said, a cRPG conversion of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks would be awesome.  Heck, half the reason I bought ToEE was because if it was successful they were supposedly going to do Against the Giants next, and that's one of my favorite adventures ever (mostly because of fond memories, though...I still remember my ranger losing an eye to an ogress with a fork...and the DM randomly rolling and me ending up with a broadsword of giant slaying...who would ever make such a thing in 2E?)

WotC was trying to revive Greyhawk at the time.  There were even novels (some of which were good - though the Against the Giants novel was terrible).

2E was great for creating stories through mechanics.  Because such random outcomes were possible, they could be romanticised after the fact.

[bussinrounds]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

 RTwP is a sort of analog turn-based, so it's just turn-based with finer controls

  What ?    TB gives you much better control (and better feedback) compared to RtwP.  Try fighting 2 beholders in different areas, at the same time in RtwP combat.   You can literally fight armies in TB.  RtwP is just too chaotic/too much going on at once.   I see all these lights flash across the screen one moment and then I'm scrolling back in the battle log when paused, just to see wtf happened.    Instead of enjoying each action (and examining the feedback and as it takes place)  

  As far as the list goes, it needs some more old school flavor in that top 10 (Gold Box, Wizardry, Ultima, M&M, Dark Sun, BaK..)   But I guess that has alot to do with the newer games being more available/played and most of the voters being in the 20-30 age group range as opposed to the 30+.

  Anyways, it's still miles better than any other mainstream RPG lists you're gonna find, that's for sure.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Think of RTwP as turn-based where the turns are really small, and each action takes several turns to complete.

Granted, to complete the analogy RTwP needs very strong auto-pause settings.

But turn-based doesn't allow you to wait half a turn before deciding what the to. RTwP gives greater control over decisions like weighing positioning against timing.

I can shoot that guy with my bow, but I'm more likely to hit him if I move up this ramp. In turn-based, I typically have to decide whether to shoot this turn, or instead to wait until next turn after I've had more moves allocated. But in RTwP, I can shoot now, or at any moment as I climb the ramp. Each step I take gives to a To Hit advantage, but also costs me time.

RTwP is like turn-based with shorter turns.

[bussinrounds]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Think of RTwP as turn-based where the turns are really small, and each action takes several turns to complete.

Granted, to complete the analogy RTwP needs very strong auto-pause settings.

But turn-based doesn't allow you to wait half a turn before deciding what the to. RTwP gives greater control over decisions like weighing positioning against timing.

I can shoot that guy with my bow, but I'm more likely to hit him if I move up this ramp. In turn-based, I typically have to decide whether to shoot this turn, or instead to wait until next turn after I've had more moves allocated. But in RTwP, I can shoot now, or at any moment as I climb the ramp. Each step I take gives to a To Hit advantage, but also costs me time.

RTwP is like turn-based with shorter turns.

  Good point and I guess there are certain advantages like that.  But to me, not nearly enough to overcome the negatives. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'll grant that RTwP can be done badly - much more badly than turn-based can. I suppose my point is that while turn-based is often better than RTwP, I still think the perfect system would be a RTwP system.

[bussinrounds]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

 I still think the perfect system would be a RTwP system.

Have to agree to disagree on that one.

  I've yet to see a RtwP system that even comes close to ToEE/JA2/Gold Box/KotC combat and I'm not holding my breath.  Hopefully PE will be tolerable enough and Torment will be TB.:happy:

[Vaeliorin]

bussinrounds wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
 I still think the perfect system would be a RTwP system.

Have to agree to disagree on that one.

  I've yet to see a RtwP system that even comes close to ToEE/JA2/Gold Box/KotC combat and I'm not holding my breath.  Hopefully PE will be tolerable enough and Torment will be TB.:happy:

Yeah, I definitely think the perfect system would have to be turn-based.  This is largely because I find that RTwP games are always easier than turn-based games, largely because you can both make up for positioning errors and react to changing situations instantly.  That and kiting...kiting isn't really a thing in turn-based games.

That said, this thread has inspired me to re-install ToEE with the Co8 mods, and I have to say, I'm really enjoying it.  Fighting Mathel in the Welkwood Marsh was pretty hard though (would probably be easier if I had a full party instead of just 5.)

[EpicBoot2daFace]

EntropicAngel wrote...

"Is Deus Ex even an RPG? I don't know and I don't care"


Yes yes, sounds like a reputable source to me.



I really don't know why people depend on gaming sites for information...

It most certainly is an RPG.

[Sylvius the Mad]

bussinrounds wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

 I still think the perfect system would be a RTwP system.

Have to agree to disagree on that one.

  I've yet to see a RtwP system that even comes close to ToEE/JA2/Gold Box/KotC combat and I'm not holding my breath.  Hopefully PE will be tolerable enough and Torment will be TB.:happy:

The Wasteland 2 combat (turn-based) does look terrific.

[Gotholhorakh]

eroeru wrote...
the guys in RPG Codex seem to have their wants really well-defined - they do seem like a fun bunch...

Hehehehehehe

Hail to you, you lovely charitable person.

[Gatt9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm suprised they even have a console RPG list.

I also find it interesting that they talk about the decline of the RPG in the late '90s, and hold up BG as an example of the start of that decline, and yet they hardly have any earlier games on their list. Why not Wasteland? Or Wizard's Crown? Or any Ultima game? It's like NMA took over RPG Codex and turned it into a Fallout fansite.

Why?  From what I've seen there they don't have anything against Consoles,  just the Shooters that companies slap the RPG acronym on and try to pass off as RPG's today.

It's very hard to characterize those early RPG's as great RPG's in the modern day.  They are inargueably legendary and influential,  and helped define the future of CRPG's even to today.  But they are just dungeon crawls,  with virtually no interactivity,  they lack any significant quests,  and at best their narrative is barebones.  It's hard to identify them as top 10 RPG's today when compared to more modern entries with strong narratives or interactivity.

I wouldn't point at Baldur's Gate as the turning point,  I'd say Mass Effect 2 and Oblivion was the turning point.  I'm still amazed to this day by how many people actually think they're RPG's when they lack even the most fundamental components of an RPG.

[Haplose]

A pretty good list overall, I'd say. But two titles are notably missing: Gothic 2 and Skyrim. As far as freedom and exploration aspects go, these are among the best.

Gothic 2 also had the kinda cool (and game changing!) combat animation development accompanying skill development.

[bussinrounds]

Haplose wrote...

A pretty good list overall, I'd say. But two titles are notably missing: Gothic 2 and Skyrim. As far as freedom and exploration aspects go, these are among the best.

Gothic 2 also had the kinda cool (and game changing!) combat animation development accompanying skill development.

 Gothic 2 came in at 12th with 78 votes.  Skyrim ??   Let's just say, I wouldn't hold my breath.  I'm pretty surprised Morrowind was that high. 

Here's the top 50...

1 - Fallout 189
2 - Planescape 176
3 - Fallout 2 169
4 - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn 155
5 - Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magick Obscura 151
6 - Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 125
7 - Baldur's Gate 108
8 - Icewind Dale 105
9 - Fallout: New Vegas 95
9 - The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind 95
9 - The Temple of Elemental Evil 95
10 - Deus Ex 92
11- Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer 85
12 - Gothic II 78
13 - Jagged Alliance 2 69
14 - Icewind Dale II 66
15 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords 65
16 - Betrayal at Krondor 64
17 - Wizardry 8 61
18 - Knights of the Chalice 60
19 - The Witcher 58
20 - Dark Sun: Shattered Lands 57
21 - Darklands 54
21 - System Shock 2 54
22 - Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven 53
23 - Wizardry: Crusaders of the Dark Savant 52
24 - Might and Magic World of Xeen 47
25 - Ultima VII: Part 1 The Black Gate 46
26 - Gothic 43
26 - The Elder Scrolls: Chapter II - Daggerfall 43
27 - Pool Of Radiance 42
27 - Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss 42
28 - Realms of Arkania 2: Star Trail 41
29 - Wasteland 39
30 - Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor 37
31 - Divine Divinity 33
32 - Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar 33
33 - Wizardry: Bane of the Cosmic Forge 32
34 - Arx Fatalis 31
35 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 30
36 - Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny 29
37 - Diablo 28
37 - Diablo II 28
38 - Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos 27
38 - Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny 27
39 - Curse of the Azure Bonds 25
39 - Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra 25
40 - Dragon Age Origins 24
41 - Dungeon Master 23
41 - Neverwinter Nights - Hordes of the Underdark 23
41 - The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings 23
42 - Risen 22
42 - Ultima VI: The False Prophet 22
43 - ADOM Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADOM) 20
44 - Mount & Blade: Warband 19
45 - Divinity II: The Dragon Knight Saga 18
46 - Geneforge 1746 - Legend of Grimrock 17
46 - Neverwinter Nights 17
47 - Drakensang: The River of Time 16
47 - Prelude to Darkness 16
48 - Anachronox 14
48 - Deus Ex : Human Revolution 14
48 - King of Dragon Pass 14
48 - The Dark Heart of Uukrul 14
48 - Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds 14
48 - Ultima VII: Part 2 The Serpent Isle 14
49 - Eye of the Beholder 13
49 - Eye of the Beholder II: The Legend of Darkmoon 13
49 - Neverwinter Nights 2 13
49 - Pools of Darkness 13
49 - The Bard's Tale I : Tales of the Unknown 13
50 - Albion 1250 - Might and Magic II: Gates to Another World 12
50 - Quest For Glory IV: Shadows of Darkness 12
50 - Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption 12

      As Crusty mentioned, it does read more like a most popular list (for Codex standards of course) rather than a best RPG list.    I mean Pool of Radiance and Star Trail being doubled up by Baldurs Gate 1 and IWD ?   The right games seem to be represented in the top 50 (for the most part), it's just that the places they're in are a little screwed up, but that's due to the lack of exposure of the older games.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 29 mars 2013 - 12:26 .