224 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Aveline is not conventionally attractive.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2013 - 06:09 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Aveline is not conventionally attractive.

1. It's classically, not conventionally

2. Why not?

[legbamel]

I'd agree with the folks calling shenanigans on excluding Samara and Aveline from consideration while including Merril (who I happen to find utterly unattractive), Liara (who is the same monogender as Samara), and Tali (whose face you don't even see unless you romance her in the third game and then only as a glare-y photo). Personally, I think Aveline is lovely and if you think those prominent jaws are outside the norms of beauty you have't seen a fair number of supermodels.

If your contention that Aveline isn't "traditionally" attractive rests on the fact that you can't tell how much cleavage she has then it's even more flawed than I thought.

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

But there are still no examples of the "hot" female companions not being sexable in DA games.

I disagree. You've decided to draw an artificial line in the sand with someone like Samara and I find it disingenuous. People in this thread have identified Samara as both attractive and female (as do I). Furthermore, her Schwarzenegger like jaw is an actual female jaw (of Rana McAnear). If your critique is that you can still attempt one for her, that's fine. But she's not a character that can be romanced.

I can understand the feeling that I am being disingenuous. 

But if the idea of inclusivity is to, by its very nature, make the person playing the game able to feel that the character portrayed is enough like "them" to relate to, then does Samara sccomplish this? My reservations in including her were because I thought that someone who is a nearly 1,000 year old alien warrior, committed to celibacy because of a strict honor code is not exactly something many can relate, appearance or not. Do a lot of players feel included by this character type? Do a lot of women feel included by this character type? I made an assumption there, and it was perhaps wrong, but I'm not sure it could be called truly arbitrary. 
 

In addition, Gaider says in the interview that Bioware, as a company, has the reputation and the initiative to be a socially inclusive company.

Are you refuting the assertion? It's one thing to say "not good enough" (which implicitly states "some level of progress") as opposed to "No progress has been made at all."

As a BioWare employee, I emphatically agree that we can continue to do better. I just find the lines in the sand you've drawn to be somewhat arbitrary and not actually applicable.

I did not mean to imply that Bioware has not done so. I was responding to a comment someone made that "Gaider is not the ME team," implying talking about ME at all was not relevant. I was not attempting to insult Bioware.

I was simply pointing out one area I had noticed where I think the default to any "traditionally" attractive female companion is to make them part of the PC's romance radar. I think it would be rather empowering to have a woman in a video game where romances and sex are quite common with companions, a woman who many could have pegged as being "eye candy," NOT being sexually available.

And not for a conjured reason, like the samurai code or deep-seated emotional issues or any number of other plot roadblocks... just that they don't want to be in a romance. Again, a "thanks, but no thanks" type of response, regardless of interactions, gifts, dialogue or gender. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 28 mars 2013 - 06:19 .

[Maria Caliban]

1. I believe Fast Jimmy meant conventionally. If he meant 'classically,' he probably needs to clarify what he means. 'classic' to me means fitting classical Greek and Roman concepts of ideal body proportions or at least the Renaissance take on the same. For some people it means the Golden Age of Hollywood movies.

2. Aveline is not conventionally attractive because her body is not being displayed, her jaw is too wide, her arms are too muscular, and her stance/walking animations are the ones the men in the game use.

legbamel wrote...

If your contention that Aveline isn't "traditionally" attractive rests on the fact that you can't tell how much cleavage she has then it's even more flawed than I thought.

Conventional attractiveness for women, which isn't traditional attractiveness, typically presumes a certain amount of male gaze. Yes, if I were talking about a real life woman who changed outfits on a daily basis, it wouldn't matter, but we're talking about characters who wear mostly the same thing throughout the game. Their outfit is part of their default appearance.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2013 - 06:24 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Until Bioware includes a classically attractive female companion that you cannot have sex with, then they still have a long way to go to be as progressive and some would claim.

 

<snip>

Hmmmm. There's a whole thread here that discusses things. Instead of posting pictures with no words in violation of site rules, it may be more prudent to read them.

Just a suggestion. You can take it or leave it. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

She's a strong female, she is attractive, she doesn't want to be with the warden because she honestly likes someone else.

If that doesn't meet the criteria, I don't know what the heck is wrong with you.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. I believe Fast Jimmy meant conventionally. If he meant 'classically,' he probably needs to clarify what he means. 'classic' to me means fitting classical Greek and Roman concepts of ideal body proportions or at least the Renaissance take on the same. For some people it means the Golden Age of Hollywood movies.

2. Aveline is not conventionally attractive because her body is not being displayed, her jaw is too wide, her arms are too muscular, and her stance/walking animations are the ones the men in the game use.

Good points. I will adjust my terminology going forward. 

[Asch Lavigne]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was simply pointing out one area I had noticed where I think the default to any "traditionally" attractive female companion is to make them part of the PC's romance radar. I think it would be rather empowering to have a woman in a video game where romances and sex are quite common with companions, a woman who many could have pegged as being "eye candy," NOT being sexually available.

And not for a conjured reason, like the samurai code or deep-seated emotional issues or any number of other plot roadblocks... just that they don't want to be in a romance. Again, a "thanks, but no thanks" type of response, regardless of interactions, gifts, dialogue or gender. 

You mean like Samara from ME2?

[Dragoonlordz]

On aspect of Liara and Aveline... Aveline is not attractive to me because she's chubby, ginger and has freckles all of which I find unattractive. Liara is unattractive to me because shes blue, has tentacles on her head. I found Ashley in ME3 more attractive than old version though her lips were bit too big and her cleveage has nothing to do with what I consider attractive her face was better and hair was nicer (generally I find hair tied up to be turn off not turn on). The most sexy thing in ME series however is Kasumi's voice. The most attractive person in DA for me (if I was a girl would be original Alistair because of his human flaws and humor), as a guy it is between two people... Either Isabella for her extroverted and sexually confident personality or the redesigned Morrigane as shown below for appearence.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 mars 2013 - 06:27 .

[Volus Warlord]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ROFLMAO The paragraph where the word "privilege" is used about half a dozen times is going to get a reaction from some folks here on the BSN.

Well if you are privilegified enough to understand my privileged words, then that is a mark of your privilege. Otherwise go get some privilege.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So pretty much your looking for Isabela with avelines personality?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 28 mars 2013 - 06:27 .

[eroeru]

"Let’s just take as many people with us to those new places as we can."
"We’re talking about the industry at large needing to have broader appeal and a larger fanbase."

Ugh. This kind of attitude will definitely compromise in terms of vision and a wholesome game. "We" don't want to be catered to - "we" want that games retain consistency and don't fall apart in their ambitions.

Modifié par eroeru, 28 mars 2013 - 06:32 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

On aspect of Liara and Aveline... Aveline is not attractive to me because she's chubby, ginger and has freckles all of which I find unattractive. Liara is unattractive to me because shes blue, has tentacles on her head. I found Ashley in ME3 more attractive than old version though her lips were bit too big and her cleveage has nothing to do with what I consider attractive her face was better and hair was nicer (generally I find hair tied up to be turn off not turn on). The most sexy thing in ME series however is Kasumi's voice. The most attractive person in DA for me (if I was a girl would be original Alistair because of his human flaws and humor), as a guy it is between two people... Either Isabella for her extroverted and sexually confident personality or the redesigned Morrigane as shown below for appearence.

Seriously?  Do you even know what "chubby" means?  I think the word you're looking for is "muscular," because no, Aveline is not carting around excess fat.  I am chubby.  Aveline is buff.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
ROFLMAO The paragraph where the word "privilege" is used about half a dozen times is going to get a reaction from some folks here on the BSN.

Well if you are privilegified enough to understand my privileged words, then that is a mark of your privilege. Otherwise go get some privilege.

Check your privilege son, just how privileged do you think you are, telling other people about privilege? You don't act nearly guilty enough for your level of privilege.

Modifié par Inquisitor Recon, 28 mars 2013 - 06:33 .

[Wulfram]

Do men relate to Sten more than women relate to Samara?  Mass murdering brainwashed giant from Huxleyesque dystopia?

While a lot of Samara's character is bound up in love for her children, which seems relatable.

Maria Caliban wrote...

2. Aveline is not conventionally attractive because her body is not being displayed, her jaw is too wide, her arms are too muscular, and her stance/walking animations are the ones the men in the game use.

Aveline has the female animations as far as movement goes, it's just the standing that is different.  Unless a mod is doing something odd.

Modifié par Wulfram, 28 mars 2013 - 06:38 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

So pretty much your looking for Isabela with avelines personality?

I'm not sure I'm asking for anything in regards to the personality, more just the "no, I don't think we'll be having sex, thanks." 

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

But there are still no examples of the "hot" female companions not being sexable in DA games.

I disagree. You've decided to draw an artificial line in the sand with someone like Samara and I find it disingenuous. People in this thread have identified Samara as both attractive and female (as do I). Furthermore, her Schwarzenegger like jaw is an actual female jaw (of Rana McAnear). If your critique is that you can still attempt one for her, that's fine. But she's not a character that can be romanced.

I can understand the feeling that I am being disingenuous. 

But if the idea of inclusivity is to, by its very nature, make the person playing the game able to feel that the character portrayed is enough like "them" to relate to, then does Samara sccomplish this? My reservations in including her were because I thought that someone who is a nearly 1,000 year old alien warrior, committed to celibacy because of a strict honor code is not exactly something many can relate, appearance or not. Do a lot of players feel included by this character type? Do a lot of women feel included by this character type? I made an assumption there, and it was perhaps wrong, but I'm not sure it could be called truly arbitrary. 
 

This feels a lot like you're moving the goalposts. You were talking about how there are no "hot" non-romanceable female characters, but then you don't seem to dispute that she's hot or that she's female. You instead go into a tangent about relatability, which has little to do with the original point.

In addition, I would disagree with your premise - that someone like Samara is not someone that is relatable to players. Samara's major themes are her sense of duty being at war with her personal feelings. This theme is something extremely relatable to a lot of people - who *hasn't* ever had to consider putting their responsibilities before their own desires? Who hasn't wondered what might have been? Samara is an example of this theme taken to its logical extreme, and that's what makes her a resonant character (like the rest of the companions in most of Bioware's games).

[mesmerizedish]

Xilizhra wrote...

JediHealerCosmin wrote...

If we were to go a little backwards in time, we could count Mission Vao and Juhani as female characters which couldn't be romanced.
Although that's a little tricky... Juhani could be romanced by a female Revan as a bug, but I think they fixed it, can't remember.

I'm fairly sure Juhani was supposed to be romanceable by a female Revan. Not that it matters, as Revan is canonically male (though the Exile is canonically female, pleasantly).

Just wanted to mention that Mr. Gaider went to a lot of trouble to make sure Juhani's f/f romance was included.

[grumpymooselion]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

ROFLMAO The paragraph where the word "privilege" is used about half a dozen times is going to get a reaction from some folks here on the BSN.

I'd dare to suggest that he did so pointedly, knowing that such reactions were not only likely but inevitable (the interviewer says as much).

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

JediHealerCosmin wrote...

If
we were to go a little backwards in time, we could count Mission Vao
and Juhani as female characters which couldn't be romanced.
Although
that's a little tricky... Juhani could be romanced by a female Revan as a
bug, but I think they fixed it, can't remember.

I'm
fairly sure Juhani was supposed to be romanceable by a female Revan. Not
that it matters, as Revan is canonically male (though the Exile is
canonically female, pleasantly).

Just wanted to mention that Mr. Gaider went to a lot of trouble to make sure Juhani's f/f romance was included.

I remember that, never pursued it myself (or any of the relationships in KotOR) but I thought it was an nice addition.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 28 mars 2013 - 06:45 .

[Enigmatick]

A thread about sexism is the top non stickied post on a forum for general discussion about an upcoming fantasy rpg.

Boy! I sure do love playing video games!

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

Do men relate to Sten more than women relate to Samara?  Mass murdering brainwashed giant from Huxleyesque dystopia?

A fair point. But many males do identify with the strong, taciturn warrior. It is a common character type, but I'll grant that there is an argument to be made that he is not inherently anymore relatable than Samara. 

While a lot of Samara's character is bound up in love for her children, which seems relatable.

True, but the tie to her children also drives her to hunt down and kill her child due to being born with a genetic abnormality, something I'm equally sure is pretty non-relatable to many gamers. 

At least... I HOPE that is non-relatable.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 28 mars 2013 - 06:47 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Avelines personality was not attractive (imho). Isabella was confident in who she was both in her sexuality and outgoing lighthearted approach to life in general. This is attractive, Aveline on the other hand was shy, introverted (imho) with use of aggression and hostility to mask those insecurities. The use of aggression to cover up ones flaws is not attractive to me, using humor to cover up such is not as grating and annoying.

I felt Merill was very unattractive in many ways, from her personaility and childlike idiotic view of the world and her actions and her appearence being way too skinny, horrible nose, creepy hands and her donkey ears didn't help plus short hair is not attractive on a girl as far as I am concerned.

Varric was okay if like short dudes but to me he just reminded me of freddie mercury in the music video I want to break free... or should of been in the YMCA. I could see why people would be attracted to Anders in DAA due to his humour and appearence and love of cats, but I don't understand why anyone would find him attractive in DA2 as to me he is at that point like a sociopath with split personality and ugly redesigned of appearence.

[Dragoonlordz]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Seriously?  Do you even know what "chubby" means?  I think the word you're looking for is "muscular," because no, Aveline is not carting around excess fat.  I am chubby.  Aveline is buff.

She's chubby faced as far as I am concerned. I do find it interesting how you seem to have taken offense to how I view her though. These are all only my perceptions of the characters, you might disagree but I find it odd that you seem offended by my perception of a fictional character.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 mars 2013 - 06:56 .

[Volus Warlord]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
ROFLMAO The paragraph where the word "privilege" is used about half a dozen times is going to get a reaction from some folks here on the BSN.

Well if you are privilegified enough to understand my privileged words, then that is a mark of your privilege. Otherwise go get some privilege.

Check your privilege son, just how privileged do you think you are, telling other people about privilege? You don't act nearly guilty enough for your level of privilege.

Psh a guiltless nature is the purest form of privilege! I harbor no shame for my words or actions because I am so privileged that my word is law and I am the arbitrator of good and evil. The incompetant and underpriviledged proletarians do not understand that.