189 réponses à ce sujet

[brushyourteeth]

Willowhugger wrote...

Filament wrote...

The point is that abuse of power is common enough that anyone unfortunate enough to fall under the templars' purview have good reason to fear the abuse, and, going back to blood mages, that anyone unfortunate enough to encounter a blood mage has good reason to fear for their own life. Not that templars have torture and rape in their job description, or that every blood mage is evil.

I'm aware of that, but that would assume Lily is any more vulnerable to such abuse in the Aeonor than she is in any other prison. I, personally, hope they won't go there because it diminishes my enjoyment whenever it pops up in video games even if I know it's distressingly common.

I'd prefer her to just be crazy from demon-torment.

It's not better. Even if Lily went unmolested by her jailers, she still was likely mindraped by demons. The same way Keran was.

Face of Evil wrote..
It's just a real awful fallacy to assume that Lily was OBVIOUSLY raped by templars because some templars have been known to commit rape. That's a mindset that automatically assumes that all templars are out to brutalize mages.

I never said Lily was definitely raped. I was essentially saying that Aeonar is about the most unethical prison I've ever heard of, and I wouldn't expect the crimes against humanity (this includes dwarves and elves, blah blah) to stop at just demonic torture. Because at that point, what's holding anyone back? Protocol? Certainly not what I'd call morality.

You're not being fair. You're obviously angry about some discussion you've previously had with a poster who isn't me (remember, I'm pro-Chantry/pro-Templar/pro-Circle system here as well) and you're putting words in my mouth. Please stop.

And Lily wasn't a mage.

** edited for confusing evil posters' names.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 28 mars 2013 - 05:49 .

[Face of Evil]

Filament wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

Well, if the templars are so rape-happy, maybe we should kill them all to be safe?

Now you're getting the idea. 

Well, if we're going to jump off the pier into ideological extremism, I'd rather adopt the approach of killing all mages.

Because some mages become maleficars and abomiantions, obviously they all want to. It's the only way to make Thedas safe.

Anders was right; there can be no compromise. If you want a vision of the future, imagine a templar's boot stomping on a mage's face forever.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 mars 2013 - 05:47 .

[KainD]

Face of Evil wrote...

Well, if we're going to extremes, I'd rather adopt the approach of killing all mages. Because some mages become evil blood mages, obviously they all want to. It's the only way to make Thedas safe.

Honestly that's a better and more ethical idea than the circle system. 
Just know that if any mages are going to survive your proposed system, they are going to be totally justified to be evil blood mages. 

[KainD]

Filament wrote...

It was a joke btw. You're the only one jumping to extremes. Well and maybe KainD. And lots of other posters on these forums regularly.

You are the only one that doesn't. 

[Face of Evil]

KainD wrote...

Just know that if any mages are going to survive your proposed system, they are going to be totally justified to be evil blood mages. 

Then we won't have to bother with any of this bulls*** about mercy.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 mars 2013 - 05:53 .

[KainD]

Face of Evil wrote...

Then we won't have to bother with any of this bulls*** about mercy.

Yes, kill or be killed. If you want to live like that, sure. 

[Solmanian]

KainD wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

Well, if the templars are so rape-happy, maybe we should kill them all to be safe?

Yes. I am totally going to kill every single templar I can in DA:I. But not just because they are prone to abuse and because of what happened in Kirkwall, but because their very nature is disgusting to me. What they basically do is give up their whole life to deprive other people of their freedom. That is just.. holy sh*t, I don't know if there are worse things you can do with your life. 

How about giving up your life to be first, last, and only line of defense from demonic invasion and powermongering blood mages?  Blood mages will always be stronger than regular mages, so the regular mages can't trusted or relied upon to police them.

You don't have to agree with their methods, but you can't pretend they're not performing a vital role. Do remember that plan A was to just kill all the mages; the circles are the compromise.

This is the part where the tevinter fanboys jump in and tell you what a great example it is to how great it is when mages are in charge, and that blood mage really isn't all that bad.

[brushyourteeth]

Face of Evil wrote...

KainD wrote...

Just know that if any mages are going to survive your proposed system, they are going to be totally justified to be evil blood mages. 

Then we won't have to bother with any of this bulls*** about mercy.

"We"?

You're really one of those people that takes the magic debate personally? 

*exits thread slowly*

[Willowhugger]

GETTING BACK ON TOPIC...

I think it'd be cool to have the option of her ether being an Abomination now, eager to forgive Jowan, or just plain crazy.

[Face of Evil]

Right, good point.

*Jumps ship*

Modifié par Face of Evil, 28 mars 2013 - 06:04 .

[KainD]

Solmanian wrote...

How about giving up your life to be first, last, and only line of defense from demonic invasion and powermongering blood mages?  Blood mages will always be stronger than regular mages, so the regular mages can't trusted or relied upon to police them.

You don't have to agree with their methods, but you can't pretend they're not performing a vital role. Do remember that plan A was to just kill all the mages; the circles are the compromise.

This is the part where the tevinter fanboys jump in and tell you what a great example it is to how great it is when mages are in charge, and that blood mage really isn't all that bad.

If templars were a line of defense they would be special forces that are only deployed when something goes wrong, but currently they are jailers for many people who have done nothing wrong. 

Seekers are doing the right thing - rooting out corruption when something actually goes wrong and hunting down dangerous appostate criminals and malificars. Templars on the other hand are a dumb and unethical order. 

I am totally going to say that templars do not perform a vital role. 

Tevinter is another extreme, but if the majority of people REALLY are ok with killing off all the mages as an alternative to not having templars, then Tevinter is completely justified in all of their actions. 

[KainD]

Willowhugger wrote...

GETTING BACK ON TOPIC...

I think it'd be cool to have the option of her ether being an Abomination now, eager to forgive Jowan, or just plain crazy.

I think she will never want to forgive Jowan after she has been through, because she will think it was because of him. So more likely crazy or an abomination, or dead. 

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

If she see's Jowan for the person he is, then blood magic shouldn't be a problem, not only that but he only used it to protect HER, and said that he is going to give it up, that he doesn't care about magic at all and will give it all up. 

But I guess more blame is on Jowan again, he should know better than to fall in love with zealots, who have chantry propaganda in their hearts deeper than they can have love for him.

She thought she saw Jowan for the person that he was; she was willing to risk her position in the Chantry and her own life to save him.  But then he showed us what sort of person he could be: petty and jealous enough of Mage Warden to turn to blood magic, something reviled by the vast majority of Southern Thedas.   She then got a very good picture of him.

Filament wrote...

The point is that abuse of power is
common enough that anyone unfortunate enough to fall under the templars'
purview have good reason to fear the abuse, and, going back to blood
mages, that anyone unfortunate enough to encounter a blood mage has good
reason to fear for their own life. Not that templars have torture and
rape in their job description, or that every blood mage is evil.

In Kirkwall, maybe. I never got that vibe from the Hold.  There is a bloodmage you have at your mercy, she begs for forgiveness and, if you're a Mage Warden, reminds you of what it was there.  The Templar were watching for blood magic, always watching, but she never mentions abuse outside of that.  Not harsh words, just vigilance. 


Back on topic, though, it would certainly be an interesting place, but considering the sort of people who are kept there, I'm not sure I'd want to stage a prison break.

[Willowhugger]

Blood magic allowed Jowan to escape from the First Enchanter and Knight Commander. So it obviously has benefits.

Seriously, though, Jowan only studied it SO HE COULD ESCAPE WITH LILY.

Which summarizes Jowan's character in a nutshell--make the worst mistakes possible.

[BlueMagitek]

Willowhugger wrote...

Blood magic allowed Jowan to escape from the First Enchanter and Knight Commander. So it obviously has benefits.

Seriously, though, Jowan only studied it SO HE COULD ESCAPE WITH LILY.

Which summarizes Jowan's character in a nutshell--make the worst mistakes possible.

He learned it because he thought it would make him a better mage and because he was jealous, he admits as much.

[VanguardCharge]

this would be pretty neat but ONLY for those of those who imported our Warden mage

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote..
She thought she saw Jowan for the person that he was; she was willing to risk her position in the Chantry and her own life to save him.  But then he showed us what sort of person he could be: petty and jealous enough of Mage Warden to turn to blood magic, something reviled by the vast majority of Southern Thedas.   She then got a very good picture of him.

How does being a blood mage change Jowan as a person? He is still the same, just a blood mage.

[Willowhugger]

jowan also says he learned it so he could escape with lily, so there's multiple explanations.

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
If templars were a line of defense they would be special forces that are only deployed when something goes wrong, but currently they are jailers for many people who have done nothing wrong. 

Seekers are doing the right thing - rooting out corruption when something actually goes wrong and hunting down dangerous appostate criminals and malificars. Templars on the other hand are a dumb and unethical order. 

I am totally going to say that templars do not perform a vital role.

The templars are as vital as those people who make sure biological and nuclear weapons don't find their way into the hands of people who would use them in the most heavily populated city they can find. Prevention is better than remedy.
Yes, they are jailers but such is what is required. The Seekers only work because most of the mages are already in the Circles.

Tevinter is another extreme, but if the majority of people REALLY are ok with killing off all the mages as an alternative to not having templars, then Tevinter is completely justified in all of their actions. 

Nonsense. All people want is that the subgroup of the population capable of killing them and their families with their minds to not just have unrestricted freedoms.
People have a right to protect themselves and yes, that includes the mages but not only is no one just asking that all mages be killed, what Tevinter does goes well beyond mage protection.
Unless you believe that killing young boys at parties to entertain your guests counts as protecting the life of mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 mars 2013 - 01:45 .

[Willowhugger]

Since Templars can learn magic, I'm all for teaching EVERYONE magic.

FREE MAGIC!
FREE THE CASTLESS!
FREE THE ELVES!

If everyone isn't equal, no one is equal!

Modifié par Willowhugger, 29 mars 2013 - 01:34 .

[erilben]

Willowhugger wrote...

jowan also says he learned it so he could escape with lily, so there's multiple explanations.

There isn't. Jowan was lying. He doesn't confess the truth until you come execute him. He will then admit started to use blood magic before he even met Lily because he thought it would make him a stronger mage than you. He has no reason to be lying anymore at this point.

[BlueMagitek]

Willowhugger wrote...

jowan also says he learned it so he could escape with lily, so there's multiple explanations.

Erilben already explained this.  He already learned blood magic, he just used it for escaping.  He already took that step.

KainD wrote...

How does being a blood mage change Jowan as a person? He is still the same, just a blood mage.

How does being a serial killer change Morinth as a person?  She's still the same, just a murderer.  

It's an act that is seen in Andrastian society as a horrible, despicable thing.  And it shows that he was willing to violate that taboo, when she had previously thought that he would not.  It's a violation of trust, at bare minimum. 

Jowan even admits that blood magic is evil and he makes use of it. 

[Willowhugger]

Eh, I don't see it as a bad thing anyway. Then again, my response to Merill's tribe was, "Everyone here is an idiot but you."

[BlueMagitek]

Well, it's a bad thing when you're in a tower surrounded by Templars and are expected to follow the rule of "Blood Magic is banned".