224 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Topsider wrote...

I like his comments about Isabela. Yeah, she was sexualized - and it was intentional. Quite right too. I can't even imagine her dressing any other way, to be honest. It suited her character perfectly. The voice actress also did a great job. However, the overly large breasts are a bit excessive and give the impression that Isabela is male eye candy. umm, they don't even look natural...

I installed a mod that gave her black pants and a gray top and kerchief.  I can't imagine her dressing any other way, as she looks like a sexy pirate, rather than a pirate themed hoo...umm, person who forgot to put on pants

[JediHealerCosmin]

fchopin wrote...

I get an error message on the link.

The site is undergoing some maintenance. Give it some time and try again later

[Dutchess]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Sebastian (I'm too holy to hold hands)

*sniff*  My poor fangirl heart.

[HolyAvenger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have a feeling there is more, but I think I've made a decent argument. The only two female examples are Samara (again, not female and it human) and then Aveljne and Wynne, who would not be considered "traditionally" attractive. 

 

The immense irony of listing Varric and Sten, but discounting Samara is hilarious. The whole asari race is one massive amount of fanservice, so making Samara not romanceable WAS breaking the mould. 

Don't treat my attraction to Aveline with such contempt. Mmm glamazons:wub:

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

As a disclaimer, I would not consider a 1,000 year old blue, mono-gendered alien without hair but big boobs (Samara) who shuts you down because of a samurai code to be "female" in this case.

 

"Here's an example that fits perfectly in my description, but I'm going to ignore it because...reasons."

FWIW I'll agree that BioWare is generally more progressive than most of the industry (in fact, probably the most progressive in the industry) but they still have a ways to go.

 

A ways to go for what, exactly?

 

...things! Important things!

The idea that Bioware has the mindset, according to this interview, of including more gamers of varying sexes and sexuality. In order to make all members of these groups feel at ease and comfortable, there is "more to be done."

And, in terms of Samara, she is neither human nor female, so I am not sure what exactly her behaviors do to advance either the feeling of including women or making them anything more than companion sexbots. If Bioware made a game with an Isabella companion who could not be digitally sexed, then that might be a step to breaking this mold.

And in regard to males you cannot have sex with, here are the following:

Varric (smooth talking, hairy chested dude

Vega (for all the fans of buff, spray tan type)

Sebastian (I'm too holy to hold hands)

 Mordin (the guy is a genius, is funny and can sing - tell me that doesn't make him attractive to some ladies)

Sten (big, huge, tan warrior with dreds... I've seen a few female fan fics to see where this is going)

I have a feeling there is more, but I think I've made a decent argument. The only two female examples are Samara (again, not female and it human) and then Aveljne and Wynne, who would not be considered "traditionally" attractive. 

See, I don't agree with that.

If you really want my honest opinion...and I hate to say it, but it seems to me like a small group of fans being overly sensitive to something that is not there.

The uproar with Isabela is a great example because its playing on the surface looks of a character that is designed to be sexually alluring because of her character, which is what David said basically. It is why I give Triss a pass in The Witcher 2 as well, she uses the sex like a weapon as well, which is all fair and, quite frankly, not even sexist to say because people do that in real life. 

If we are talking about females you can't romance, well, the question then is what is the ratio of females/males for the games first off? Origins we had only 3 female companions out of 9 (Shale doesn't count technically) and in Dragon Age II again only 3 for certain out of seven, not including the Hawke siblings. So the ratio is usually a smaller amount of women in the party over men, which can be good or bad, depending on how they are written.

I don't know. For me this seems like much ado about nothing. To say that they are being progressive yet are not there yet seems a bit discrediting to me, considering the quality of companions we have seen from BioWare thus far.

I guess I need to generally ask, does anyone actually feel uncomfortable playing the games because of the depiction of women or men in them? Or is it mostly surface reactions that we are referring to our general dislike for?  If its the former, then I would say you may have a point that there is a ways to go. If its the latter, then its mostly in the minds eye and an issue with sensativity. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 28 mars 2013 - 03:41 .

[Adanu]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

[Knight of Dane]

You couldn't romance Velanna or Sigrun.

I didn't really want to either way, but still.

[Xilizhra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

As a disclaimer, I would not consider a 1,000 year old blue, mono-gendered alien without hair but big boobs (Samara) who shuts you down because of a samurai code to be "female" in this case.

So how often are you going to move those goalposts?

Also, Bethany. And Tallis. Also, Velanna and Sigrun. And I think you're cheating a bit with the "classically attractive" part to exclude Aveline.

[Fast Jimmy]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have a feeling there is more, but I think I've made a decent argument. The only two female examples are Samara (again, not female and it human) and then Aveljne and Wynne, who would not be considered "traditionally" attractive. 

 

The immense irony of listing Varric and Sten, but discounting Samara is hilarious. The whole asari race is one massive amount of fanservice, so making Samara not romanceable WAS breaking the mould. 

Don't treat my attraction to Aveline with such contempt. Mmm glamazons:wub: 

I liked Aveline, too. She was a hard ass. But she has a jaw that would make Stallone jealous.

And to be honest, so did Samara (and her daughter Morinth). I'm standing by my "not human and not female" line. Of course, by that logic, I should have removed my joke Mordin reference from the male list.

[Dutchess]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

As a disclaimer, I would not consider a 1,000 year old blue, mono-gendered alien without hair but big boobs (Samara) who shuts you down because of a samurai code to be "female" in this case.

So how often are you going to move those goalposts?

Also, Bethany. And Tallis. Also, Velanna and Sigrun. And I think you're cheating a bit with the "classically attractive" part to exclude Aveline.

None of those really count, imo. Bethany is your sister, so including her for romance would have been... icky. Tallis was a temporary companion for three hours, and you did get plenty of opportunities to express your interest in her in that short time. Velanna and Sigrun are Awakening companions, and Awakening had no romance at all, neither male nor female.

[Knight of Dane]

renjility wrote...
Velanna and Sigrun are Awakening companions, and Awakening had no romance at all, neither male nor female.

Exactly. The point still stands.

[Xilizhra]

I suppose, to be fair, that I should point out that Samara actually can be romanced... albeit only in the Citadel DLC, it doesn't give you Paramour, and she still doesn't promise anything. You can, however, get a kiss.

Sebastian, however, you can have sex with in the rivalry romance, IIRC. At least eventually, even if not on-screen. Also, I have no idea why he discounted Wynne but included Mordin, who's just as old, as well as being a humanoid salamander. Sten's personality I find heinously unattractive, so I couldn't say for him.

[HolyAvenger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have a feeling there is more, but I think I've made a decent argument. The only two female examples are Samara (again, not female and it human) and then Aveljne and Wynne, who would not be considered "traditionally" attractive. 

 

The immense irony of listing Varric and Sten, but discounting Samara is hilarious. The whole asari race is one massive amount of fanservice, so making Samara not romanceable WAS breaking the mould. 

Don't treat my attraction to Aveline with such contempt. Mmm glamazons:wub: 

I liked Aveline, too. She was a hard ass. But she has a jaw that would make Stallone jealous.

And to be honest, so did Samara (and her daughter Morinth). I'm standing by my "not human and not female" line. Of course, by that logic, I should have removed my joke Mordin reference from the male list.

 

"What Fast Jimmy finds attractive" is a terrible foundation for an argument. Feel free to stand by it of course. And your nonsensical exclusion of asari despite the fact they are for all intents and purposes human enough (much like, I dunno, Merrill). 

[syllogi]

I appreciate the sentiments expressed in the interview, but agreed on the long way to go thing. When DA2 left out the entire female sex of dwarves, it was assumed to be because of resources...but it would somehow have been beyond the pale to leave out male dwarves, and I have to conclude it's because male still equals "default" and "normal." I'm not saying they should have taken all dwarves out if we couldn't have female dwarves, but it does bear noting that erasing males for such a reason is unheard of. Mass Effect may have the asari, but they were created specifically to be attractive, while it was even admitted that turian females were not in the first two games or main campaign of ME3 because the ME devs couldn't think of a way to make them "sexy." So yeah, when females exist or do not exist based on whether they're sexually appealing, (and let's face it, there's a good chance female dwarves weren't considered attractive enough for a role in DA2, even though it's never been stated), and it's apparently accepted that males are default and no females are needed, even if only in minor roles, that's a problem.

My other issue is with the comments about Isabela, not in this article, but what's been said here and elsewhere again and again. We can't have it both ways. If we, as a society, tell each other that we do not judge people by the way they dress, and we can't harass or stereotype a woman for wearing a short dress and baring cleavage, then it's not okay to use "her outfit suits her" to shut down any discussion of her appearance, and whether it's actually necessary to her character. There are millions of women in the world who have large breasts and don't want it assumed that they're promiscuous. It's totally possible to write a character like Isabela who chooses to wear armor into battle, or at least change her clothes occasionally in seven years. And I still contend that if she *really* wanted to wear the same clothes all the time, she wouldn't be worried that she needs a bath. I'd be pretty worried about my hygiene too.

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

As a disclaimer, I would not consider a 1,000 year old blue, mono-gendered alien without hair but big boobs (Samara) who shuts you down because of a samurai code to be "female" in this case.

So how often are you going to move those goalposts?

Also, Bethany. And Tallis. Also, Velanna and Sigrun. And I think you're cheating a bit with the "classically attractive" part to exclude Aveline.

Awakening characters should not apply, since no one was romanceable. If Bioware made a full game without romances, I would be ecstatic. But in this case, if no one is romanceable, male or female, good looking of plain, then it is not fair to use it as ammunition for any argument. After all, you'll notice my list of males did not include Nathaniel. 

Tallis was a temporary companion, a type of companion we've never been able to romance. Of any sex. 

And, again, I like Aveline, but if you put her next to Isabella or Merrill (as the game often did), she was not the same type of traditionally attractive female. I am not downing her looks, but again... not traditionally attractive. You won't see any Victoria's Secret models with her generalized appearance. 

[Saberchic]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

That's how they fixed it. Since they already released pics of a very "ample" Bethany, they decided to make fun of what they did, so it was treated as a joke. 

edit: quoting issues

Ok.

So why do they have to address it again?

Because they obviously saw nothing wrong with it until a lot of people called them out on it. The exaggerated Bethany was their automatic go-to visual.

[Dutchess]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sebastian, however, you can have sex with in the rivalry romance, IIRC. At least eventually, even if not on-screen.

Really? I have never heard of that. I've seen him propose a political marriage when rivaled, but he doesn't even seem to like Hawke in that scenario.

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

As a disclaimer, I would not consider a 1,000 year old blue, mono-gendered alien without hair but big boobs (Samara) who shuts you down because of a samurai code to be "female" in this case.

So how often are you going to move those goalposts?

Also, Bethany. And Tallis. Also, Velanna and Sigrun. And I think you're cheating a bit with the "classically attractive" part to exclude Aveline.

Awakening characters should not apply, since no one was romanceable. If Bioware made a full game without romances, I would be ecstatic. But in this case, if no one is romanceable, male or female, good looking of plain, then it is not fair to use it as ammunition for any argument. After all, you'll notice my list of males did not include Nathaniel. 

Tallis was a temporary companion, a type of companion we've never been able to romance. Of any sex. 

And, again, I like Aveline, but if you put her next to Isabella or Merrill (as the game often did), she was not the same type of traditionally attractive female. I am not downing her looks, but again... not traditionally attractive. You won't see any Victoria's Secret models with her generalized appearance. 

And bethany? 

[ObserverStatus]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

So how often are you going to move those goalposts?
Also, Bethany. And Tallis. Also, Velanna and Sigrun. And I think you're cheating a bit with the "classically attractive" part to exclude Aveline.

Awakening characters should not apply, since no one was romanceable. If Bioware made a full game without romances, I would be ecstatic. But in this case, if no one is romanceable, male or female, good looking of plain, then it is not fair to use it as ammunition for any argument. After all, you'll notice my list of males did not include Nathaniel. 
Tallis was a temporary companion, a type of companion we've never been able to romance. Of any sex. 
And, again, I like Aveline, but if you put her next to Isabella or Merrill (as the game often did), she was not the same type of traditionally attractive female. I am not downing her looks, but again... not traditionally attractive. You won't see any Victoria's Secret models with her generalized appearance. 

And bethany? 

Dude, that's his sister. The fact that Hawke can't bang her doesn't make DA2 extraordinarily progressive.