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Bioshock Infinite - Ending Discussion Thread


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#1
OdanUrr

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I'll begin this post by quoting PC Gamer's review who, by the way, rated it 91/100:

PC Gamer wrote...

It’s awkward: I want to tell you why the plot failed for me, but I have to be vague. It has many, many leaps of questionable logic, but the ones that really hurt are when your terrible predicament seems to be the direct consequence of decisions that didn’t make sense at the time.

At one point, your solution to a simple logistical problem is the equivalent of setting off an atom bomb to clear a cobweb. So when anything bad happens from then on, you’re thinking, “Boy, it almost seems like setting off that atom bomb was an insane, unnecessary and irrational thing to do.”

You don’t set off an atom bomb. That was a metaphor.

The worst culprit is the ending. The plot’s final emotional sting is an action that just doesn’t seem like it would achieve anything. It seems to be assuming some new rule about how this world works – but since those rules were never established, any drama that hinges on them feels arbitrary.

That completely deflates the ending’s potentially enormous impact. And not just for me: two other reviewers and I discussed it at length, trying to come up with a compelling version of the logic, and none of us could find one.


I find myself agreeing with this. Bioshock Infinite is a sensory spectacle, from the breathtaking vistas, to the wonderful selection of early 20th century music (and some not so early 20th century music), the dresses, the kinetoscopes, the mentality of the people at the time... it's a wonderfully crafted world that really manages to place you in an alternate version of 1912. The gameplay is also up to par, allowing the player many different ways in which to tackle the game's many enemies (my favourite was probably attacking from the skylines). As for the story itself, fortunately, it was consistent, and the idea of alternate realities was introduced early on. But, in the end, does it all add up together? Personally, I don't think it does.


The story as presented

You're Booker DeWitt, a private eye who's deep in debt with the wrong people and is offered a chance at wiping the slate clean in exchange for bringing back some girl. The catch is this girl is trapped in a city in the clouds (not Cloud City, mind you) called Columbia. You get there by boarding a contraption that seems to be a mix between time machine and space rocket (for the moment, we'll just assume it travels through space and not time).

Columbia seems like an idyllic place, but you soon learn even paradise has an ugly side when you win a raffle to throw the first baseball at an interracial couple. Before you can do anything, however, you're accused of being the "False Shepherd" and so begins your murdering rampage to get to Monument Island and free this Elizabeth character from her warden, a man named Father Compton, who's both the spiritual and political leader of Columbia.

Eventually you free Elizabeth after a close encounter with a giant bird and steal an airship to bring her back to New York but she knocks you out and leaves you at the mercy of a rebel group named the Vox Populi, comprised by the oppressed people of Columbia and led by a woman called Daisy Fitzroy (voiced by none other than Ashley Williams). She proposes a deal, she'll return the airship to you (because you couldn't possibly steal another one) if you go to a man and talk him into supplying weapons for the rebellion. You agree but must first find Elizabeth. You do so and Elizabeth agrees to a truce until you can both get out of Columbia.

NOTE: Before we continue, I should mention that Elizabeth can create and manipulate tears in space and time. Okay, let's resume.

You search for the gunsmithy only to find he was apprehended and killed for his suspected ties to the Vox Populi. Well, surely we must find alternate means of transportation then, right? No, the Lutece (they're a brother and sister, physicists both, whose area of expertise are quantum mechanics) show up and "explain" that while the gunsmithy might be dead in this universe, he's still alive in another, so it's a simple matter of traveling to another universe and getting the guns from him... um, sure (I'll leave the analysis for later on). So they travel to this alternate universe and find the gunsmithy was released but his tools were taken instead. So now we need to recover his tools. We find the tools but also realize they're a little on the large and heavy side so we can't move them. What do we do then? Create another tear in space-time and travel to a universe where the Vox Populi are finally armed and dangerous. Once there, Booker decides to look up Fitzroy so she can fulfill her end of the bargain (um, is this the same Fitzroy... okay, later).

In this latest universe, Columbia has been pretty much torn apart by civil war, and the Vox Populi are no better than Comstock's armies, pillaging stores and executing people on the streets. For a while though they're on your side since you're Booker DeWitt, martyr of the revolution. Yes, in this universe, when Booker got to Monument Island it was deserted, Elizabeth having been transferred to Comstock House. Since Booker couldn't storm the place on his own, he decided a revolution was exactly what he needed but, unfortunately, he died before he could ever rescue (or even meet) Liz. As luck would have it, Fitzroy was present during your death and decides your apparent resurrection complicates things so she promptly orders the Vox Populi to kill you (but what about my airship?:crying:).

Now you have to face off against Comstock's and Fitzroy's armies both. You do so, kill Fitzroy (actually, Liz does that when Fitzroy tries to kill a child), and try to escape aboard some airship (oh, there was more than one?) but the bird strikes back and prevents your escape. The plan now calls for finding some way to stop the damn bird and you figure Comstock House is where you'll find your answer. Along the way you learn that Liz may be Comstock's illegitimate daughter and that he was grooming her to be his successor and reduce New York to cinders. Before you get there, however, you're attacked by the bird again who takes Liz and leaves you for dead.

You chase after Liz and reach some sort of asylum. Apparently, more time has passed than you realized and, during that time, an operation was performed on Liz to prevent her from tearing apart the multiverse. Since Booker couldn't have been unconscious for more than a few hours or days at the most (he would've died otherwise), I'm assuming Booker was transported to yet another universe (it's confirmed later on). In this universe, Booker never managed to rescue Liz because he was most likely dead (possibly a universe where the bird left Booker for dead because he was actually dead). Having lost all hope at being rescued, she acquiesced and turned into Comstock's successor, laying waste to New York. Booker meets this older version of Liz who explains she brought you here so that you could prevent it from happening in some other universe (at this point, I'm not sure what universe you started from).

She promptly transports you back to this other universe where you're just in time to prevent Liz's operation. Liz decides to push on for Comstock and you acquiesce (although at this point you'd be more than happy to go to Paris). You eventually find Comstock and kill him, though not before he spouts some nonsense about Liz's missing finger. Liz asks what he meant by that but you don't have a clue. Instead, Liz and Booker hatch a plan to destroy Monument Island since it's actually a machine that prevents Liz from having full access to her space-time bending powers. For some reason, they both think that if the machine is destroyed, they'll have their answer (can't we just go to Paris?).

Fast forward and the machine is destroyed. What's the answer? Well, Booker actually had a daughter named Anna whom he sold to the Lutece/Comstock to square away a debt (what debt?). Remorse kicked in and he tried to recover his daughter but she was smuggled away to another universe, though not before the portal cut off one of her fingers. For some reason, the Lutece later offered Comstock a chance at redemption and his mind created a scenario where he actually had to rescue a girl named Elizabeth in order to cancel his debt. Thus we reach the beginning of the game.

At some point in his life, Booker was offered the chance to be baptized. In some, he refused and stayed Booker DeWitt; in others, he agreed and became Zachary Comstock. The game, through Anna/Elizabeth, tells us that Booker needs to die at the moment of his baptism so that he'll never become Comstock who'll eventually succeed and groom Elizabeth into his instrument of destruction. Anna/Elizabeth then proceeds to drown Booker.

The end.

(The scene after the credits is pretty much non-descript.)


My thoughts

I don't even know where to begin. The catalyst for all the space-time traveling seems to be Booker's decision to perform Fitzroy's little errand in exchange for the airship, even though Booker doesn't believe Fitzroy will keep her end of the bargain. As Booker and Liz find more and more obstacles they decide to space-time travel around them instead of simply searching for alternate means of transportation. Even after they get their hands on an airship, another obstacle presents itself in the form of the giant bird that apparently can't be destroyed with conventional weaponry.

As for Booker's baptism, why shouldn't Zachary Comstock exist? Yes, some Zachary Comstocks will be evil but some will be good; some will create Columbia while others won't; he may rise to become a great leader or simply a reformed man. All of these versions of Zachary Comstock exist in different universes. We can take it further though. In some universes, Booker was never even faced with the prospect of baptism; in others, he had a boy or no child at all; in others, he died at Wounded Knee or during the Boxer Rebellion; in others, he became a gold prospector and turned into a millionaire... ad infinitum. The problem is that, while the game proposes the idea of multiple universes, it contradicts itself by stating they're all tied together by the same events and that is simply not true.

Rodney Explains the Multiverse

The Theory of Parallel Universes in Stargate SG-1

The gist of it is always the same: there's an alternate version of our universe for every choice that we make. Some may be remarkably similar, some may be altogether different, and some may lie somewhere in between. To categorically state that all universes are connected to a single event runs contrary to the theory itself.

Another problem is that the game never explores how Zachary Comstock eventually becomes Father Comstock, prophet and leader of Columbia. Throughout the game he claims he had visions and such. Furthermore, where did he acquire the technical prowess to build something like Columbia? My guess is he recruited Rosalind Lutece for the job and they both started peering into the future to acquire the necessary knowledge. But if he could already look into the future, why did he need Elizabeth? It doesn't look like he wanted her for her space-time mending abilities since he neutralizes those so, what did he want with her? Was it some kind of twisted remose that led him to steal his child from another version of himself?

How's Liz even able to manipulate space-time? Was she born with that ability? Was it a result of experiments on her? If so, why? After all, Comstock operates on her to negate that ability.

And what about the Luteces? They seem to be running an experiment of their own, but to what end? The game tells us that Rosalind brought her "brother" (who's probably an alternate version of Rosalind herself) from another universe, but what for?

In the end, there are so many questions and so very few answers. I applaud the creators for daring to approach an era that existed in American history, if in a steampunk-like setting while broaching the subject of quantum mechanics. It's a breath of fresh air even if you're still required to kill hordes of people. But when it comes to the ending, it simply doesn't make sense. It's unnecessarily complex, trying to use a theory it doesn't fully comprehend. Perhaps the problem lies with the type of game itself. More often that not, FPS games have a linear story that culminates in a single ending whereas Bioshock Infinite could (and probably should) have profited from having your choices impact actual gameplay and even shape the ending in some form. Otherwise, what we have is an illusion of choice, running contrary to the concept of parallel universes which is the core of the experience. And I haven't even addressed the problem of the "travel back in time to kill your father" paradox.

So, is Bioshock Infinite a good game? Yes, I enjoyed it quite a bit. Is the ending the most amazing thing you've ever seen and you should bow down to Ken Levine's infinite wisdom? Well, I would caution against it.

After all, you've seen what happened to Columbia.;)


Where's my airship?

I almost forgot. Booker's commitment to getting Fitzroy's guns propels us from one universe to the next. Doesn't that defeat the point of getting back the airship from Fitzroy? Think about it, while the gunsmith may be alive in another universe, does that mean he'll supply the much-needed guns? Or that Fitzroy even has a deal with Booker in this universe? Or that Fitzroy or a rebellion even exist? I suppose one could suggest that Elizabeth is creating universes very similar to the one we start from, but why does neither character ponder this? Wouldn't it be easier to find an alternate means of transport than mess with the space-time continuum?


Links of interest

PCGamer's Bioshock Infinite Review

An Attempt to Understand BioShock Infinite's Brilliant and Bizarre Ending

BioShock Infinite Ending Explained (by Ian Boswell)

Modifié par OdanUrr, 29 mars 2013 - 09:31 .


#2
TheClonesLegacy

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As far as I can tell the act of drowning Booker via multiple versions of his Daughter would've caused a Time Paradox that collapsed the Multiverse (hence the cut to credits). What we see after the credits is probably just a new Multiverse created by a new big bang, where things could be different.
Had the game given you the choice of different endings like you suggested, it would've defeated what the game and the concept of a Multiverse flat out tell you, that being, all choices are meaningless.

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 27 mars 2013 - 05:29 .


#3
Jaison1986

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That's why I don't like multiverse stories, they get so overly complicated that they become irrational at one point. The ending leaves too many questions to be answered and that's usually not an good thing. What bother me the most is that apparently Brook death's cause all other universes to collapse, including the one from Bishock 1 and 2, causing our actions in both games to become meaningless. It doesn't matter if you play both games, your actions in both of them will be erased from existance. And then we have the little post endig scene, that indicates that apparently Brooks death changes nothing, as he is back to the room with his daughter, so even if his death erased the previous universes, this new version of Brook we have here might as well start everything all over again. Turning the events of the entire series of an big endless loop. This means we players never truly accomplished nothing in the bioshock series. How are we supposed to feel about that?

#4
OdanUrr

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TheClonesLegacy wrote...

As far as I can tell the act of drowning Booker via multiple versions of his Daughter would've caused a Time Paradox that collapsed the Multiverse (hence the cut to credits). What we see after the credits is probably just a new Multiverse created by a new big bang, where things could be different.
Had the game given you the choice of different endings like you suggested, it would've defeated what the game and the concept of a Multiverse flat out tell you, that being, all choices are meaningless.


But choices aren't meaningless in the multiverse, they create parallel universes.

#5
Jaison1986

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Oh sorry, double post.

Modifié par Jaison1986, 27 mars 2013 - 05:39 .


#6
OdanUrr

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I updated the OP with something I intended to address but completely forgot about later on: Booker and Liz creating multiple universes to honor a deal that might not even exist.

#7
OdanUrr

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Jaison1986 wrote...

That's why I don't like multiverse stories, they get so overly complicated that they become irrational at one point. The ending leaves too many questions to be answered and that's usually not an good thing. What bother me the most is that apparently Brook death's cause all other universes to collapse, including the one from Bishock 1 and 2, causing our actions in both games to become meaningless. It doesn't matter if you play both games, your actions in both of them will be erased from existance. And then we have the little post endig scene, that indicates that apparently Brooks death changes nothing, as he is back to the room with his daughter, so even if his death erased the previous universes, this new version of Brook we have here might as well start everything all over again. Turning the events of the entire series of an big endless loop. This means we players never truly accomplished nothing in the bioshock series. How are we supposed to feel about that?


That's interesting. Currently, my view on the after-the-credits scene is that Anna/Elizabeth couldn't drown Booker because that would cause a paradox, so the game takes us back to a setting where Booker's alive with Anna. Regardless, it does kind of make your actions irrelevant.

#8
TheClonesLegacy

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OdanUrr wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

As far as I can tell the act of drowning Booker via multiple versions of his Daughter would've caused a Time Paradox that collapsed the Multiverse (hence the cut to credits). What we see after the credits is probably just a new Multiverse created by a new big bang, where things could be different.
Had the game given you the choice of different endings like you suggested, it would've defeated what the game and the concept of a Multiverse flat out tell you, that being, all choices are meaningless.


But choices aren't meaningless in the multiverse, they create parallel universes.

And? How does that make your choice matter and have meaning?
It's like saying "Don't worry about your sisters death via that drunk driving accident, her corpse will make great fertilizer for my Turnip garden".

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 27 mars 2013 - 05:59 .


#9
OdanUrr

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TheClonesLegacy wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

As far as I can tell the act of drowning Booker via multiple versions of his Daughter would've caused a Time Paradox that collapsed the Multiverse (hence the cut to credits). What we see after the credits is probably just a new Multiverse created by a new big bang, where things could be different.
Had the game given you the choice of different endings like you suggested, it would've defeated what the game and the concept of a Multiverse flat out tell you, that being, all choices are meaningless.


But choices aren't meaningless in the multiverse, they create parallel universes.

And? How does that make your choice matter and have meaning?


Because it means the outcome will vary according to your choices?:huh:

#10
TheClonesLegacy

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You and I definitely have a different perspective on what a meaningful choice is.
But whatever, dosen't matter.

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 27 mars 2013 - 06:15 .


#11
OdanUrr

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TheClonesLegacy wrote...

You and I definitely have a different perspective on what a meaningful choice is.
But whatever, dosen't matter.


It matters to me. Do you mean to say that our choices don't matter because every possible combination has already been accounted for in a parallel universe?

#12
TheClonesLegacy

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OdanUrr wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

You and I definitely have a different perspective on what a meaningful choice is.
But whatever, dosen't matter.


It matters to me. Do you mean to say that our choices don't matter because every possible combination has already been accounted for in a parallel universe?

Yeah actually, I am.

#13
OdanUrr

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TheClonesLegacy wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

You and I definitely have a different perspective on what a meaningful choice is.
But whatever, dosen't matter.


It matters to me. Do you mean to say that our choices don't matter because every possible combination has already been accounted for in a parallel universe?

Yeah actually, I am.


I suppose it's just two sides of the same coin. On the one hand, you could argue choices do matter because they create unique universes of their own. On the other hand, you could argue that every possible choice has already been made and you're simply choosing the universe that fits your character best. It's a bit like thinking we, as individuals, don't matter because we're just a tiny speck of dust in the vast sea of space-time (which is true).

#14
Mylia Stenetch

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OdanUrr wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

You and I definitely have a different perspective on what a meaningful choice is.
But whatever, dosen't matter.


It matters to me. Do you mean to say that our choices don't matter because every possible combination has already been accounted for in a parallel universe?

Yeah actually, I am.


I suppose it's just two sides of the same coin. On the one hand, you could argue choices do matter because they create unique universes of their own. On the other hand, you could argue that every possible choice has already been made and you're simply choosing the universe that fits your character best. It's a bit like thinking we, as individuals, don't matter because we're just a tiny speck of dust in the vast sea of space-time (which is true).


All the choices you want to have at the "end" of the game, has already been done and been accounted for. That is why Comstock is like a prophet since every possible chance at point "X" which is the baptism has already been accounted for. Where there is the two main parrallel universes that sprang from that one point which would lead to disater in each senario. Wheather is it the slaughter of all on Columbia by the Vox, Comstock destroying New York.

If they gave you a choice it would only be a pure illusion, since you as playing as Dewitt saw they two main paths you would choose from if they give you one, which lead to ruin. The way to "save the world" or the other worlds is for you to never live. I think the ending worked, this helped by getting a tonne of the Voxophones, and looking back at some of the foreshadowing they did in the game.

Also one of the Forbes contributor on it:

http://www.forbes.co...bizarre-ending/

#15
NeonFlux117

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The multiverse and string theory are great and all. And infinite does a very good job explaining these things but, although the end is epic and amazing, there are questions I have. Like for one, how did Elizabeth gain these powers? Who or what is Songbird? Also, was it all inside Dewitt's head? The scene after the credits alludes to not only a multiverse theory but possibly was all of this in Brooker's head. The date on the paper is I believe 1883 or 93, but either way it's well before the events of infinite and perhaps the event of Elizabeth being taken.

The ending was phenomenal and nothing short of brilliant. I really like all the different layers. It's interpretive by nature but also gives proper closure within the lore and narrative of the story- and I like the jab at Bioshock 1- "city under water. How stupid" that was funny. But I enjoyed the endings. And you gotta like "Evil" Elizabeth mentioning indoctrination. Kinda funny. Just another layer I suppose, lol.

Levine truly is a great writer. I loved the ending and the game. Easily, one of the best games I've ever played. I just wish we could know more about Songbird- I can't help but think there's quite a back-story there. Maybe in future DLC we'll get a Songbird origins story.

#16
OdanUrr

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Mylia Stenetch wrote...

All the choices you want to have at the "end" of the game, has already been done and been accounted for. That is why Comstock is like a prophet since every possible chance at point "X" which is the baptism has already been accounted for. Where there is the two main parrallel universes that sprang from that one point which would lead to disater in each senario. Wheather is it the slaughter of all on Columbia by the Vox, Comstock destroying New York.

If they gave you a choice it would only be a pure illusion, since you as playing as Dewitt saw they two main paths you would choose from if they give you one, which lead to ruin. The way to "save the world" or the other worlds is for you to never live. I think the ending worked, this helped by getting a tonne of the Voxophones, and looking back at some of the foreshadowing they did in the game.

Also one of the Forbes contributor on it:

http://www.forbes.co...bizarre-ending/


The problem is that, according to the multiverse theory, there are realities where even if you were baptized, you don't build a Columbia, or you don't kidnap Anna, or you don't destroy New York. In other words, your baptism (in some universes you weren't even offered the chance to be baptized) leads to ruin in some universes but doesn't in others.

#17
MarchWaltz

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I enjoyed the entire game and ending.

I am just not going to think about it and just the the ending at face value; so literally, I am prescribing to the saying:

"It makes sense if you do not think about it"

#18
OdanUrr

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MarchWaltz wrote...

I enjoyed the entire game and ending.

I am just not going to think about it and just the the ending at face value; so literally, I am prescribing to the saying:

"It makes sense if you do not think about it"


If it works for you, I'm not going to spoil your fun. Simply disregard what I wrote in the OP.:D

#19
Savber100

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http://ps3.mmgn.com/...-explained-what

This article pretty much sums up what I had trouble understanding the ending.

#20
Khayness

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It is a great game, but sadly my previous knowledge acquired by multiple universe stories pretty much prepared me for it. I think BioShock 1 integrated the twists into the narrative better. The after credits scene seemed like they just ticked a box on the Great Mind**** Story Element list. I felt it was unnecessary.

#21
Milan92

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Elizabeth: "He is Comstock!"

Elizabeth 2: "He is Booker DeWitt"

Booker/Comstock: "No........I'm Batman!" 

:P

Modifié par Milan92, 28 mars 2013 - 03:09 .


#22
OdanUrr

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Milan92 wrote...

Elizabeth: "He is Comstock!"

Elizabeth 2: "He is Booker DeWitt"

Booker/Comstock: "No........I'm Batman!" 

:P


I know I've read that one before.:D

#23
Luxorek

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After credits scene was like the spinning top from Inception. Open to interpretation and debated forever and ever. And they did exactly for that purpose - to make people think and talk about it.

Anyhow, there is a different thing that bothers me now. I always judge games on the basis of what I get. Always. But yesterday I watched all those previous Bioshock Infinite gameplays that were released. It's interesting to see how the concept of the game has changed over time.

You remember the first gameplay ? The one with that Saltonstall guy ? Not only did they scrap that section, but the guy is missing from the story except his surname being said a few times and his severed head at one point. Not to mention that the theme of the game was entirely different - it was plain madness. I mean just watch it - a guy adressing empty chairs, woman sweeping in a burning building, bar scene. I guess at one point they must have realised that its too similar to the first Bioshock, and went back to the concept board. Hell, Elisabeth had some real super powers [which apparently put a strain on her] and tears were not present.

Then there is the other gameplay, the one with a store and Lincoln toys. The fact that Lincoln was there seems to indicate that the whole race stuff was added pretty late into the game. In the game that we've got, good ol' Abe is vilified for his part in freeing the slaves. And do you remember that part with the postman ? The only choice that we get in the game is the one with the interracial couple, but it seems to me there was more of things like that initially and they just scrapped that too. I guess time restraints, money and all that.

Then there is Songbird ! God, it's just a wasted potential. I remember hearing Ken Levine talking about how our interactions with Songbird would shape our relation with Elisabeth. But that's not present in the game, goddammit ! It's seems to me that Songbird went from a plot point to a gimmick. Let's be honest, that's what he is in the game now.

That's why I hope that the season pass will give them time to work on some stuff that didn't make into final gime.

#24
Milan92

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This should have been the song during the scene where its revealed that Booker is Comstock followed by the credits! :P

#25
TheJediSaint

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The game overall was great, but the ending reeked of someone trying to be more clever than they really were.