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[Sylvius the Mad]

Gatt9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm suprised they even have a console RPG list.

I also find it interesting that they talk about the decline of the RPG in the late '90s, and hold up BG as an example of the start of that decline, and yet they hardly have any earlier games on their list. Why not Wasteland? Or Wizard's Crown? Or any Ultima game? It's like NMA took over RPG Codex and turned it into a Fallout fansite.

Why?  From what I've seen there they don't have anything against Consoles,  just the Shooters that companies slap the RPG acronym on and try to pass off as RPG's today.

It's very hard to characterize those early RPG's as great RPG's in the modern day.  They are inargueably legendary and influential,  and helped define the future of CRPG's even to today.  But they are just dungeon crawls,  with virtually no interactivity,  they lack any significant quests,  and at best their narrative is barebones.  It's hard to identify them as top 10 RPG's today when compared to more modern entries with strong narratives or interactivity.

Their complete lack of in-character decision-making would seem to me to disqualify a great many of those console games.

Whereas, I'll happily defend the greatness of Ultima 4-7.  In no way do I see so-called modern RPGs as being superior.

[Urgon]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm suprised they even have a console RPG list.

I also find it interesting that they talk about the decline of the RPG in the late '90s, and hold up BG as an example of the start of that decline, and yet they hardly have any earlier games on their list. Why not Wasteland? Or Wizard's Crown? Or any Ultima game? It's like NMA took over RPG Codex and turned it into a Fallout fansite.

Why?  From what I've seen there they don't have anything against Consoles,  just the Shooters that companies slap the RPG acronym on and try to pass off as RPG's today.

It's very hard to characterize those early RPG's as great RPG's in the modern day.  They are inargueably legendary and influential,  and helped define the future of CRPG's even to today.  But they are just dungeon crawls,  with virtually no interactivity,  they lack any significant quests,  and at best their narrative is barebones.  It's hard to identify them as top 10 RPG's today when compared to more modern entries with strong narratives or interactivity.

Their complete lack of in-character decision-making would seem to me to disqualify a great many of those console games.

Whereas, I'll happily defend the greatness of Ultima 4-7.  In no way do I see so-called modern RPGs as being superior.

I think that by "more modern" he meant the Fallout-Arcanum era, and not the modern games that are not RPGs at all

[wsandista]

Urgon wrote...

I think that by "more modern" he meant the Fallout-Arcanum era, and not the modern games that are not RPGs at all

I think Sylvius is referring to console RPGS, which do no typically allow decision making(in-character or otherwise) by the player or do not let the player expressly consent to what the PC says and does.

I have to agree with him. I enjoy the 8-bit Final Fantasy games, but I don't really consider them RPGs. Just as I do not consider The Withcer series RPGs.

[Gatt9]

wsandista wrote...

Urgon wrote...

I think that by "more modern" he meant the Fallout-Arcanum era, and not the modern games that are not RPGs at all

I think Sylvius is referring to console RPGS, which do no typically allow decision making(in-character or otherwise) by the player or do not let the player expressly consent to what the PC says and does.

I have to agree with him. I enjoy the 8-bit Final Fantasy games, but I don't really consider them RPGs. Just as I do not consider The Withcer series RPGs.

I did mean Fallout-Arcanum era,

Ironically,  the 8-bit Final Fantasy's are closer to being an RPG than the modern games.  Technically speaking,  decision making isn't a component of an RPG,  one could conceivably create an entire dungeon with AD&D/D&D that doesn't involve any more decision making than the early FF games,  and it would be an RPG by definition.  In fact,  Nethack does just that,  and it's a pretty hardcore RPG.

 Whereas decision making,  in the same vacuum,  doesn't actually generate an RPG.  At best,  it would generate a shared story.  An RPG requires the framework that defines the Character to be an RPG.  Decision making,  without that framework,  is just random since it lacks any defined Character.

That said,  a *good* RPG will include decision making along side of the rules framework.  The aforementioned dungeon might be an RPG,  but it wouldn't be a good one.

Modern "RPG's" rarely include the mechanics that define the character,  and generally just have you self-insert into a railroaded experience as Mass Effect did since all of your decisions were irrelevant.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Gatt9 wrote...

Modern "RPG's" rarely include the mechanics that define the character,  and generally just have you self-insert into a railroaded experience as Mass Effect did since all of your decisions were irrelevant.

But you can't self-insert into a game like Mass Effect because you don't get to make any choices.  A self-insert can only work if the player can control his character's behaviour or motives or something.  All the player can do in ME (or DA2) is hope to empathise with his character, because he has effectively no control over him.

I would say that BioWare's most recent games have offered almost exactly as much roleplaying as FF7 did.

[bussinrounds]

It's funny that when ppl talk about 'roleplaying' they almost exclusively think about dialog choices/non combat scenarios for some reason. You do know that combat is a part of this mythical “role-playing” that’s supposed to exist in RPGs, right? You can fight like a fighter, pick pockets/backstab like a thief, cast like a mage, priest etc....

Don't get me wrong, I love games like Fallout (not 3), PST, Arcanum where it feels like your dialog choices actually mattered and effected the game, but I also love the old school style rpgs if they have good combat, mechanics and a thin justification for going deeper into the dungeon or wherever.

[MichaelStuart]

All I can say is, I would have picked differently.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

FWIW, here's a full list of the top 50. Seeing as it was a popular vote, top 10 doesn't indicate 10 best (despite what the title may say), but 10 most popular.

Placement - Name - Votes

1 - Fallout 189
2 - Planescape 176
3 - Fallout 2 169
4 - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn 155
5 - Arcanum: Of Steamworks & Magick Obscura 151
6 - Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 125
7 - Baldur's Gate 108
8 - Icewind Dale 105
9 - Fallout: New Vegas 95
9 - The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind 95
9 - The Temple of Elemental Evil 95
10 - Deus Ex 92
11- Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer 85
12 - Gothic II 78
13 - Jagged Alliance 2 69
14 - Icewind Dale II 66
15 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords 65
16 - Betrayal at Krondor 64
17 - Wizardry 8 61
18 - Knights of the Chalice 60
19 - The Witcher 58
20 - Dark Sun: Shattered Lands 57
21 - Darklands 54
21 - System Shock 2 54
22 - Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven 53
23 - Wizardry: Crusaders of the Dark Savant 52
24 - Might and Magic World of Xeen 47
25 - Ultima VII: Part 1 The Black Gate 46
26 - Gothic 43
26 - The Elder Scrolls: Chapter II - Daggerfall 43
27 - Pool Of Radiance 42
27 - Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss 42
28 - Realms of Arkania 2: Star Trail 41
29 - Wasteland 39
30 - Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor 37
31 - Divine Divinity 33
32 - Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar 33
33 - Wizardry: Bane of the Cosmic Forge 32
34 - Arx Fatalis 31
35 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 30
36 - Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny 29
37 - Diablo 28
37 - Diablo II 28
38 - Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos 27
38 - Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny 27
39 - Curse of the Azure Bonds 25
39 - Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra 25
40 - Dragon Age Origins 24
41 - Dungeon Master 23
41 - Neverwinter Nights - Hordes of the Underdark 23
41 - The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings 23
42 - Risen 22
42 - Ultima VI: The False Prophet 22
43 - ADOM Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADOM) 20
44 - Mount & Blade: Warband 19
45 - Divinity II: The Dragon Knight Saga 18
46 - Geneforge 17
46 - Legend of Grimrock 17
46 - Neverwinter Nights 17
47 - Drakensang: The River of Time 16
47 - Prelude to Darkness 16
48 - Anachronox 14
48 - Deus Ex : Human Revolution 14
48 - King of Dragon Pass 14
48 - The Dark Heart of Uukrul 14
48 - Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds 14
48 - Ultima VII: Part 2 The Serpent Isle 14
49 - Eye of the Beholder 13
49 - Eye of the Beholder II: The Legend of Darkmoon 13
49 - Neverwinter Nights 2 13
49 - Pools of Darkness 13
49 - The Bard's Tale I : Tales of the Unknown 13
50 - Albion 12
50 - Might and Magic II: Gates to Another World 12
50 - Quest For Glory IV: Shadows of Darkness 12
50 - Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption 12

[Urgon]

EntropicAngel wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

It's funny that when ppl talk about 'roleplaying' they almost exclusively think about dialog choices/non combat scenarios for some reason. You do know that combat is a part of this mythical “role-playing” that’s supposed to exist in RPGs, right? You can fight like a fighter, pick pockets/backstab like a thief, cast like a mage, priest etc....

Don't get me wrong, I love games like Fallout (not 3), PST, Arcanum where it feels like your dialog choices actually mattered and effected the game, but I also love the old school style rpgs if they have good combat, mechanics and a thin justification for going deeper into the dungeon or wherever.

The reason for this is because being a thief, being a mage, being a warrior--these tell me nothing about you as a person. It just tells me what you're best at. You can be a thief but have a heart of gold--the so-called Robin Hood. Or one might be a truly desparate thief who would steal candy from a baby. Your class tells me nothing about that. Combat tells me nothing about that. Combat is not role-playing.

I'm being overly harsh, but by and large I mean it.

The hole in your logic is that Adventure games did that first, so it's not the defining RPG trait. By your definition a game like Walking Dead, or every other Adventure game for that matter, is an RPG. Your definition is as narrow as that of the guy who is stuck in the 80' who says that anything other than pure dungeon crawlers is not a real RPG.

[In Exile]

bussinrounds wrote...

It's funny that when ppl talk about 'roleplaying' they almost exclusively think about dialog choices/non combat scenarios for some reason. You do know that combat is a part of this mythical “role-playing” that’s supposed to exist in RPGs, right? You can fight like a fighter, pick pockets/backstab like a thief, cast like a mage, priest etc....

I find it ridiculous that people that about anything other than how RPGs have failed for two decades to simulate a proper wargame, because that's really what an RPG was. And it's an obviously true fact that a thing has to stay what it was at the begining, and any kind of evolution in the use of a term is perverse and wrong.

[Haplose]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Haplose wrote...

A pretty good list overall, I'd say. But two titles are notably missing: Gothic 2 and Skyrim. As far as freedom and exploration aspects go, these are among the best.

Gothic 2 also had the kinda cool (and game changing!) combat animation development accompanying skill development.

Why Gothic 2 as opposed to Gothic?

Hm, no particular reason, I guess... except for SLIGHTLY more modern graphics.... aaand the fact that I haven't played part 1, so can't really attest to it.

I know I liked the town of Khorinis a lot in part two... And the class development paths tightly tied with the story choices. And how much the combat gameplay changes depending on enemy type (behaviour and attack patterns) and your skill with a weapon type (animations are completly different depending on skill level). And how people react to you trespassing in their houses, stealing, etc. And the freedom + exploration. Finding Dragon Slicer still in Act 1 was awesome... even if it took a fair amount of traning before reaching it's strenght requirements...

[eroeru]

CrustyBot wrote...

FWIW, here's a full list of the top 50. Seeing as it was a popular vote, top 10 doesn't indicate 10 best (despite what the title may say), but 10 most popular.

True. But people participating weren't asked to vote for "what you think is most popular". They were asked to vote for a favorite, or best.

Modifié par eroeru, 29 mars 2013 - 05:05 .

[FedericoV]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...

That said, a cRPG conversion of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks would be awesome.  Heck, half the reason I bought ToEE was because if it was successful they were supposedly going to do Against the Giants next, and that's one of my favorite adventures ever (mostly because of fond memories, though...I still remember my ranger losing an eye to an ogress with a fork...and the DM randomly rolling and me ending up with a broadsword of giant slaying...who would ever make such a thing in 2E?)

WotC was trying to revive Greyhawk at the time.  

Monte Cook even made a "Return to the temple of elemental evil" module for 3E.

It was a very good dungeoun crawl (imho even better than Gygax's original and I played them both). 

[Urgon]

Urgon wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

bussinrounds wrote...

It's funny that when ppl talk about 'roleplaying' they almost exclusively think about dialog choices/non combat scenarios for some reason. You do know that combat is a part of this mythical “role-playing” that’s supposed to exist in RPGs, right? You can fight like a fighter, pick pockets/backstab like a thief, cast like a mage, priest etc....

Don't get me wrong, I love games like Fallout (not 3), PST, Arcanum where it feels like your dialog choices actually mattered and effected the game, but I also love the old school style rpgs if they have good combat, mechanics and a thin justification for going deeper into the dungeon or wherever.

The reason for this is because being a thief, being a mage, being a warrior--these tell me nothing about you as a person. It just tells me what you're best at. You can be a thief but have a heart of gold--the so-called Robin Hood. Or one might be a truly desparate thief who would steal candy from a baby. Your class tells me nothing about that. Combat tells me nothing about that. Combat is not role-playing.

I'm being overly harsh, but by and large I mean it.

The hole in your logic is that Adventure games did that first, so it's not the defining RPG trait. By your definition a game like Walking Dead, or every other Adventure game for that matter, is an RPG. Your definition is as narrow as that of the guy who is stuck in the 80' who says that anything other than pure dungeon crawlers is not a real RPG.

Fair enough. I had story choices in my mind when i talked about adventure games like Walking Dead.
With your definition i understand what RPG means to you. 
I'm curious, have you played games in the Fallout1 - Arcanum era? Or games by Obsidian Entertainment? If yes, what do you think of them?

Modifié par Urgon, 29 mars 2013 - 06:49 .

[Urgon]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Urgon wrote...

Fair enough. I had story choices in my mind when i talked about adventure games like Walking Dead.
With your definition i understand what RPG means to you. 
I'm curious, have you played games in the Fallout1 - Arcanum era? Or games by Obsidian Entertainment? If yes, what do you think of them?

I have not--I did not know anything about RPGs then, and additionally I dislike the post-apocalyptic setting very, very intensely so I will never play some like Fallout or Wasteland.

I've played a couple of Obsidian games. KotOR II. Alpha Protocol. I found both lacking in the RPG department--KotOR II because your character has a history that you the player aren't privy too, and Alpha because your character is primarily concerned with manipulation, not with defining the character.


I believe Sylvius has stated before that Planescape: Torment would be the optimal game for me (though I may be mistaken), though I'll likely never play it.

Why is that?


If you want to try Obsidian games that fit your RPG criteria try Mask of the Betrayer, that is the first expansion of NWN2.  Fallout New Vegas is also excelent at RPG elements, but if you hate post apocalyptic so be it.
Planescape:Torment is a masterpiece, and have more character choices than the 2 Dragon Age games compined. Also try Baldur's Gate 2 (in my opinion the best Bioware game) and Arcanum

[wsandista]

Gatt9 wrote...

I did mean Fallout-Arcanum era,

Ironically,  the 8-bit Final Fantasy's are closer to being an RPG than the modern games.  Technically speaking,  decision making isn't a component of an RPG,  one could conceivably create an entire dungeon with AD&D/D&D that doesn't involve any more decision making than the early FF games,  and it would be an RPG by definition.  In fact,  Nethack does just that,  and it's a pretty hardcore RPG.

 Whereas decision making,  in the same vacuum,  doesn't actually generate an RPG.  At best,  it would generate a shared story.  An RPG requires the framework that defines the Character to be an RPG.  Decision making,  without that framework,  is just random since it lacks any defined Character.

That said,  a *good* RPG will include decision making along side of the rules framework.  The aforementioned dungeon might be an RPG,  but it wouldn't be a good one.

Modern "RPG's" rarely include the mechanics that define the character,  and generally just have you self-insert into a railroaded experience as Mass Effect did since all of your decisions were irrelevant.

Combat is decision making. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

It is possible to have a game with hardcore mechanics, yet still not allow player's to make decisions outside of combat. In the Final Fantasy games, the player has full control during combat and exploration, but loses control during cut-scenes. It would be very possible to do something very similar with D&D mechanics. IMO, the player should have full control of the PC at all times to be considered an RPG.

I do not consider modern Bioware games(ME series, DA2, SWTOR) and the Witcher series to be RPGs because the player does not have full control of the PC at all times. In those games, the PC will act without player input, or the player is given choices that do not fully present what the PC will do.

[Urgon]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Urgon wrote...

Why is that?


If you want to try Obsidian games that fit your RPG criteria try Mask of the Betrayer, that is the first expansion of NWN2.  Fallout New Vegas is also excelent at RPG elements, but if you hate post apocalyptic so be it.
Planescape:Torment is a masterpiece, and have more character choices than the 2 Dragon Age games compined. Also try Baldur's Gate 2 (in my opinion the best Bioware game) and Arcanum

To answer your question, and indirectly respond to the rest, because it really doesn't interest me. Although I do have fairly...stringent definitions on an RPG, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy non-RPGs, and in fact I do quite a bit. As a result I don't necessarily play a game just because "it's a great RPG."

Does that make sense?

Yeap, makes sense.
As an aside, an easy way to decide if Planescape:Torment would be the ideal game for you or not is to watch
http://www.kickstart...des-of-numenera
It will be a spiritual successor to Planescape. You can watch the video and the updates. If what they strive to achieve sounds appealing to you, you would like Planescape. If not, no reason to bother at all.