224 réponses à ce sujet

[Enigmatick]

Avelines personality was not attractive (imho). Isabella was confident in who she was both in her sexuality and outgoing lighthearted approach to life in general. This is attractive, Aveline on the other hand was shy, introverted (imho) with use of aggression and hostility to mask those insecurities. The use of aggression to cover up ones flaws is not attractive to me, using humor to cover up such is not as grating and annoying.

I felt Merill was very unattractive in many ways, from her personaility and childlike idiotic view of the world and her actions and her appearence being way too skinny, horrible nose, creepy hands and her donkey ears didn't help plus short hair is not attractive on a girl as far as I am concerned.

Varric was okay if like short dudes but to me he just reminded me of freddie mercury in the music video I want to break free... or should of been in the YMCA. I could see why people would be attracted to Anders in DAA due to his humour and appearence and love of cats, but I don't understand why anyone would find him attractive in DA2 as to me he is at that point like a sociopath with split personality and ugly redesigned of appearence

What do your preferences have to do with anything? Isn't everyone here talking about classical attractiveness?

Modifié par Enigmatick, 28 mars 2013 - 06:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

This feels a lot like you're moving the goalposts. You were talking about how there are no "hot" non-romanceable female characters, but then you don't seem to dispute that she's hot or that she's female. You instead go into a tangent about relatability, which has little to do with the original point.

In addition, I would disagree with your premise - that someone like Samara is not someone that is relatable to players. Samara's major themes are her sense of duty being at war with her personal feelings. This theme is something extremely relatable to a lot of people - who *hasn't* ever had to consider putting their responsibilities before their own desires? Who hasn't wondered what might have been? Samara is an example of this theme taken to its logical extreme, and that's what makes her a resonant character (like the rest of the companions in most of Bioware's games).

It is fair enough to say I may be moving the goal posts. I can admit that is probably the case.

So let me officially readjust my position - aside from Aveline, are there any female companions that deny sex with you aside without some mysterious, samurai code or other plot roadblock? Again, adjusting for non-DLC/expansion characters, since one can never "take the romance to completion" with them.

If so, does it say something that a female companion designed to be non-conventionay attractive (perhaps the first Bioware female companion to be so, I'd have to check) is also the first to shut down our hero for totally mundane reasons? Would Bioware do this for a conventionally attractive female? If not, does that say something about how conventionally attractive females are portrayed?

[Xilizhra]

If so, does it say something that a female companion designed to be non-conventionay attractive (perhaps the first Bioware female companion to be so, I'd have to check) is also the first to shut down our hero for totally mundane reasons? Would Bioware do this for a conventionally attractive female? If not, does that say something about how conventionally attractive females are portrayed?

Is being a love interest a character flaw, somehow? If not, I'm not completely sure how this is relevant.

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

This feels a lot like you're moving the goalposts. You were talking about how there are no "hot" non-romanceable female characters, but then you don't seem to dispute that she's hot or that she's female. You instead go into a tangent about relatability, which has little to do with the original point.

In addition, I would disagree with your premise - that someone like Samara is not someone that is relatable to players. Samara's major themes are her sense of duty being at war with her personal feelings. This theme is something extremely relatable to a lot of people - who *hasn't* ever had to consider putting their responsibilities before their own desires? Who hasn't wondered what might have been? Samara is an example of this theme taken to its logical extreme, and that's what makes her a resonant character (like the rest of the companions in most of Bioware's games).

It is fair enough to say I may be moving the goal posts. I can admit that is probably the case.

So let me officially readjust my position - aside from Aveline, are there any female companions that deny sex with you aside without some mysterious, samurai code or other plot roadblock? Again, adjusting for non-DLC/expansion characters, since one can never "take the romance to completion" with them.

If so, does it say something that a female companion designed to be non-conventionay attractive (perhaps the first Bioware female companion to be so, I'd have to check) is also the first to shut down our hero for totally mundane reasons? Would Bioware do this for a conventionally attractive female? If not, does that say something about how conventionally attractive females are portrayed?

I don't understand what you hope to prove (or even demonstrate) with this given set of arbitrary requirements. You've already been proven wrong on your initial premise, which is why you moved the goalposts in the first place. Now you're just asking to be shown an example of something... but I don't see the purpose in doing so. What is it you are hoping to accomplish with this line of discussion?

[Sejborg]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was simply pointing out one area I had noticed where I think the default to any "traditionally" attractive female companion is to make them part of the PC's romance radar. I think it would be rather empowering to have a woman in a video game where romances and sex are quite common with companions, a woman who many could have pegged as being "eye candy," NOT being sexually available.

Something like EDI? 

[Harle Cerulean]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Seriously?  Do you even know what "chubby" means?  I think the word you're looking for is "muscular," because no, Aveline is not carting around excess fat.  I am chubby.  Aveline is buff.

She's chubby faced as far as I am concerned. I do find it interesting how you seem to have taken offense to how I view her though.

A strong jaw isn't 'chubby-faced'.   If I was offended, I wouldn't be calling myself chubby, now would I?
  I'm simply incredulous that someone would think 'chubby' applied to Aveline.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 28 mars 2013 - 07:02 .

[Volus Warlord]

Xilizhra wrote...

If so, does it say something that a female companion designed to be non-conventionay attractive (perhaps the first Bioware female companion to be so, I'd have to check) is also the first to shut down our hero for totally mundane reasons? Would Bioware do this for a conventionally attractive female? If not, does that say something about how conventionally attractive females are portrayed?

Is being a love interest a character flaw, somehow? If not, I'm not completely sure how this is relevant.

Yes. It shows dependency issues. The ultimate form of a strong and independant women is to be a strong willed bicycle.

Anything else is a sex object.

[Ridwan]

MODEDIT: Unacceptable.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 28 mars 2013 - 07:41 .

[Harle Cerulean]

Sejborg wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was simply pointing out one area I had noticed where I think the default to any "traditionally" attractive female companion is to make them part of the PC's romance radar. I think it would be rather empowering to have a woman in a video game where romances and sex are quite common with companions, a woman who many could have pegged as being "eye candy," NOT being sexually available.

Something like EDI? 

I'm sure Jimmy will say that she doesn't count because she's a robot.  

[Dragoonlordz]

Enigmatick wrote...

Avelines personality was not attractive (imho). Isabella was confident in who she was both in her sexuality and outgoing lighthearted approach to life in general. This is attractive, Aveline on the other hand was shy, introverted (imho) with use of aggression and hostility to mask those insecurities. The use of aggression to cover up ones flaws is not attractive to me, using humor to cover up such is not as grating and annoying.

I felt Merill was very unattractive in many ways, from her personaility and childlike idiotic view of the world and her actions and her appearence being way too skinny, horrible nose, creepy hands and her donkey ears didn't help plus short hair is not attractive on a girl as far as I am concerned.

Varric was okay if like short dudes but to me he just reminded me of freddie mercury in the music video I want to break free... or should of been in the YMCA. I could see why people would be attracted to Anders in DAA due to his humour and appearence and love of cats, but I don't understand why anyone would find him attractive in DA2 as to me he is at that point like a sociopath with split personality and ugly redesigned of appearence

What do your preferences have to do with anything? Isn't everyone here talking about classical attractiveness?

There is no such thing outside of personal preferences (imho). It is subjective what people find attractive. People through the centuries have tried to define what is and is not generally standards of attractiveness and they still haven't settled on a single definitive answer. Fashion trends change from hair styles, body shapes and clothing, what was attractive a decade ago is not now and what might be attractive now might not be in a decade. This goes for all aspects from facial features, hair, clothing, breast sizes, hip shapes, the big butts vs small butts. Personality is the most subjective of them all and is limited to personal preference in every case.

[Enigmatick]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was simply pointing out one area I had noticed where I think the default to any "traditionally" attractive female companion is to make them part of the PC's romance radar. I think it would be rather empowering to have a woman in a video game where romances and sex are quite common with companions, a woman who many could have pegged as being "eye candy," NOT being sexually available.

Something like EDI? 

I'm sure Jimmy will say that she doesn't count because she's a robot.  

He'll say it's a plot roadblock, and check your human privilege by the way

[Volus Warlord]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was simply pointing out one area I had noticed where I think the default to any "traditionally" attractive female companion is to make them part of the PC's romance radar. I think it would be rather empowering to have a woman in a video game where romances and sex are quite common with companions, a woman who many could have pegged as being "eye candy," NOT being sexually available.

Something like EDI? 

I'm sure Jimmy will say that she doesn't count because she's a robot.  

She doesn't count cause she's a robot. That's not romance, that's assisted masturbation. You may as well have your left hand be romance option.

[HolyAvenger]

Jimmy working himself into contortions on this thread is hilarious.

popcorn.gif

[Sejborg]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was simply pointing out one area I had noticed where I think the default to any "traditionally" attractive female companion is to make them part of the PC's romance radar. I think it would be rather empowering to have a woman in a video game where romances and sex are quite common with companions, a woman who many could have pegged as being "eye candy," NOT being sexually available.

Something like EDI? 

I'm sure Jimmy will say that she doesn't count because she's a robot.  

She is romanceble to Joker, but not the PC. And she is eye candy/sexbot - I mean she even has an awesome cameltoe.

[Nerdage]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It is fair enough to say I may be moving the goal posts. I can admit that is probably the case.

So let me officially readjust my position - aside from Aveline, are there any female companions that deny sex with you aside without some mysterious, samurai code or other plot roadblock? Again, adjusting for non-DLC/expansion characters, since one can never "take the romance to completion" with them.

If so, does it say something that a female companion designed to be non-conventionay attractive (perhaps the first Bioware female companion to be so, I'd have to check) is also the first to shut down our hero for totally mundane reasons? Would Bioware do this for a conventionally attractive female? If not, does that say something about how conventionally attractive females are portrayed?

Nalia? Unless you want characters who specifically turn you down, rather than just being non-romancable, because that's only really been a thing in recent games.

But I'm confused... Why is this debate about romancable companions relevant to the topic of sexism? Is the suggestion that most people have some kind of sex drive sexist? I genuinely don't understand.

[Harle Cerulean]

Sejborg wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I was simply pointing out one area I had noticed where I think the default to any "traditionally" attractive female companion is to make them part of the PC's romance radar. I think it would be rather empowering to have a woman in a video game where romances and sex are quite common with companions, a woman who many could have pegged as being "eye candy," NOT being sexually available.

Something like EDI? 

I'm sure Jimmy will say that she doesn't count because she's a robot.  

She is romanceble to Joker, but not the PC. And she is eye candy/sexbot - I mean she even has an awesome cameltoe.

I'm not disagreeing!  I totally think EDI would count.  I'm pointing out that Jimmy finds reasons to discount any and every example that could possibly go against what he's trying to prove.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 28 mars 2013 - 07:08 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

A strong jaw isn't 'chubby-faced'.   If I was offended, I wouldn't be calling myself chubby, now would I?
  I'm simply incredulous that someone would think 'chubby' applied to Aveline.

I feel she is chubby, deal with it and get over it. Just like I felt Diana Allers in ME was pug faced which did not do her real life appearence of Jessica Chobot justice. Merrill was anorexic in appearence to me. Some of the words I use to describe my perception of them might not be ideal to you but I am not seeking your approval or agreement, just wondering why you even care how I percieve her.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 mars 2013 - 07:11 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't understand what you hope to prove (or even demonstrate) with this given set of arbitrary requirements. You've already been proven wrong on your initial premise, which is why you moved the goalposts in the first place. Now you're just asking to be shown an example of something... but I don't see the purpose in doing so. What is it you are hoping to accomplish with this line of discussion?

I don't know if I was proven wrong. I originally said aside from Samara (who I disqualified for a number of reasons in terms of her unique biology of her species, exceptionally old age, devotion to a monastic warrior order, etc.), Bioware has not given us a conventionally attractive female companion who we could not have sex with.

For simplicity's  sake, I reframed the query to say aside from Aveline, Bioware has not given us a female companion who denied us sex aside without having to use some obscure plot shield. I framed the question to say "would Bioware have given us a female companion that said 'I am not interested in you' if the character herself was not designed to be non-conventionally attractive?"

The purpose of this is to say Bioware is seeming to imply that unless you are non-conventionally attractive, then you MUST want to have sex with the main character. Samara does, arguably, want to have sex with you, it is just that darn samurai code getting in the way. Every conventionally attractive female at least needs to address the idea of wanting to romance you and get in your pants.

There are male companions in games who fall into stereotypes of male attractiveness who do not pursue the main character, nor have to say "I would have sex with you if it wasn't for _____."

Does every conventionally attractive female have to have sex or require a reason not to? If so, then doesn't that possibly seem to indicate that attractive women have to justify not having sex with someone? Possibly being the key word here.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 28 mars 2013 - 07:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Does every conventionally attractive female have to have sex or require a reason not to? If so, then doesn't that possibly seem to indicate that attractive women have to justify not having sex with someone? Possibly being the key word here.

Er... I don't really see it. This may be because I have a more positive view of romances than you do, but I don't see being romanceable as a character flaw at all. Especially since the PC can be so many different kinds of people.

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The purpose of this is to say Bioware is seeming to imply that unless you are non-conventionally attractive, then you MUST want to have sex with the main character. Samara does, arguably, want to have sex with you, it is just that darn samurai code getting in the way. Every conventionally attractive female at least needs to address the idea of wanting to romance you and get in your pants.

There are male companions in games who fall into stereotypes of male attractiveness who do not pursue the main character, nor have to say "I would have sex with you if it wasn't for _____."

Does every conventionally attractive female have to have sex or require a reason not to? If so, then doesn't that possibly seem to indicate that attractive women have to justify not having sex with someone? Possibly being the key word here.

I still don't understand what you are arguing here. Why does this matter? Is it because you believe perceived sexual availability is skewed in favor of female characters over male? Do you want it to be more balanced, in that conventionally attractive male characters also become sexually available to the main character?

I mean... sure, I'd support such an endeavor. But that goes back to what David and Allan already said - there are things they could do better, and they will endeavor to do so in the future.

[Maria Caliban]

"In general, if a female companion is conventionally attractive, she will be romantically available to the PC."
^ Does anyone disagree with this statement?

If this statement is true, does that mean that BioWare should have more conventionally attractive women as companions who aren't romancable?

Because I'm not sure it's that relevant a point. If a female companion is going to be romancable, the designers will likely try to make her fit certain conceptions of beauty. Characters like Jack, with her shaved head and body tats, are an exception, but I suspect if they had to cut down on the number of female love interests, they'd get rid of Jack's long before they touched Miranda's.

I'd rather see female companions have a wide range of looks and the love interest be the hotties than the female companions mostly being conventionally attractive just so we can have a hottie that isn't available to romance.

[Wulfram]

I don't necessarily think it's a problem for a genre to be primarily directed at a particular group. Romantic comedies tend to be directed at women, action films tend to be directed at men. And computer games, particularly your AAA stuff, tend to be action, largely because that's easier to turn into a game.

Which isn't to say that women shouldn't be catered to, because obviously lots of them do play and their money is good. And it certainly isn't anything resembling an excuse for sexist portrayals of women.

But I don't think adding more female protagonists would result in there being a whole lot more women playing computer games if the genre of computer games remains basically the same. Though I don't know if it would necessarily hurt sales among men - personally when the choice is available I often choose a female protagonist.

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote... *

Does every conventionally attractive female have to have sex or require a reason not to? If so, then doesn't that possibly seem to indicate that attractive women have to justify not having sex with someone? Possibly being the key word here.

* Er... I don't really see it. This may be because I have a more positive view of romances than you do, but I don't see being romanceable as a character flaw at all. Especially since the PC can be so many different kinds of people.

 

See, the ability to play different character types only reinforces my feelings on the issue. If you could only romance a character because you are a Paragon, or you are pro-Mage, or if you were nice to orphans, etc., I could see it being less of a negative thing. But if you click the heart icon or the obvious romance dialogue, then you can sleep with any of these females (assuming you met their gender/sexuality requirements). If you are the worst human being possible, you can still have sex with everyone who can be sexed. Heck, in DA2, if you are the very embodiment of what someone hates, you can have sex with them more easily than being moderate and on the fence about things.

That you can play the role of someone that no person in their right mind would romance, yet continue to romance them, is insane to me. And further gives the sign to me that all romanceable companions have an undeniable urge to romance. And if my suggestion that conventionally attractive females seem to need an excuse to not engage in a romance, would this imply that since you can romance these females despite playing as any type of character, that females need an excuse to not want to be romantically involved with anyone?