189 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

Touche.

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...
The templars are as vital as those people who make sure biological and nuclear weapons don't find their way into the hands of people who would use them in the most heavily populated city they can find. Prevention is better than remedy.
Yes, they are jailers but such is what is required. The Seekers only work because most of the mages are already in the Circles.

Prevention is better than remedy as long as inocent people do not suffer in the process, but they do and thus remedy is better in this situation. 

MisterJB wrote...
Nonsense. All people want is that the subgroup of the population capable of killing them and their families with their minds to not just have unrestricted freedoms.
People have a right to protect themselves and yes, that includes the mages but not only is no one just asking that all mages be killed, what Tevinter does goes well beyond mage protection.
Unless you believe that killing young boys at parties to entertain your guests counts as protecting the life of mages.

I cannot get behind this as a person. I would never deny other people their freedom for my safety, even if I would be in some danger, I would take that risk as I would feel myself better knowing my selfishness didn't make anyone suffer. People do not have the right to protect themselves at the expense of others who have done nothing wrong to them or anyone else. 

And because I have this view, people in Thedas that are ok with circle system come across as selfish to me, and thus deserve Tevinter, which is also selfish just like them. Tevinter is not a good society but is justified to in their actions until mundanes treat mages better. Only when mundanes start treating mages better will I see Tevinter as an oppresor and consider it a problem, it is the peoples first step that has to be taken NOT by the mages. 

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...
How does being a serial killer change Morinth as a person?  She's still the same, just a murderer.   

You are right it doesn't, and I liked her as a person. 

BlueMagitek wrote...
It's an act that is seen in Andrastian society as a horrible, despicable thing.  And it shows that he was willing to violate that taboo, when she had previously thought that he would not.  It's a violation of trust, at bare minimum. 

Jowan even admits that blood magic is evil and he makes use of it. 

Comes back to what I said really - Jowan needed to pick lovers better, and be honest with them.

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
Prevention is better than remedy as long as inocent people do not suffer in the process, but they do and thus remedy is better in this situation. 

No, it's not. Imagine if Connor had just been taken to the tower in the first place. Sure, there might be some crying involved but dozens of people would still be alive.
I'm not going to hold the lives of people below the hurt feelings of one woman and one kid.

I cannot get behind this as a person. I would never deny other people their freedom for my safety, even if I would be in some danger, I would take that risk as I would feel myself better knowing my selfishness didn't make anyone suffer. People do not have the right to protect themselves at the expense of others who have done nothing wrong to them or anyone else. 

And because I have this view, people in Thedas that are ok with circle system come across as selfish to me, and thus deserve Tevinter, which is also selfish just like them. Tevinter is not a good society but is justified to in their actions until mundanes treat mages better. Only when mundanes start treating mages better will I see Tevinter as an oppresor and consider it a problem, it is the peoples first step that has to be taken NOT by the mages. 

Even if I were to accept this; which I don't; you're still applying double standards. Since mages were the first opressors, maybe they should take the first step.
But, I don't accept your "logic". The truth; and this is a fact; is that for any society to exist, citizens must have their freedoms restricted. Laws exist not because we've all given evidence of being dangerous but because the possibility that we might be dangerous exists. If a subset of the population is born significantly more dangerous than the rest, it is only logical to demand that their restrictions reflect this.
Mages and non-mages are not equal and it's impossible for them to live as such. It's just reality.
And if anything, the non-mages of Southern Thedas have treated mages far better than could be expected given the circunstances. In our own medieval times, we would have commited genocide the very first day actual magic appeared. In Thedas, mages are taken to luxurious tower and given living conditions far better than the average "free" thedosian peasant.

[Dave of Canada]

She be dead, son.

(or it's extremely likely)

[Xilizhra]

Even if I were to accept this; which I don't; you're still applying double standards. Since mages were the first opressors, maybe they should take the first step.

Er, no. Not in the slightest. The first oppressors happened to be mages, but they oppressed other mages as well as nonmages.

And if anything, the non-mages of Southern Thedas have treated mages far better than could be expected given the circunstances. In our own medieval times, we would have commited genocide the very first day actual magic appeared. In Thedas, mages are taken to luxurious tower and given living conditions far better than the average "free" thedosian peasant.

More likely you'd have tried and failed, since magic never dies. In any case, Thedas has lived with magic for its entire existence; it's hardly surprising that it's used to it.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Er, no. Not in the slightest. The first oppressors happened to be mages, but they oppressed other mages as well as nonmages.

The Chantry seems to be doing a good job opressing non-mages, as well. The only thing that seems to have happened post-Chantry is that mages and non-mage humans swapped social standing. 

Otherwise, elves are still treated like garbage and the counterpart magical (or non-magical) human is at the bottom of the social hierarchy. 

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Er, no. Not in the slightest. The first oppressors happened to be mages, but they oppressed other mages as well as nonmages.

And non-mage Kings and Emperors have also opressed non-mages, both human and elven.
Altough I've never read about nobles feeding random workers to dragonlings so the others will work harder by order of the Emperor.

More likely you'd have tried and failed, since magic never dies..

Sure it does. Since there are families known to be more prone to produce mages, when you find one, just kill the mage and his whole family. It's what we would have done centuries ago.
In modern times, we would be more likely to extablish something close to the Circle System but one thing that we can be sure of, is that we wouldn't be extending civil rigths to the mages.

[Xilizhra]

And non-mage Kings and Emperors have also opressed non-mages, both human and elven.
Altough I've never read about nobles feeding random workers to dragonlings so the others will work harder by order of the Emperor

Well, no. We haven't actually entered Orlais yet. Also, Tevinter doesn't have an emperor.

In modern times, we would be more likely to extablish something close to the Circle System but one thing that we can be sure of, is that we wouldn't be extending civil rigths to the mages.

You would eventually. At least enough so that they're not outright imprisoned.
The thing with the Circle is that it's valid to protect mages from themselves due to issues with possession. It is not, however, valid to imprison them just for having more capabilities than other people. The proper response to that is to increase the protection on other people; train a lot more templars and supplement city guards with them. Although they wouldn't be actual templars, because the Order will have been justly annihilated by this point, just those with similar training.

[andy6915]

Mister JB entered the thread? Well... That's that everyone, this thread is officially on the rails to hell.

Face of Evil wrote...

I stand with Lola! Lily and her awful hairstyle should stay at Aeonar!

Clearly she was some kind of abomination or blood mage. No sane human being would choose to have such ugly hair.

HEY! My female dwarven noble looked good with that, and fit her because it's the most fancy and high-born hairstyle in the game and she's royalty. Take that back!

[MisterJB]

A short sigthed person sees fireballs and demons as the reason mages must be contained.

A far sigthed person realizes that by setting mages free, the only thing you're ensuring is that, within a few generations, they will have taken over the entire infrastructure of society due to the usefulness of magic at which point, non-mages will be second classes citizens who were "unlucky" to be born "disabled" and the mages will just be able to bribe any templars so they can do as they please.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

A short sigthed person sees fireballs and demons as the reason mages must be contained.

A far sigthed person realizes that by setting mages free, the only thing you're ensuring is that, within a few generations, they will have taken over the entire infrastructure of society due to the usefulness of magic at which point, non-mages will be second classes citizens who were "unlucky" to be born "disabled" and the mages will just be able to bribe any templars so they can do as they please.

So... because magic is so useful, it can't be used?

[MisterJB]

It can be used from inside the Circle where we will provide mages with the best possible living conditions.
But give the mages freedom and they will rule society within a few generations. You might not care less but some of us are not so eager to have non-mages become second class citizens.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

It can be used from inside the Circle where we will provide mages with the best possible living conditions.
But give the mages freedom and they will rule society within a few generations. You might not care less but some of us are not so eager to have non-mages become second class citizens.

And this is different from nobles ruling Thedas already how?

[MisterJB]

When did I ever give the impression I have the sligthest love for social distinctions between people based on birth? I don't care for feudalism but commoners such as Loghain have been known to rise to positions of nobility on their merits. His daugther can became the sole ruler of Ferelden.
When was the last time a non-mage became Archon?

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

When did I ever give the impression I have the sligthest love for social distinctions between people based on birth? I don't care for feudalism but commoners such as Loghain have been known to rise to positions of nobility on their merits. His daugther can became the sole ruler of Ferelden.
When was the last time a non-mage became Archon?

Yes... in Ferelden, assuming the king likes them. Also, about two hundred years ago is when I know the last nonmage became archon; I'm not sure about anything later than that.

In any case, social distinctions based on birth are just  how Thedas operates as of now. There's been no impetus by anyone to start a democracy.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, about two hundred years ago is when I know the last nonmage became archon; I'm not sure about anything later than that.

So, basically, when the Chantry forced them to accept non-mages in position of authority.

In any case, social distinctions based on birth are just  how Thedas operates as of now. There's been no impetus by anyone to start a democracy.

And the last thing we need are chevaliers with magic.

[Xilizhra]

So, basically, when the Chantry forced them to accept non-mages in position of authority.

Specifically, they banned mages from positions of authority. But that's a genie you can never permanently return to the bottle in Tevinter.

And the last thing we need are chevaliers with magic.

Really? I thought you'd approve, for the purposes of keeping the damn elves down.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Specifically, they banned mages from positions of authority. But that's a genie you can never permanently return to the bottle in Tevinter.

Specifically, the Chantry tried to free the people of Tevinter while the mages are the ones keeping them enslaved.

Really? I thought you'd approve, for the purposes of keeping the damn elves down.

Please, believing that the elves bear as much of the blame for their conditions as the humans do doesn't mean I don't support equality between humans and elves.
Nice job changing the subject, BTW.

[Xilizhra]

Specifically, the Chantry tried to free the people of Tevinter while the mages are the ones keeping them enslaved.

Lulz. While the magocracy was suspended, slavery was never abolished at all. Nor does the Chantry do anything about slavery in Antiva, or the totally-not-slavery-we-swear-guize in Orlais.

Please, believing that the elves bear as much of the blame for their conditions as the humans do doesn't mean I don't support equality between humans and elves.
Nice job changing the subject, BTW.

I don't believe that magic would significantly change the moral character or danger of chevalier.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Lulz. While the magocracy was suspended, slavery was never abolished at all. Nor does the Chantry do anything about slavery in Antiva, or the totally-not-slavery-we-swear-guize in Orlais.

Slavery is illegal in both Antiva and Orlais. There might be an underground black market but, despite what you might say, the authorities appear to take a firm stance against these crimes. There is a reason Isabela was willing to throw the "cargo" overboard when faced with an imperial ship. Because orlesians hang slavers.

I don't believe that magic would significantly change the moral character or danger of chevalier.

The ability to set others on fire with your mind is not prone to create moral people. It's bad enough that chevaliers have institutionalized privileges, give them magic and you increase the threat they pose to the poor foolk by tenfold.

[Xilizhra]

Slavery is illegal in both Antiva and Orlais. There might be an underground black market but, despite what you might say, the authorities appear to take a firm stance against these crimes. There is a reason Isabela was willing to throw the "cargo" overboard when faced with an imperial ship. Because orlesians hang slavers.

Slavery is illegal in Antiva like blood magic is illegal in Tevinter. When the most powerful political organization in the nation uses it to bolster its numbers with great and open regularity, it really doesn't mean much. As for Orlais, I'm sure they hang ordinary rapists too, and yet.

The ability to set others on fire with your mind is not prone to create moral people. It's bad enough that chevaliers have institutionalized privileges, give them magic and you increase the threat they pose to the poor foolk by tenfold.

It's not prone to create immoral people, either. Also, fire tends to be a public hazard and a danger to everyone; while rape against commoners may be overlooked, mass property damage would probably get the law on their ass remarkably quickly.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Slavery is illegal in Antiva like blood magic is illegal in Tevinter. When the most powerful political organization in the nation uses it to bolster its numbers with great and open regularity, it really doesn't mean much. As for Orlais, I'm sure they hang ordinary rapists too, and yet.

What happens in Antiva can hardly be qualified of slavery. It's social inequalitiy which lead to orphans and the such having nowhere to turn but the Crows.
The Felicisima Armada are slavers but they are considered pirates, not an officialy recognized naval company, after all. We have little information regarding the extent to which is policied in Antiva but we do know that the extinction of slavery in the empire has been one of Empress Celene's goals.

It's not prone to create immoral people, either.

Of course it is. The sad truth is that giving magical powers to random people is far more prone to cause harm than good because humans beings are, ultimately, selfish and greedy. Do you actually believe that giving someone, anyone, the ability to control the minds of others will lead to this person respecting the free will of their fellow humans? Nonsense. I wouldn't trust myself with this power much less a random Joe down the street.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
So... because magic is so useful, it can't be used?

Like any ability that sets you above others (e.g. intelligence), magic will lead to a natural kind of ruling class. The question is whether we want a ruling class of mages, versus say, high IQ individuals with significant commercial sense.