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David Gaider on "The Impracticality of Sexism"


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#101
HolyAvenger

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

So is virtually every droolable male.


Virtually is not the same as all. 

Men are stereotypically attractive if they are atheltic, muscular and fit. I have given numerous examples where said stereotypes of males are non-romanceable for no stated reason at all. Women who are buxom and angular of face are all romanceable and sexable, if they fall into the type of character that the game let's you have sex with (non-DLC, non-expansion characters). 

Would you all not view it as slightly possible predication to make the traditionally attractive females in their games undeniably willing to have sex with the main character? Seeing as how they have little problem doing the same to male characters?

  

*shrugs* of the many things to beat BioWare up over, a slight discrepancy in romanceable men versus women is not a big deal to me. Virtually = close enough is good enough. 

I'm down with fewer to no LIs in a future BioWare game just get past the romance nonsense that bogs down a lot of discussions, fwiw. 

#102
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Xilizhra wrote...

Well. Times may change, in theory. Just saying.


I was actually wondering about this. I suspected your opinion would be as you state it.

#103
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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I can't believe that nobody so far seems to have picked up on the most obvious issue with Jimmy's list.

Namely, that it classifies Diana Allers as being "attractive".

#104
The Hierophant

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

I can't believe that nobody so far seems to have picked up on the most obvious issue with Jimmy's list.

Namely, that it classifies Diana Allers as being "attractive".

I was going to say something about that but i settled for a  shrug. 

#105
Guest_krul2k_*

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ok i'll be the one to sink that low an ask the question

i wonder if all this talk of sexual ism an gender in games is nothing more than a marketing ploy to try an attract ppl to DA3 an get them talking about it?

runs an hides

#106
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Lennard Testarossa wrote...

Varric's a dwarf and Sten is a Qunari.


What does this have to do with anything? Dwarves and Qunari are not mono-gendered.

#107
Daithin

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

As a disclaimer, I would not consider a 1,000 year old blue, mono-gendered alien without hair but big boobs (Samara) who shuts you down because of a samurai code to be "female" in this case.

 

"Here's an example that fits perfectly in my description, but I'm going to ignore it because...reasons."

FWIW I'll agree that BioWare is generally more progressive than most of the industry (in fact, probably the most progressive in the industry) but they still have a ways to go.

 



A ways to go for what, exactly?

 



...things! Important things!

The idea that Bioware has the mindset, according to this interview, of including more gamers of varying sexes and sexuality. In order to make all members of these groups feel at ease and comfortable, there is "more to be done."

And, in terms of Samara, she is neither human nor female, so I am not sure what exactly her behaviors do to advance either the feeling of including women or making them anything more than companion sexbots. If Bioware made a game with an Isabella companion who could not be digitally sexed, then that might be a step to breaking this mold.

And in regard to males you cannot have sex with, here are the following:

Varric (smooth talking, hairy chested dude

Vega (for all the fans of buff, spray tan type)

Sebastian (I'm too holy to hold hands)

 Mordin (the guy is a genius, is funny and can sing - tell me that doesn't make him attractive to some ladies)

Sten (big, huge, tan warrior with dreds... I've seen a few female fan fics to see where this is going)

I have a feeling there is more, but I think I've made a decent argument. The only two female examples are Samara (again, not female and it human) and then Aveljne and Wynne, who would not be considered "traditionally" attractive. 




I have a feeling this might be a bit far back in the discussion but I find it odd none the less that you would list Mordin, a Space Salamander as an example of men you are not able to have sex with, yet exclude Samara who according to you is not considered 'traditionally attractive'.

I'm sorry but to me that smacks of a myopic point of view.

Modifié par Daithin, 28 mars 2013 - 05:35 .


#108
Guest_Puddi III_*

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I thought the most obvious issue was that David Gaider has nothing to do with Mass Effect. I would actually kind of agree that Mass Effect is rather male-serving if you look at the way the romances are... and I do think it's more because they go overboard with the amount of bangable women, not because they need more bangable men.

#109
Fast Jimmy

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

I can't believe that nobody so far seems to have picked up on the most obvious issue with Jimmy's list.

Namely, that it classifies Diana Allers as being "attractive".


LOL I was waiting for this. 

I would say the INTENT was to make Diana Allers attractive, while the intent was to make Aveline less of a traditionally attractive female. 

The fact that the execution of Diana Allers was not 100% in line with the intent I do not think is really all that relevant. She was added to the game because her VA and character model was that of a hot, young IGN cover girl correspondent. The fact that her facial modeling was less than perfect is not really of importance. 

#110
LPPrince

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HolyAvenger wrote...

*shrugs* of the many things to beat BioWare up over, a slight discrepancy in romanceable men versus women is not a big deal to me. Virtually = close enough is good enough. 


Its not as slight as you think. The ME team and DA team are different, but since you mentioned "Bioware", take a look at ME3's available romances.

#111
Wulfram

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

But it doesn't. Males are non-romanceable for no reason at all. No samurai code, no mysterious reason that can never be altered - it is blocked off. Vega, Varric, Sten... these are all male, all athletic and fulfill a stereotypical male physique.


You can sleep with Vega in the latest DLC.  Varric is a dwarf.  Sten is not conventionally attractive to my eyes, and is in any case a Qunari, which certainly counts as a "samurai code" - if he'd fallen for the Warden he'd have to turn himself in for re-education when he got back.

There is no female equivalent of Isabella or Miranda that is
non-romanceable (read: non-sexable). I find it boggling that people on
the BSN can't find that indicative of a negative portrayal of women.
Since it indicates that if a female is broadly attractive, then they
must be sexual available.


It might well be problematic, but it's not sexist because it applies approximately equally to the men - quibbling about border cases doesn't make for a strong case.

I don't think Bioware always gets things perfect on gender issues - though DA2 did well - but I don't think this is one

#112
Fast Jimmy

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Filament wrote...

I thought the most obvious issue was that David Gaider has nothing to do with Mass Effect. I would actually kind of agree that Mass Effect is rather male-serving if you look at the way the romances are... and I do think it's more because they go overboard with the amount of bangable women, not because they need more bangable men.


True. But there are still no examples of the "hot" female companions not being sexable in DA games. In addition, Gaider says in the interview that Bioware, as a company, has the reputation and the initiative to be a socially inclusive company. 

And I'm not saying that if the DA games added this, they would magically complete some arbitrary checklist that gives the Fast Jimmy Seal of Progressive Approval (like they would even want or care for such a thing). Nor that they do not try or do better or worse than other companies. It is just an observation of a trend of how their characters are portrayed. 

#113
HolyAvenger

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LPPrince wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

*shrugs* of the many things to beat BioWare up over, a slight discrepancy in romanceable men versus women is not a big deal to me. Virtually = close enough is good enough. 


Its not as slight as you think. The ME team and DA team are different, but since you mentioned "Bioware", take a look at ME3's available romances.

 
ME3 gets complicated because of carry over romances, romances not in your party etc.

I will grant straight FemSheps are a bit shafted (hehehe) BUUUUUUUUUUT probably because BioWare looked at their metadata for ME1 and 2 and saw 90% of them went for Kaidan and Garrus anyway:whistle:

#114
Fast Jimmy

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You can sleep with Vega in the latest DLC. Varric is a dwarf. Sten is not conventionally attractive to my eyes, and is in any case a Qunari, which certainly counts as a "samurai code" - if he'd fallen for the Warden he'd have to turn himself in for re-education when he got back.


I have not played or seen Citadel yet. So I did not know that.

Yes, Varric is a dwarf. Sten is a Quanti.

Zevran is an elf. As is Merrill and Fenris. So... what are we saying here?

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 28 mars 2013 - 05:41 .


#115
Maria Caliban

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

As a disclaimer, I would not consider a 1,000 year old blue, mono-gendered alien without hair but big boobs (Samara) who shuts you down because of a samurai code to be "female" in this case.


How is she not female?

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Awakening characters should not apply, since no one was romanceable. If Bioware made a full game without romances, I would be ecstatic. But in this case, if no one is romanceable, male or female, good looking of plain, then it is not fair to use it as ammunition for any argument. After all, you'll notice my list of males did not include Nathaniel. 

Tallis was a temporary companion, a type of companion we've never been able to romance. Of any sex. 


"I'm going to create a criteria. Then whenever someone points out a character that fulfills this criteria, I'm going to change it so that character doesn't fulfill it anymore."

The elf chick in Neverwinter Nights. She was a real companion AND she was a conventionally attractive elf woman.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2013 - 05:47 .


#116
Sanunes

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I still consider BioWare one of the leading companies trying to diversify their characters more then other companies I see out there part of it I think comes from the ability to generate male or female characters, but also dedicating the time to try and flush out their characters instead of just making them fill simple and basic roles.

The problem is you can only do so much at one time and constantly push forward inch by inch for if you try and make too much progress at one time you are going to possibly fight both the publishers and the people that have expectations of what you are making.

#117
Guest_krul2k_*

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yeah you can sleep with vega after you stalk him an make your character out to be some sexual frustrated nymph

yeah you can sleep with javik with no imput what so ever from yourself, it takes a cutscene an once again A FEMALE pc waking up from a drunk night

but hey all in good taste an its for the lols right

#118
Allan Schumacher

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But there are still no examples of the "hot" female companions not being sexable in DA games.


I disagree. You've decided to draw an artificial line in the sand with someone like Samara and I find it disingenuous. People in this thread have identified Samara as both attractive and female (as do I). Furthermore, her Schwarzenegger like jaw is an actual female jaw (of Rana McAnear). If your critique is that you can still attempt one for her, that's fine. But she's not a character that can be romanced.


In addition, Gaider says in the interview that Bioware, as a company, has the reputation and the initiative to be a socially inclusive company.


Are you refuting the assertion? It's one thing to say "not good enough" (which implicitly states "some level of progress") as opposed to "No progress has been made at all."

As a BioWare employee, I emphatically agree that we can continue to do better. I just find the lines in the sand you've drawn to be somewhat arbitrary and not actually applicable.

#119
Xilizhra

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But it doesn't. Males are non-romanceable for no reason at all. No samurai code, no mysterious reason that can never be altered - it is blocked off. Vega, Varric, Sten... these are all male, all athletic and fulfill a stereotypical male physique.

Vega can be sexed, as previously mentioned, and Sten's reason for a lack of romance is pretty much the same in essence as Samara's. Only Varric is an exception, and he almost did have his own romance.

I was actually wondering about this. I suspected your opinion would be as you state it.

You track me for anything I might say about incest?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 28 mars 2013 - 05:48 .


#120
Wulfram

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

I have not played or seen Citadel yet. So I did not know that.

Yes, Varric is a dwarf. Sten is a Quanti.

Zevran is an elf. As is Merrill and Fenris. So... what are we saying here?


Elves are conventionally hot*, Dwarves aren't.  Shortness is not a conventionally attractive trait, particularly in men.  Sten isn't conventionally attractive IMO, and is any way excluded from being romancable by his religion.  Stick them beside Alistair and Anders and Zevran

Yes, either of them might be attractive to some people.  So is Aveline.  But if you're going to go for conventionally/classically/traditionally attractive, they don't fit.

*we can have the argument about DA2 elves appearances another time.

Modifié par Wulfram, 28 mars 2013 - 05:59 .


#121
JediHealerCosmin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...


As a BioWare employee, I emphatically agree that we can continue to do better.


I hope you and your colleagues will continue to believe that in all your future projects. It counts for a lot.

#122
nightscrawl

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Thanks for the link OP.

On a related note, his GDC lecture "Sex in Video Games," happens later today. I'm hoping that there will be a video of it at some point since the description seems interesting:

Games have reached the point where realistic portrayals of sex and adult relationships are possible, but what does this mean to us as developers? How much responsibility do we have in addressing issues of sexism and sexuality, and are we inadvertently making statements about what is acceptable, even when we don't mean to say anything at all? Our industry is struggling with a conflict between the desire to be taken seriously as an art form, and the desire to avoid addressing social issues because what we make are "just games." These things have implications on our sales, and while they can be addressed, it can only happen if we are willing to acknowledge that greater discussion of the topic within the industry is merited.

Takeaway
A greater understanding of the benefits of inclusiveness, as well as some of the risks and difficulties associated with addressing these issues, or not addressing them, as the case may be.



#123
Dragoonlordz

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On topic: The sexualisation or gender of the character should fit the story being told and the tone of the game. There should be variety of such titles on offer, some with male leads and some with female, some with both, some with sexualised characters and some without.

Off topic: Bit of a rant incomming as to why I think there is resistance to the sexism/gender issue..

Boils down to the perception of two groups by them. You have one group that wishes to create more types of games but keeping the other games on the market at same time for those who like those games yet offering new games for those who do not like the others. Then there's the (smaller) group that wants to take those original games off the market or change them to match their personal moral or ethical stance, replace it with a game more fitting to their ethics or social agenda and that is where the backlash comes in. Your taking a game or franchise that some like away from them and replacing/reforging it into a game or franchise more acceptable to you which you like instead and like a child who doesn't want to play with your toys they throw a tantrum because they want to play with theirs.

Out of two groups one is doing the right thing and the other they is not because they assume the role of a dictator, demanding every game conforms to their preference instead of creating new games or franchises built with their preference in mind. This second group is the kind that demand pre-existing titles change their game because has god forbid "boobs!". The first group is one who want more gender equality and better representation through creation of 'additional' content (games) brought to market that cater to other types of players or match their idiologies or ethics (I think of it bit like along the lines of Kickstarter how a whole new successful avenue opened up to bring games to market that are not as popular or mainstream, but instead cater to other groups or audiences with different desires from the mainstream).

Then other one is the ones who bash pre-existing games that do not cater to their tastes and wish to turn every game into what is matching their own idealistic, political or social acceptable level. Though that second group is much smaller in number compared to the more reasonable first group. One creates balance by creation of new products catering to more groups, creating diversity and inclusion in the hobby by offering more variety and the other wants to rule by dictatorship, forcing all games to meet their specifications and social agendas. The hostility is probably due to a perception or fear that the industry appears to listening to this second group instead of the first group.

I see nothing wrong myself in having games cater to both groups from those who want non-censored plots and characters, those who like sexualised characters and/or want male protaganists and the other side of the coin the existance of titles catering to the other spectrum of those which want more politicially, ethical centred or socially acceptable (to them) style games with non sexualised characters and female protaganists. There will be some that offer both male and female protaganists but I feel but not all games should be forced to do the same. I do however take issue with those trying to restrict the industry to one socially acceptable to only their political or social view aka the second group since I conform to the first group myself.

Using an analogy I mentioned earlier, to me it's the akin to the first group I percieve who want both a publisher and kickstarter existance to cater to more people and create inclusion in the hobby by offering more diversity or second group who would be equivilant to me of demanding only kickstarter should exist because they hate publisher model. The first I support, the second I do not.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 mars 2013 - 06:13 .


#124
Cainhurst Crow

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I found this part the most interesting and most enlightening.

RPS: But I would say you are in a position to really do something about it.

Gaider: Am I?

RPS: Well, you’re helping guide a gigantic franchise on the creative side. That’s a fair deal of power.


Gaider: I’m not in charge of anything. I’m a writer, which means that
I have a lead designer, a project director, people higher up who
provide me with parameters inside which I work. I can’t just say, “You
know what? Dragon Age is going to have a female protagonist on the box.”
That’s not my calling.


Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 28 mars 2013 - 06:00 .


#125
Cainhurst Crow

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

 


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