189 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not prone to create immoral people, either.

Think back when you were a kid or when someone ticked your off, did you never have any thoughts about "What if...?" that magic could've granted you? Humans--by nature--are impulsive and selfish beings who will do anything for the sake of survival, give them the advantage andf they'll use it.

A kid being teased would do anything to get back at the bullies.
A starving man would do anything for food.
A betrayed man would do anything for revenge.
A parent would do anything to cure their child.
A commoner would do anything to raise their status.
Someone in the cold would do anything for shelter.

These are the conflicts which people face everyday in Thedas, yet... authorities have full control of them, they have no innate ability to change anything aside from their own capabilities, the only ones which do are mages.

The commoner cannot control the merchant to hand over his wares.

The parent cannot make a deal with a demon to cure their child.

Etc.

It doesn't create immoral people, it creates immoral actions in times of weakness with dire consequence.

[Xilizhra]

What happens in Antiva can hardly be qualified of slavery. It's social inequalitiy which lead to orphans and the such having nowhere to turn but the Crows.

Yes, because buying people, especially small children, is somehow not slavery now.

Of course it is. The sad truth is that giving magical powers to random people is far more prone to cause harm than good because humans beings are, ultimately, selfish and greedy. Do you actually believe that giving someone, anyone, the ability to control the minds of others will lead to this person respecting the free will of their fellow humans? Nonsense. I wouldn't trust myself with this power much less a random Joe down the street.

Selfish and greedy, yes, but most are also law-abiding, and I suspect the number of antisocial people who'd do harm only because of magic, but never with any other capabilities, is rather smaller than you seem to think it is.

Think back when you were a kid or when someone ticked your off, did you never have any thoughts about "What if...?" that magic could've granted you? Humans--by nature--are impulsive and selfish beings who will do anything for the sake of survival, give them the advantage andf they'll use it.

I have those now, still. But most of those people, I could find some way to kill even without magic. I just choose not to.

[WhiteKnyght]

apascone wrote...

What makes this prison so bad? I know it's the second or the worst in thesda but can't remember if any specifics were given.

The Templars probably do everything to that they're believed to do to the Circles.

Also probably the same things that make any prison bad. Crappy food, lack of freedom, uninvited sexual experiences.(And Lily wasn't that bad looking. The Templars probably fed her to the male inmates)

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Selfish and greedy, yes, but most are also law-abiding, and I suspect the number of antisocial people who'd do harm only because of magic, but never with any other capabilities, is rather smaller than you seem to think it is.

Not to say that you're wrong, but you're thinking about it on the wrong scale. Magic isn't about violence - it's about power and status. 

A person with magic won't be like a serial killer - they'll be like a wealthy industrialist. Someone  - effectively - with enough power to alter laws to suit him/her. 

That's the social dillema that Thedas has. The Chantry solution is insane, obviously, but there is a real social problem where everyone has to decide what a just society there is.

I have those now, still. But most of those people, I could find some way to kill even without magic. I just choose not to.

The real issue is temptation, because you can bend reality. What if a loved one is dying, and you could convince a doctor to treat them instead of someone else? That's the ethical dilema behind blood magic. 

[MisterJB]

In Exile is right altough I believe the Chantry solution is as close to "ideal" as we'll get.

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...
But, I don't accept your "logic". The truth; and this is a fact; is that for any society to exist, citizens must have their freedoms restricted. 

That's not a fact, that's complete bull. That's what makes an unhealthy society..  

Oh wait..

Dave of Canada wrote...
Humans--by nature--are impulsive and selfish beings who will do anything for the sake of survival, give them the advantage andf they'll use it.

Holy sh*t. Never mind. Society is dead. 

Edit: I just don't understand why would one even bother doing some discussion on the subject with a life position such as this. Seems everything is simple - people are animals, kill or be killed. Born a human? Kill the mages. Born a mage? Survive and inslave mundanes. Simple - Human "nature". 

Modifié par KainD, 29 mars 2013 - 07:49 .

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

You are right it doesn't, and I liked her as a person. 

Comes back to what I said really - Jowan needed to pick lovers better, and be honest with them.

Yes, but we have discussed your own attitude at length back on the ME 2 board; your Morinth obsession doesn't seem to have wilted despite being completely wrong about her. 

So Jowan is allowed to lie to Lily about something 99% of Southern Thedas would be angry about, and when the truth comes out she's not allowed to break up with him?  Scumbag Jowan is a scumbag.

[Dave of Canada]

Xilizhra wrote...

I have those now, still. But most of those people, I could find some way to kill even without magic. I just choose not to.

But to kill someone, you'd need to overpower them and ultimately hide the fact that you've done such a crime. Mages technically don't have to do that and their powers extend beyond simple murder.

KainD wrote...

Holy sh*t. Never mind. Society is dead. 

Boo hoo. I don't see mages as saints absolved of the temptations everyone else faces.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 mars 2013 - 09:16 .

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Yes, but we have discussed your own attitude at length back on the ME 2 board; your Morinth obsession doesn't seem to have wilted despite being completely wrong about her. 

Wait, wat? No, ME3 actually proved that I was right in a sense. People called her a sociopath, and ME3 came along with a bunch of emails from her to her sisters filled with love and care. It only made my point about her more valid. 
And I am not obssesed with her, she was just my favorite squadmate. 

BlueMagitek wrote...
So Jowan is allowed to lie to Lily about something 99% of Southern Thedas would be angry about, and when the truth comes out she's not allowed to break up with him?  Scumbag Jowan is a scumbag.

Jowan is not in the right here either, as I said both are idiots, and both got what they deserved. I was pissed at him for lying to my PC as well. 

[KainD]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Boo hoo. I don't see mages as saints absolved of the temptations everyone else faces.

Doesn't mean they have to be denied freedom until they have done something wrong. No matter how dangerous it is, no matter how hard it can backfire, mage or not a mage, people are only supposed to be punished after they have done something wrong. 

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
Doesn't mean they have to be denied freedom until they have done something wrong. No matter how dangerous it is, no matter how hard it can backfire, mage or not a mage, people are only supposed to be punished after they have done something wrong. 

Which is why, should the Black Plague ever resurface in Europe, we should not quarantine the people infected with it. It's not their fault they are sick and they don't deserve to be punished because of it regardless of how much it will backfire.
Future generations will thanks us or they would had our population not been wiped out because we allowed the Black Plague to spread. But, at least, we were incredibly ethical which I'm sure makes up for the destruction of our civilization.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 mars 2013 - 10:48 .

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

Wait, wat? No, ME3 actually proved that I was right in a sense. People called her a sociopath, and ME3 came along with a bunch of emails from her to her sisters filled with love and care. It only made my point about her more valid. 
And I am not obssesed with her, she was just my favorite squadmate. 

Jowan is not in the right here either, as I said both are idiots, and both got what they deserved. I was pissed at him for lying to my PC as well.

I recall you telling me that she would stop killing others.  That certainly did not happen.

Then why does Jowan deserve "someone better" than Lily?

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...

Which is why, should the Black Plague ever resurface in Europe, we should not quarantine the people infected with it. It's not their fault they are sick and they don't deserve to be punished because of it regardless of how much it will backfire.
Future generations will thanks us or they would had our population not been wiped out because we allowed the Black Plague to spread. But, at least, we were incredibly ethical which I'm sure makes up for the destruction of our civilization.

If you really are going to compare magic to disease, atleast compare it to a more appropriate one. Mages can live their whole life, never getting possessed and not causing any problems, that could be compared to Hiv. Do we lock up Hiv positive people? No. 

[KainD]

BlueMagitek wrote...
I recall you telling me that she would stop killing others.  That certainly did not happen.

Bioware just killed Morinth off due to her being unpopular. She never appeared in the game (aside from her "corpse"), never talked to Shepard, never was a part of any plot points, so there is nothing to really discuss about what she might have been or done. 

BlueMagitek wrote...
Then why does Jowan deserve "someone better" than Lily?

Because she wasn't pissed at him for being a liar, but was pissed at him for being a blood mage. 

[MisterJB]

Pretty sure there are some people in Southern Africa who would argue with that policy.
If HIV positive people did sh*t like this, we should probrably consider it too.



That's an official illustration, BTW. Bottom line, we quarantine people infected with contagious diseases despite the fact they have done nothing wrong which goes directly against your whole idealistic tirade.

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...

If HIV positive people did sh*t like this, we should probrably consider it too.

1) COULD.
2) Still no.

MisterJB wrote...
Bottom line, we quarantine people infected with contagious diseases despite the fact they have done nothing wrong which goes directly against your whole idealistic tirade.

We quarantine people that DO damage society if not isolated. Not the ones that CAN. You really don't see the difference? 
If a person with a contagious disease will go out in public someone WILL get diseased. That is different from Hiv, and different from mage situation. 

Modifié par KainD, 29 mars 2013 - 11:25 .

[BlueMagitek]

KainD wrote...

Bioware just killed Morinth off due to her being unpopular. She never appeared in the game (aside from her "corpse"), never talked to Shepard, never was a part of any plot points, so there is nothing to really discuss about what she might have been or done.

Because she wasn't pissed at him for being a liar, but was pissed at him for being a blood mage. 

Uh huh.

I'm sure that was a part of it.  Lily was fine with Jowan being a mage, but when it turned out he lied to her and was a blood mage (which he himself admits was evil and wrong) she doesn't stick around.  And while he may have claimed to give up magic afterwards, he'd already betrayed her trust once; it would happen again. 

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
We quarantine people that DO damage society if not isolated. Not the ones that CAN. You really don't see the difference? 
If a person with a contagious disease will go out in public someone WILL get diseased. That is different from Hiv, and different from mage situation. 

If mages are not isolated, they will do plenty of damage to society. Actually, they will take it over.
It doesn't mean that every single mage will but it also didn't take every mage in the world to build Tevinter, cities can be destroyed by a single abomination, etc.
When we are perfectly capable of distinguishing those who will do harm from those who won't, I'll be more than happy to lock up only the former. Meanwhile, we should exercise caution.
As I said before, I'm not about to place the lives of people below the hurt feelings of mages who are offered perfectly acceptable living conditions in the Circle.

[Willowhugger]

I point out that the Fade affects everyone. The Orphanage shows EVERYONE is vulnerable to becoming an abomination or creating Fade tears.

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...
If mages are not isolated, they will do plenty of damage to society. Actually, they will take it over.
It doesn't mean that every single mage will but it also didn't take every mage in the world to build Tevinter, cities can be destroyed by a single abomination, etc.
When we are perfectly capable of distinguishing those who will do harm from those who won't, I'll be more than happy to lock up only the former. Meanwhile, we should exercise caution.
As I said before, I'm not about to place the lives of people below the hurt feelings of mages who are offered perfectly acceptable living conditions in the Circle.

But you do realise that mages that consider circle living conditions unacceptable and value freedom more, are completely justified to become blood mages, inslave people and throw fireballs in your face right? 
In other words, you justify Tevinter with your actions, when it could be viewed as an oppresor, you come in with circle regulations and make the issue grey and make Tevinter just another "valid" side. 

[Dave of Canada]

KainD wrote...


But you do realise that mages that consider circle living conditions unacceptable

Which is why they're idiots. When they live in better living conditions than the majority of Thedas, they're not allowed to complain.

[TheJediSaint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

KainD wrote...


But you do realise that mages that consider circle living conditions unacceptable

Which is why they're idiots. When they live in better living conditions than the majority of Thedas, they're not allowed to complain.

Their standard of living better, certainly, but they do have room to complain about the lack of freedom, particuarly in the more oppressive circles. 

[Dave of Canada]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Their standard of living better, certainly, but they do have room to complain about the lack of freedom, particuarly in the more oppressive circles. 

They can and will complain but should we expect the mundanes to move mountains because they hear about mages being treated badly in one or two circles? I'd say no, a female Orlesian woman would probably say "So?" if a mage approached them and said the Templars raped them simply because Chevaliers do it and have the right to.

Hell, she'd probably laugh at the idea that such Templars could actually be reported to Chantry authorities and be punished for their transgressions. The fact that Thedas itself is a pretty ****ty world basically establishes the mages as spoiled, yearning for a world which they've never experienced and over-glorify.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 mars 2013 - 12:33 .

[TheJediSaint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Their standard of living better, certainly, but they do have room to complain about the lack of freedom, particuarly in the more oppressive circles. 

They can and will complain but should we expect the mundanes to move mountains because they hear about mages being treated badly in one or two circles? I'd say no, a female Orlesian woman would probably say "So?" if a mage approached them and said the Templars raped them simply because Chevaliers do it and have the right to.

Hell, she'd probably laugh at the idea that such Templars could actually be reported to Chantry authorities and be punished for their transgressions. The fact that Thedas itself is a pretty ****ty world basically establishes the mages as spoiled, yearning for a world which they've never experienced and over-glorify.

I don't disagree with that assessment.  But I think that's more an argument to try and make things better for everyone, not just mages.