189 réponses à ce sujet

[Solmanian]

I didn't have any idea who this Lily is. So I looked up in the DA wiki. Now that I know my first thought: "who cares?". Only the mage origin even encounter her, and I personaly hated her, seeing her as the one to get my friend into blood magic and escaping the tower.

[Willowhugger]

Yeah, my mage asked twice about the Blood Magic thing and got REALLY pissed. That's why he said for Jowan never to speak to him again.

He still let him loose in Redcliffe, though.

[Face of Evil]

Oh sure, all templars everywhere are rapists, and no woman is safe in their custody. Just like how all blood mages are evil and in league with demons.

My logic is iron-clad.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 mars 2013 - 04:49 .

[brushyourteeth]

KainD wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Agree, though, that Lily is probably possessed or dead or tortured beyond the point of sanity by this point. And she's probably been violated by her fair share of templars.

Her own fault. 

I'm going to assume that you're a troll and not actually the world's most terrible person.

You're welcome.

[Willowhugger]

I like the Jowan-Lily romance because it was very believable. Jowan messed things up and Lily thought she was doing the right thing. It'll be interesting to see how she feels about the issue after a decade.

[brushyourteeth]

Face of Evil wrote...

Because all templars are rapists? Well, it's probably because all blood mages are evil.

My logic is iron-clad.

Hey, I'm pro-templar myself. But let's be real:

1.) templar abuse of power does sometimes happen. It's just established lore fact at this point.

2.) the Chantry probably isn't sending Aeonar their best and brightest. Strong oversight, accountability, and ethical treatment of prisoners probably aren't high scores on their list of Aeonar priorities either. Otherwise, you know, they probably wouldn't actually be okay with locking people up in a thin-veiled prison chosen specifically with "come on in, demons! We brought you a hot meal!" in mind, and then watching it happen day in and day out.

[KainD]

Filament wrote...
Though, someone being violated is never their own fault. Not just because she's a woman, people say this very commonly about male prison rape too. I find it abhorrent.

brushyourteeth wrote...
I'm going to assume that you're a troll and not actually the world's most terrible person.
You're welcome.

I didn't mean the violation part, that is never a persons fault yes.
I meant her situation all together, she got herself into that mess. 

[brushyourteeth]

KainD wrote...

Filament wrote...
Though, someone being violated is never their own fault. Not just because she's a woman, people say this very commonly about male prison rape too. I find it abhorrent.

brushyourteeth wrote...
I'm going to assume that you're a troll and not actually the world's most terrible person.
You're welcome.

I didn't mean the violation part, that is never a persons fault yes.
I meant her situation all together, she got herself into that mess. 

In that case, I apologize for calling you a troll.

Though I think I'd still argue that nobody deserves what happens to people at Aeonar. "We won't just kill you, we'll let demons possess and torture you first." is about the least ethical thing I've encountered in the DA universe. And that's saying something.

[Face of Evil]

 Actually, isn't that the sort of place you would send your best and brightest, the ones most able to resist demonic influene? Because the Veil is thin and the inmates are almost guaranteed to turn into abominations? It would hardly benefit the Chantry for Aeonar to become the site of a demonic invasion.

Also, while abuses occur in the system, that doesn't mean that abuses are system-wide. Bethany joins Kirkwall's Circle, which is as oppressive as the Circle of Magi gets. Do you ever hear her complain about being beaten and raped?

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 mars 2013 - 04:59 .

[Willowhugger]

Face of Evil wrote...

 Actually, isn't that the sort of place you would send your best and brightest, the ones most able to resist demonic influene? Because the Veil is thin and the inmates are almost guaranteed to turn into abominations? It would hardly benefit the Chantry for Aeonar to become the site of a demonic invasion.

Also, while abuses occur in the system, that doesn't mean that abuses are system-wide. Bethany joins Kirkwall's Circle, which is as oppressive as the Circle of Magi gets. Do you ever hear her complain about being beaten and raped?

I think we should get off on rape as a topic. It's inappropriate and we'd talk in circles. Rape does happen in the DA universe and there WAS a Templar who was planning to do it to a mage. However, it's not implied he's normal for his kind.

Abuse is likely but I suspect it's more like verbal and mental.

[brushyourteeth]

Face of Evil wrote...

 Actually, isn't that the sort of place you would send your best and brightest, the ones most able to resist demonic influene? Because the Veil is thin and the inmates are almost guaranteed to turn into abominations? It would hardly benefit the Chantry for Aeonar to become the site of a demonic invasion.

Also, while abuses occur in the system, that doesn't mean that abuses are system-wide. Bethany joins Kirkwall's Circle, which is as oppressive as the Circle of Magi gets. Do you ever hear her complain about being beaten and raped?

I think you're missing my point (though it's gone rather off-topic).
Rape happens at the hands of templars. Not saying everyone does it or everyone knows about it and approves of it. Just saying it's established that it happens. Didn't happen to Bethany (that we know about. But she was an Amell, and would you trust her to tell you if she was raped?), but regardless, it happened to enough others that it's alarming. At least in Kirkwall.

Though you may have a point about skilled Templars being at Aeonar. Still doesn't mean they are (or aren't. We don't know much about them) what anyone would call virtuous, or decent, or chivalrous.

[KainD]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Didn't happen to Bethany (that we know about. But she was an Amell, and would you trust her to tell you if she was raped?

Of course I would. Why wouldn't she? 

[brushyourteeth]

Willowhugger wrote...

I think we should get off on rape as a topic. It's inappropriate and we'd talk in circles.
*snip*

This is your party, so I'll respect that request.


(though, daaaang, I do wish you'd take the "the" out of the title. It's just Aeonar. It's like when I ask my dad where he wants to eat and he says he wants to go to the Ponderosa. It's *just* Ponderosa, dad.)

[Face of Evil]

Filament wrote...

Bethany has connections with nobility who later becomes the most popular man/woman in the city.

Not at first. Hawke does not immediately vacate Gamlen's hovel and join the ranks of the elite upon exiting the Deep Roads. It takes time to convert the treasure hoard found in the Deep Roads into wealth and to acquire/renovate the Amell estate; Hawke isn't really part of the "nobility" for some time.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 mars 2013 - 05:16 .

[brushyourteeth]

KainD wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Didn't happen to Bethany (that we know about. But she was an Amell, and would you trust her to tell you if she was raped?

Of course I would. Why wouldn't she? 

Quickly: most rapes go unreported. It's difficult to talk about. A lot of victims feel a sense of shame (though it's not their fault) and choose to keep it to themselves rather than going through an investigation and trial. And in Bethany's case she might fear greater repurcussions if Hawke did something about it.

(side note: if anyone wants more information, click here)

[Willowhugger]

Yeah, the people who believe mages are tortured by the Templars 24/7 will believe it no matter what. Hell, Orson Scott Card believed it and you wouldn't think of him as the guy who throws much sympathy towards oppressed minority groups.

As a general rule, I think the Chantry vs. Templar divide loses a lot of its appeal if not for the idea that the Chantry puts the mages up in luxury accommodations comparable to a 5 star hotel in Thedas.

It's just, like the Hotel California, you can check out any time you like but you can never leave.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 28 mars 2013 - 05:18 .

[Willowhugger]

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flies like a duck it's a duck. Wynne and Bethany are happy with Circle life since they enjoy the equivalent of monastic life. If they were secretly suffering Stockholme Syndrome the game would probably give us a clue to this. Instead, no, they're quite happy with their situation.

There's more than enough ****ed up consequences without going into that direction. Fenris is quite clear on the consequences of slavery, even if he's not reporting it.

It's an irony of the Mages that they're constantly bemoaning their situation while the poor elves get ignored by most (including gamers).

[Willowhugger]

Filament wrote...

The point is that abuse of power is common enough that anyone unfortunate enough to fall under the templars' purview have good reason to fear the abuse, and, going back to blood mages, that anyone unfortunate enough to encounter a blood mage has good reason to fear for their own life. Not that templars have torture and rape in their job description, or that every blood mage is evil.

I'm aware of that, but that would assume Lily is any more vulnerable to such abuse in the Aeonor than she is in any other prison. I, personally, hope they won't go there because it diminishes my enjoyment whenever it pops up in video games even if I know it's distressingly common.

I'd prefer her to just be crazy from demon-torment.

[KainD]

Willowhugger wrote...
Chantry puts the mages up in luxury accommodations comparable to a 5 star hotel in Thedas.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flies like a duck it's a duck. Wynne and Bethany are happy with Circle life since they enjoy the equivalent of monastic life. If they were secretly suffering Stockholme Syndrome the game would probably give us a clue to this. Instead, no, they're quite happy with their situation.

It's just that all people are different. Some are totally fine with it, and some would rather die than not have complete freedom. ME3 had a similar situation with Ardat-Yakshi. Morinth ran away from the monastery but her sisters were okay with staying there. Same with Anders and Wynne.

Willowhugger wrote...
It's an irony of the Mages that they're constantly bemoaning their situation while the poor elves get ignored by most (including gamers).

Elves situation is bad too, it's just not the focus of the game currently, there is no way for the player to include themsleves in it. Doesn't mean that players ignore it. 

Both mage and Elf problems are bad. 

[Face of Evil]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Quickly: most rapes go unreported. It's difficult to talk about. A lot of victims feel a sense of shame (though it's not their fault) and choose to keep it to themselves rather than going through an investigation and trial. And in Bethany's case she might fear greater repurcussions if Hawke did something about it.

(side note: if anyone wants more information, click here)

And in the vast majority of sexual assault cases, the victim knew their abuser because he/she was a family member or friend. I'm aware of the statistics.

It's just a real awful fallacy to assume that Lily was OBVIOUSLY raped by templars because some templars have been known to commit rape. That speaks to a mindset that automatically assumes that all templars are out to brutalize mages in the worst way possible.

Well, if the templars are so rape-happy, maybe we should kill them all to be safe?

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 mars 2013 - 05:40 .

[KainD]

Face of Evil wrote...

Well, if the templars are so rape-happy, maybe we should kill them all to be safe?

Yes. I am totally going to kill every single templar I can in DA:I. But not just because they are prone to abuse and because of what happened in Kirkwall, but because their very nature is disgusting to me. What they basically do is give up their whole life to deprive other people of their freedom. That is just.. holy sh*t, I don't know if there are worse things you can do with your life.