223 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

ruggly wrote...

Although some people like to headcaon/roleplay it that way.  Wouldn't it make for an exciting headcanon of a future where Shepalyst does get too involved and people start revolting? How would a paragon Shepalyst react compared to a renegade one?

Control is imo the most interesting setting for ME4 despite my canon ending being Destroy.

Imagine a setting where the Sheaper has copied the minds of his squadmates before they died and uploaded them into Reapers in order to preserve one of his moral directives of taking alternative views from minds he trusts into account. Imagine if the Shep-AI starts doing bad stuff causing a rebellion and you have to take out these Garrus and Liara and Tali Reapers. It's like the ultimate sci-fi Shadow of the Colossus.

[Red Panda]

Ascension awaits.

[robertthebard]

AlanC9 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
...and yet, the Catalyst was certainly heavy handed in it's approach to solving the problem it was created to solve.  We don't know how long it took it to come to it's ultimate solution.  We can't know whether or not, over the vastness that is eternity, that ShepAI won't come to the same conclusion.

But over the vastness that is eternity, the ShepAI wouldn't maintain its technological or military superiority anyway. 

Note:  Nowhere in this fictional set up do I claim that it must go this way, or that way.  The fact that the possibility exists is enough for me to not consider the choice.  

How come this one possibility trumps possibilities wher the ShepAI is not only good, but also the ones where he's ecessary to avoid disaster?

It's quite simple really:  I just spent three games fighting the Reapers/Reaper pawns.  If the possibility exists that I could put other civilizations through the exact same turmoil that I just went through, then the end doesn't justify the means.  It could go well for a million years, and then break.  It could never break.  Both are possible, and anything in between is too, but it could break.

Paragon Shep would refuse this option, in my eyes, because of this possibility.

Renegade Shep would refuse this option, in my eyes, because the Reapers have been a thorn in his/her side for 3 years, approximately, and as tempting as being a God might be, it would be much more satisfying to blow them to hell.  As a parting shot, I'd be trying to send Harbinger a message that read, quite simply, "I told your machine ass that I was going to blow you the hell up, and look, I am the harbinger of your destruction"  *shoots the tube*.

[Applepie_Svk]

AlanC9 wrote...



But over the vastness that is eternity, the ShepAI wouldn't maintain its technological or military superiority anyway. 


How come this one possibility trumps possibilities wher the ShepAI is not only good, but also the ones where he's ecessary to avoid disaster?

1. If Reapers once would loose their technological and military superiority then they would loose their status of space police and people would start to ignore them till Shepard would looks like laughable ceasar with his new clothes and someone would punch him to his teeths. That´s why even Reapers will need to follow all the technological fashion and they will need to evolve, which is again funny if we were assuming that Reapers are pinnacle of evolution of both organics and synthetics.

2. Catalyst was created to find a way to presserve all life for any cost and stop the conflict from happening, he was trying to broke a peace - he failed, he was trying to bring a solution - he basically failed, so he found a lazy way to achieve his goal even if it alone meant that he became the same part of problem like the rest of it. He basically without putting much effort into this has created a Reapers and cycles, harvest etc etc... He was always comming from assumption that synthetics and organics have to kill each other because of "reasons", so he used at least last two times synthetics as a cannon fodder and turn them against cycle even if they were either in state of peace amd co-existence or state of non-agression with organics.

[ruggly]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Although some people like to headcaon/roleplay it that way.  Wouldn't it make for an exciting headcanon of a future where Shepalyst does get too involved and people start revolting? How would a paragon Shepalyst react compared to a renegade one?

Control is imo the most interesting setting for ME4 despite my canon ending being Destroy.

Imagine a setting where the Sheaper has copied the minds of his squadmates before they died and uploaded them into Reapers in order to preserve one of his moral directives of taking alternative views from minds he trusts into account. Imagine if the Shep-AI starts doing bad stuff causing a rebellion and you have to take out these Garrus and Liara and Tali Reapers. It's like the ultimate sci-fi Shadow of the Colossus.

Or perhaps some extremist group, remnants of Cerberus or something, saw that Shepard was able to take control of the Reapers, and wants to take that power for themselves.

Oh God, a Garrus reaper and a Shepard Reaper, who can blast the most bottles with giant Reaper beams.

And destroy (as you can see below) is my canon as well, and I think that also leaves a lot of interesting settings for the future.  Power vacuums, mercs running rampant, relays gone for however long it takes to fix them, low resources.  This would really only work for mid to low EMS, though. High EMS shows us a pretty stable future.

Modifié par ruggly, 28 mars 2013 - 04:44 .

[AlanC9]

Applepie_Svk wrote...


1. If Reapers once would loose their technological and military superiority then they would loose their status of space police and people would start to ignore them till Shepard would looks like laughable ceasar with his new clothes and someone would punch him to his teeths.

My Shep would be OK with that; by that time things either would be running OK or the project would be proven unworkable. Yours wouldn't be OK?

I don't see the relevance of point 2.

[AlanC9]

robertthebard wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
How come this one possibility trumps possibilities wher the ShepAI is not only good, but also the ones where he's necessary to avoid disaster?

It's quite simple really:  I just spent three games fighting the Reapers/Reaper pawns.  If the possibility exists that I could put other civilizations through the exact same turmoil that I just went through, then the end doesn't justify the means.  It could go well for a million years, and then break.  It could never break.  Both are possible, and anything in between is too, but it could break

So the important thing is for Shepard to avoid causing such a break himself? Without the ShepAI something else "could break."

[robertthebard]

AlanC9 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
How come this one possibility trumps possibilities wher the ShepAI is not only good, but also the ones where he's necessary to avoid disaster?

It's quite simple really:  I just spent three games fighting the Reapers/Reaper pawns.  If the possibility exists that I could put other civilizations through the exact same turmoil that I just went through, then the end doesn't justify the means.  It could go well for a million years, and then break.  It could never break.  Both are possible, and anything in between is too, but it could break

So the important thing is for Shepard to avoid causing such a break himself? Without the ShepAI something else "could break."

As I pointed out before, if, w/out ShepAI, something breaks, it's free will at work.  Isn't the point of not being Reaperfied to both survive, and maintain free will?  Isn't part of free will the knowing that sometimes, bad things can happen as a result?  We don't live in a totalitarian society now, why would I decide it's better to create one to preserve personal freedoms, instead of allowing those freedoms to grow on their own, even if it meant that some cultures might go to war?  I fought to preserve the galaxy's right to choose their own fates, not for my right to choose what I thought was best for them.

[Applepie_Svk]

AlanC9 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...


1. If Reapers once would loose their technological and military superiority then they would loose their status of space police and people would start to ignore them till Shepard would looks like laughable ceasar with his new clothes and someone would punch him to his teeths.

My Shep would be OK with that; by that time things either would be running OK or the project would be proven unworkable. Yours wouldn't be OK?

I don't see the relevance of point 2.

That´s a problem - Shepalyst is new entity based on old ones - Shepard from one side and Catalyst on the other, while as the Shepard will maybe think as the Catalyst will be unlimited and has also his directive. Control is pretty much just different form of same programing, you are supposed to be a space police and preserving life /even Shepalyst stated it when he said something in lines as "I will ensure voice for everyone"/ if he loose this power and strong species like let´s say Krogans or Turians or any other spieces would become a stronger then Shepalyst, it would not be just a threat to space police but the all other species as well. Therefore Shepalyst has to be stronger than species of cycle or he became weak, and weaklings ? Who ever let a weakling to be leader ? 

Point 2 was much about how wrong something can ends...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 28 mars 2013 - 04:52 .

[AlanC9]

robertthebard wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So the important thing is for Shepard to avoid causing such a break himself? Without the ShepAI something else "could break."

As I pointed out before, if, w/out ShepAI, something breaks, it's free will at work.  Isn't the point of not being Reaperfied to both survive, and maintain free will?  Isn't part of free will the knowing that sometimes, bad things can happen as a result?  We don't live in a totalitarian society now, why would I decide it's better to create one to preserve personal freedoms, instead of allowing those freedoms to grow on their own, even if it meant that some cultures might go to war?  I fought to preserve the galaxy's right to choose their own fates, not for my right to choose what I thought was best for them.

So now it's about free will rather than bad consequences?

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 mars 2013 - 04:58 .

[robertthebard]

AlanC9 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So the important thing is for Shepard to avoid causing such a break himself? Without the ShepAI something else "could break."

As I pointed out before, if, w/out ShepAI, something breaks, it's free will at work.  Isn't the point of not being Reaperfied to both survive, and maintain free will?  Isn't part of free will the knowing that sometimes, bad things can happen as a result?  We don't live in a totalitarian society now, why would I decide it's better to create one to preserve personal freedoms, instead of allowing those freedoms to grow on their own, even if it meant that some cultures might go to war?  I fought to preserve the galaxy's right to choose their own fates, not for my right to choose what I thought was best for them.

So now it's about free will rather than bad consequences?

No.  That bad consequences exist is a reason that I wouldn't choose it.  Free will is a response to:  If you don't choose it, something bad could still happen, and then you can't fix it as GodShep.  I spent three games fighting for the galaxy's right to survive on it's own terms.  So now you're telling me that I should have been doing it in order for the galaxy to survive on Shepard's terms?

[TK514]

In Control, a second war between the galactic nations and the Reapers is inevitable. Governments take a very dim view of other entities using extortion to rob them of sovereignty. Which is exactly what the ShepardAI does. The first time one of the Galactic Powers is in the receiving end of the Reapers' new "play nice" policy will be the last time the galaxy views their new "protectors" as anything but potentially benevolent overlords. And I guarantee that the various nations will continue their research into Anti-Reaper weaponry, up to and including keeping a repaired and rearmed Crucible ready in case it is necessary.

As for the ShepAI, I sincerely doubt it will use words alone to enforce its edicts. It is based off an individual who, even if the were the bluest of blue paragons had no difficulty or moral qualms about resorting to lethal force to further their mission.

Eventually it will come to the point where the galactic nations feel they have closed the technology gap sufficiently that the no longer have to listen, and conflict will erupt again.

[Ridwan]

Control is praying every day that the new Catalyst, the Shepard thingy, won't go bat **** crazy and blow everything up.

[Reorte]

If you want to believe that a machine that wasn't designed to do something like completely, accurately emulate a human being is likely to be capable of doing so, and just happens to have a piece of equipment designed to accurately scan them whilst crudely frying them placed nearby then, erm, I suppose I'd better stop there before I sound too offensive.

[Eterna]

Jadebaby wrote...

Yes, that's right.

Through the last year a numerous amount of times I have thought "well if I wanted *that* ending I could pick control" and every time I thought these things I shook it off immediately as utter rubbish. But since BioWare have gracefully stepped down leaving the glorious product that is Mass Effect 3 before us, and 100% completed no less. I have started to think of control again...

Never mind the fact you're just going from Internet Explorer to Mozilla. The ability to save the most amount of lives without compromising anyone's personal being is very, very tempting. Also disregard the fact that you're side-stepping the issue the same as in Destroy, that is you don't actually solve the "problem" that is laid upon you at the 11th hour. But again, you can still watch from afar as EDI and Joker.. Well, eventually end up killing one another because you didn't solve the problem at all.. But like every other ending, head canon comes into play and one can just imagine this scene play out when GodReaperShep strolls on in and tells them to stop their squabbling or he'll start the cycles again. Just like what would happen if the Geth start misbehaving or something of the like....

The only thing that kind of ruined it for me tbh was the Extended Cut, the creepiness of that epilogue can just not be head-canoned away. Thank goodness I didn't get it on WiiU! Am I right?

Looks like you're content to go out with a pathetic wimper.

[Dean_the_Young]

robertthebard wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So the important thing is for Shepard to avoid causing such a break himself? Without the ShepAI something else "could break."

As I pointed out before, if, w/out ShepAI, something breaks, it's free will at work.  Isn't the point of not being Reaperfied to both survive, and maintain free will?  Isn't part of free will the knowing that sometimes, bad things can happen as a result?  We don't live in a totalitarian society now, why would I decide it's better to create one to preserve personal freedoms, instead of allowing those freedoms to grow on their own, even if it meant that some cultures might go to war?  I fought to preserve the galaxy's right to choose their own fates, not for my right to choose what I thought was best for them.

So now it's about free will rather than bad consequences?

No.  That bad consequences exist is a reason that I wouldn't choose it.  Free will is a response to:  If you don't choose it, something bad could still happen, and then you can't fix it as GodShep.  I spent three games fighting for the galaxy's right to survive on it's own terms.  So now you're telling me that I should have been doing it in order for the galaxy to survive on Shepard's terms?

The galaxy is already surviving on Shepard's terms. Entire species are surviving, or not, or doomed to near-future conflict, based on Shepard's terms.

That ship long ago. It's a a good three games too late to try and claim to want to be the uninvolved actor now.

[Modius Prime]

Lol, control totally goes against the ME themes: diversity, choice, ect. Control and synthesis=bad writing+space magic. I can't count how many times Shep has said that he wanted to destroy the Reapers >.> Even Anderson, the paragon of the trilogy, agrees.

[robertthebard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The galaxy is already surviving on Shepard's terms. Entire species are surviving, or not, or doomed to near-future conflict, based on Shepard's terms.

That ship long ago. It's a a good three games too late to try and claim to want to be the uninvolved actor now.

What?  Shepard is not the Dalatrass of the Salarians, nor the Primarch of the Turians.  These races, and all other Council and non-Council races are still self governed.  How are they existing on Shepard's terms?  In a Destroy ending, the galaxy is messed up, but there is no more threat of Reapers.  So in that sense, it goes back to pre ME 1 conditions with lots of rebuilding to do.  So you are telling me that Shepard was secretly the ruler of the Galaxy even prior to ME 1?

[Jadebaby]

Eterna5 wrote...
Looks like you're content to go out with a pathetic wimper.

Yes, because being the Queen of the universe is a pathetic whimper... lol try harder troll

[KENNY4753]

Control doesnt save everybody. It does save the lives of the Geth but it does make some Geth slaves. Shep just replaces the Catalyst. He/she controls what the Catalyst controlled. Sine there are still Reaper-Controlled Geth out there Shep would control them too. By ME3 logic this makes sense.

So are those Geth really saved? Death seems like it would be better than being a slave, forced to do things against my will. I'd rather be dead. Then I would really be saved.

[Dean_the_Young]

robertthebard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The galaxy is already surviving on Shepard's terms. Entire species are surviving, or not, or doomed to near-future conflict, based on Shepard's terms.

That ship long ago. It's a a good three games too late to try and claim to want to be the uninvolved actor now.

What?  Shepard is not the Dalatrass of the Salarians, nor the Primarch of the Turians.  These races, and all other Council and non-Council races are still self governed.  How are they existing on Shepard's terms?

Because Shepard has made the Big Decisions that have already shaped the direction of galactic development: Rachni, Council dynamics, Krogan Genophage, Geth/Quarian peace, everything upto and including the nature of the Crucible itself. These are terms you set: perhaps not as all-powerful or flexible as you would like, but your terms none the less. No one (in universe) made Shepard pick any of them. All of them have set conditions and consequences that everyone else is going to have to work around and deal with. You cured the genophage? Then everyone's going to have to deal with renewed Krogan expansionism, a fragile balance of powers of Krogan leadership, and a population explosion. You made Geth-Quarian peace? The consequences of Council policy of three hundred years ago is going to be less than fondly remembered now that both ostracized species are united as a major power.

  In a Destroy ending, the galaxy is messed up, but there is no more threat of Reapers.  So in that sense, it goes back to pre ME 1 conditions with lots of rebuilding to do.  So you are telling me that Shepard was secretly the ruler of the Galaxy even prior to ME 1?

Oh, stow the straw men bard. It's your least intelligent retort.

You never needed to be the ruler of the galaxy to determine the fate of species: Destroy alone is taking the ultimate denial of sovereignty away from all synthetics and all civilizations that rely on the galactic status quo to exist. What you do with Control, and how you do it, is no more forceful than any of the other options you forced on the galaxy. You can be oppressive, or you can be as isolated, as you wish.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Because the only way to maintain control is to be in control.

If you're not in control the technology of the galaxy will eventually surpass that of the reapers, and you will no longer be in control. You are the pinnacle of evolution. Well, you thought you were. You will be the emperor or empress of wimp as the new galactic fleets obliterate your cuttlefish, unless you crush them before they are built.

That and you never solve the problem now. So you go out with a whimper.

You want control? You must command the army that none shall dare oppose. You must destroy those who challenge your will, and basically start up the harvest again. You screwed up.

Insert Javik troll face.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 29 mars 2013 - 02:18 .

[Jadebaby]

Each to their own Julia, I believe that whilst in control Shepard could stop all of those things from happening just as Shepard stopped anything that opposed them as a human.

It would be the most stable universe.

[KENNY4753]

Jade? supporting control?

Can somebody say Indoctrination.......

[Eterna]

KENNY4753 wrote...

Jade? supporting control?

Can somebody say Indoctrination.......

She is trolling.