391 réponses à ce sujet

[Armass81]

spamtrash wrote...

StoneSwords wrote...
Honestly, I would have been fine with a little mystery when it comes to the reapers.

ME1 and ME2 explained the reapers perfectly for me.

ME1: "They're harvesting us!"

Why?:

ME2: Reproduction!
*Insert Silly Human-looking Reaper Here.*



Viva MEHEM.

Thats not "beyond our comprehension". Thats as basic as it goes, really. Every living thing reproduces to survive. If there was any rising sapience it would be one of the first things it would understand. Even mindless plants do it.

Modifié par Armass81, 01 mai 2013 - 02:41 .

[Constant Motion]

OP - ace post. I don't agree with all of it, but a lot of it, and the bits I disagree with, I find interesting.

Reap_ii wrote...

the ending doesn't make sense. its jarring. it's thematically incorrect. its not foreshadowed properly. Shepard does not act like Shepard. these are facts, not opinions.

This, on the other hand, I think is basically nonsense. Control and destroy's emphasised right from the start of ME3, themes of organic tension with synthetics escalate throughout the entire series, and there's an AI character on the citadel in the very first game who has the line - and I quote this, verbatim - "I am not naive, human. All organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms."

The themes presented at the end are the themes that have been present in the series right from the start - you just weren't paying attention.

Fine to say it's not foreshadowed to your tastes. Fine to say it doesn't match your preferred themes. I'm not the opinion police, hate what you like. But know that it's just that - an opinion. The second you claim it as a fact is the second you're no longer talking out of your mouth.

Modifié par Constant Motion, 01 mai 2013 - 02:40 .

[Iakus]

Armass81 wrote...

Thats not "beyond our comprehension". Thats as basic as it goes, really. Every living thing reproduces to survive. If there was any rising sapience it would be one of the first things it would understand. Even mindless plants do it.

" Beyond our comprehension" by its very nature, is unable to be explained.  So any explanation is destined to pretty much be a letdown as far as teh Reapers go.

So I'm willing to take them at their word "Fine, you're beyond my comprehension.  Comprehend this"  KABOOM!!!

[Armass81]

iakus wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Thats not "beyond our comprehension". Thats as basic as it goes, really. Every living thing reproduces to survive. If there was any rising sapience it would be one of the first things it would understand. Even mindless plants do it.

" Beyond our comprehension" by its very nature, is unable to be explained.  So any explanation is destined to pretty much be a letdown as far as teh Reapers go.

So I'm willing to take them at their word "Fine, you're beyond my comprehension.  Comprehend this"  KABOOM!!!

Many here have said reapers were cheapened. You know what was the first thing that actually cheapened them. When Sovereing went kaboom. Many draw parallels to the cthuhlhu and great ancients, but do you realize that one of the very things that made them so effective was that they were so far beyond us that even seeing one was enough to make us go insane. And there was really no chance of winning against them. Reapers dont have this by the very fact that they CAN be killed by us.

And what kind of game would that have been really? If we couldnt stop them... ?

Modifié par Armass81, 01 mai 2013 - 02:58 .

[spamtrash]

Armass81 wrote...

Thats not "beyond our comprehension". Thats as basic as it goes, really.

Eh The Reapers were always ones for the dramatic: <_<

"I will tear you apart!"

"Beyond your comprehension."

"We have no beginning."

"Organics FUMBLING in the dark."

"We are INFINTE.

Etc.

[Iakus]

Armass81 wrote...

Many here have said reapers were cheapened. You know what was the first thing that actually cheapened them. When Sovereing went kaboom. Many draw parallels to the cthuhlhu and great ancients, but do you realize that one of the very things that made them so effective was that they were so far beyond us that even seeing one was enough to make us go insane. And there was really no chance of winning against them. Reapers dont have this by the very fact that they can be killed by us.

And what kind of game would that have been really? If we couldnt stop them... ?

Well, they do have indoctrination...

But yes, the reapers are not gods, or Great Old Ones, or whatever.  They are mundane, albiet very powerful, enemies.  

But again, they are very powerful, immortal (or virtually so) alien minds operating at a level we cannot understand.  The most important part being alien.  They don't have to be mighty, slumbering gods to be impossible to understand.  Their minds simply have to operate on a level we simply don't get.

 Heck Legion in ME3 could have laid the groundwork for it, describing Reaper thoughts as being "unfathomable" even while he was hooked up to the entire geth consensus.

[Armass81]

iakus wrote...

Armass81 wrote...

Many here have said reapers were cheapened. You know what was the first thing that actually cheapened them. When Sovereing went kaboom. Many draw parallels to the cthuhlhu and great ancients, but do you realize that one of the very things that made them so effective was that they were so far beyond us that even seeing one was enough to make us go insane. And there was really no chance of winning against them. Reapers dont have this by the very fact that they can be killed by us.

And what kind of game would that have been really? If we couldnt stop them... ?

Well, they do have indoctrination...

But yes, the reapers are not gods, or Great Old Ones, or whatever.  They are mundane, albiet very powerful, enemies.  

But again, they are very powerful, immortal (or virtually so) alien minds operating at a level we cannot understand.  The most important part being alien.  They don't have to be mighty, slumbering gods to be impossible to understand.  Their minds simply have to operate on a level we simply don't get.

 Heck Legion in ME3 could have laid the groundwork for it, describing Reaper thoughts as being "unfathomable" even while he was hooked up to the entire geth consensus.

Bioware did kinda screw them up, which was to be expected really. Machines dont really work as beings that have no beginning, cause machines always do, they also have a purpose.

Theres a good way and a bad way to make Lovecraftian enemies

Good way: Ancients in Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem, "Them" in Star Control 2
Bad Way: Reapers in Mass Effect

Modifié par Armass81, 01 mai 2013 - 03:09 .

[txgoldrush]

Constant Motion wrote...

OP - ace post. I don't agree with all of it, but a lot of it, and the bits I disagree with, I find interesting.

Reap_ii wrote...

the ending doesn't make sense. its jarring. it's thematically incorrect. its not foreshadowed properly. Shepard does not act like Shepard. these are facts, not opinions.

This, on the other hand, I think is basically nonsense. Control and destroy's emphasised right from the start of ME3, themes of organic tension with synthetics escalate throughout the entire series, and there's an AI character on the citadel in the very first game who has the line - and I quote this, verbatim - "I am not naive, human. All organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms."

The themes presented at the end are the themes that have been present in the series right from the start - you just weren't paying attention.

Fine to say it's not foreshadowed to your tastes. Fine to say it doesn't match your preferred themes. I'm not the opinion police, hate what you like. But know that it's just that - an opinion. The second you claim it as a fact is the second you're no longer talking out of your mouth.

Yep, signal tracking.

But its funny, the ending wasn't even about organics vs synthetics...it was about sacrifice....those who willing to give up themselves (or sacrifice others if need to, but remorsefully and not without thought) vs those who systematically and forcefully sacrifice others to achieve their ideals.

Nevermind th ecreation of the Catalyst fufills another major mass effect theme.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 01 mai 2013 - 03:12 .

[SilJeff]

Constant Motion wrote...

Reap_ii wrote...

the ending doesn't make sense. its jarring. it's thematically incorrect. its not foreshadowed properly. Shepard does not act like Shepard. these are facts, not opinions.

This, on the other hand, I think is basically nonsense. Control and destroy's emphasised right from the start of ME3, themes of organic tension with synthetics escalate throughout the entire series, and there's an AI character on the citadel in the very first game who has the line - and I quote this, verbatim - "I am not naive, human. All organics must destroy or control synthetic life forms."

The themes presented at the end are the themes that have been present in the series right from the start - you just weren't paying attention.

Fine to say it's not foreshadowed to your tastes. Fine to say it doesn't match your preferred themes. I'm not the opinion police, hate what you like. But know that it's just that - an opinion. The second you claim it as a fact is the second you're no longer talking out of your mouth.

I agree with this and txgoldrush's response. 

[fizzypop]

Eterna5 wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

Art is not necessarily good..

Art is subjective.

You either like it or you don't. IF you don't like it then its asinine to claim it is factually bad. 

Art can be critiqued. It can also be pleasing to the majority of people or not. You seem to be under the impression that art has no rules or boundaries, but it does. This is why good artists understand human physiology for example. To be an artist that doesn't means your work is often disliked by just about everyone because it doesn't look right, feel right, and can be confusing. This is exactly why caricatures follow guidelines. It isn't a random "lol make them look funny" there are rules you follow to create a caricature that's well perceived. Most importantly it doesn't make your viewer think which is exactly what art is about. There may be some room for minor variations, but it is afterall minor. Outliers do not make a statistic. Calling it art doesn't mean you are beyond critique either.

Any creative profession works within rules. Authors? They can't just randomly write words. Your story has to make sense. If it doesn't you'll be told the same thing bioware was told "this sucks. It doesn't make sense." Same for musicians there are rules to writing music. It isn't about putting random notes to paper. Your rhythm, pitch, and yes even the silence all play a role in how your music is percieved. Your audience is important in ALL of these mediums. If your audience doesn't understand or isn't invoking the emotions you want to portray then it is often you that's the problem, not the audience.

A good artist regardless of medium can invoke specific emotions, visions, and reactions from their work EVEN if that audience doesn't necessarily like the direction. In bioware's case they failed because the majority of their audience had no clue what was going on or what was actually happening. Art is a service just as much as it's a way for the artist  to tell their specific story, beliefs, or emotions. Only pleasing yourself as the artists is a sure fire way to alienate everyone to your ideas.

Modifié par fizzypop, 01 mai 2013 - 04:03 .

[EliseoRocha]

So a car designer creates a beautiful car and claim that it's the safest car with the most optional features around, then when you get around to buying said car that was artfully made and with all of the added features you find out that instead of the features you were promised in your order you were given something totally different. So instead of that awesome iPod integration they gave you a 3 CD changer. Are you going to say well hey, they said that the car was artistically built so I'll be okay with it even though YOU bought it with YOUR money expecting to receive what you were initially told you'd get? If so I have a car you can buy. Right now I'll claim that it has navigation in it on a decent looking body, I'll also claim that it's grey but I'll really send it to you blue. But hey I seen it as art so you should just accept it right?

[Iakus]

But clearly you are wrong/confused to actually want all those features. Everyone else is happy, the secret information says so. You just don't get it.

[EliseoRocha]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not... If I'm told that I'll get certain features and I can choose others but receive something totally different from what was promised to me them sure I'd be confused, but how would I be wrong? I ordered a product with the intent of Recieving what I was told I would get but I got something else totally different instead. Like I said, I have an artistic car to sell you, I'll tell you what features it has on it then after you buy it I'll be sure to send it to you with less features than I promised and see if my artistic integrity will be a good enough excuse for you.

[Iakus]

EliseoRocha wrote...

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not... If I'm told that I'll get certain features and I can choose others but receive something totally different from what was promised to me them sure I'd be confused, but how would I be wrong? I ordered a product with the intent of Recieving what I was told I would get but I got something else totally different instead. Like I said, I have an artistic car to sell you, I'll tell you what features it has on it then after you buy it I'll be sure to send it to you with less features than I promised and see if my artistic integrity will be a good enough excuse for you.

Oh, I'm being completely sarcastic 

Just having some fun with Biowoare's stance that anyone who has a problem with the endings is just confused, and how just about everyone actually likes the endings ("Pay no attention to the statements players have made fro an entire year, we know what people really think!") 

[EliseoRocha]

Haha Yeah I was a bit confused when you mentioned "the secret information said so." I wonder if anybody remembers whe Casey Hudson tweeted that they were working on something that'd make people want to keep their copies forever? Did something come out that I missed that made me want to keep it forever? Because after the Leviathin DLC I gave my whole trilogy to my BIL and haven't heard from him since. I wonder if he's upset with me that I didn't warn him about the ending...

[Iakus]

EliseoRocha wrote...

Haha Yeah I was a bit confused when you mentioned "the secret information said so." I wonder if anybody remembers whe Casey Hudson tweeted that they were working on something that'd make people want to keep their copies forever? Did something come out that I missed that made me want to keep it forever? Because after the Leviathin DLC I gave my whole trilogy to my BIL and haven't heard from him since. I wonder if he's upset with me that I didn't warn him about the ending...

Nah, the "secret information" is data Bioware supposedly has saying most people actually liked the endin (I don't even know how they can get that information in the first place).  But of course this is all proprietary information, so we'll just have to trust them on this.

Riiiiight....

[EliseoRocha]

Interestingly enough someone made a video showing all of the information he put together showing otherwise results to BioWares claims, shall I post the link?

[Aravius]

txgoldrush

I love when someone tells me I after 10 playthroughs that I don't understand something. I understand the issue of sacrifice. I understand what the catalyst is trying to do. What I am trying to explain to you is that with understanding,....acceptance does not always follow. Your sig tells it all. ME deserves better fans. You have a viewpoint, as do I. My sig tells my point of view. Just because I see the artistic catalyst ending and can understand sacrifice, which you're right about, doesn't have to mean that I accept the ending I paid for. I felt the ending was lacking and disjointed. And there are a lot of people that have understood the current ending, and have still felt let down. I experienced ME with my heart, as well as my head.

[EliseoRocha]

Jeez 10 playthroughs?? I could only get through one and played the Leviathan DLC then gave away my whole trilogy.

[Xamufam]

Aravius wrote...

txgoldrush

I love when someone tells me I after 10 playthroughs that I don't understand something. I understand the issue of sacrifice. I understand what the catalyst is trying to do. What I am trying to explain to you is that with understanding,....acceptance does not always follow. Your sig tells it all. ME deserves better fans. You have a viewpoint, as do I. My sig tells my point of view. Just because I see the artistic catalyst ending and can understand sacrifice, which you're right about, doesn't have to mean that I accept the ending I paid for. I felt the ending was lacking and disjointed. And there are a lot of people that have understood the current ending, and have still felt let down. I experienced ME with my heart, as well as my head.

The original ending was scrapped because of timelimit & someone that wanted it to be open ended, synthesis was actually the worst of the 3 it was supposed to give the reapers control glow boy would not be it but harby & he was going to trick shep into it but if you had more ems destroy & control would be available (sound files of joker supports it) The reapers were scared that the organics were going to build an AI to kill the reapers.
social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/16621390/3#16624681

Modifié par Troxa, 01 mai 2013 - 08:44 .

[txgoldrush]

Aravius wrote...

txgoldrush

I love when someone tells me I after 10 playthroughs that I don't understand something. I understand the issue of sacrifice. I understand what the catalyst is trying to do. What I am trying to explain to you is that with understanding,....acceptance does not always follow. Your sig tells it all. ME deserves better fans. You have a viewpoint, as do I. My sig tells my point of view. Just because I see the artistic catalyst ending and can understand sacrifice, which you're right about, doesn't have to mean that I accept the ending I paid for. I felt the ending was lacking and disjointed. And there are a lot of people that have understood the current ending, and have still felt let down. I experienced ME with my heart, as well as my head.

But it wasn't disjointed....all the themes were covered in the series and in the game and it was foreshadowed throughout.

And ever thought that ME3's ending was intended to hurt the heart a little with a bittersweet ending. Bioware WANTED to do a bittersweet ending (the new OXM interview confrims it).

[Aravius]

Troxa wrote...

Aravius wrote...

txgoldrush

I love when someone tells me I after 10 playthroughs that I don't understand something. I understand the issue of sacrifice. I understand what the catalyst is trying to do. What I am trying to explain to you is that with understanding,....acceptance does not always follow. Your sig tells it all. ME deserves better fans. You have a viewpoint, as do I. My sig tells my point of view. Just because I see the artistic catalyst ending and can understand sacrifice, which you're right about, doesn't have to mean that I accept the ending I paid for. I felt the ending was lacking and disjointed. And there are a lot of people that have understood the current ending, and have still felt let down. I experienced ME with my heart, as well as my head.

The original ending was scrapped because of timelimit & someone that wanted it to be open ended, synthesis was actually the worst of the 3 it was supposed to give the reapers control glow boy would not be it but harby & he was going to trick shep into it but if you had more ems destroy & control would be available (sound files of joker supports it) The reapers were scared that the organics were going to build an AI to kill the reapers.
social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/16621390/3#16624681

Interesting read, read like something I would have liked to play.  For the record, I never expected Shepard to live.

[EliseoRocha]

I'm not sure anybody really expected him to live, okay maybe some did but I didn't. I expected an actual final fight to the death. Similar to the lines of the final push, still fighting even while critically injured unt the end and perhaps die and my LI finishing the fight for me. Not whatever the mess was that we got... I still don't understand how the Geth/Quarian peace meant nothing in the end after all of that intense fighting and careful decision making, I was personally shocked for awhile after I did that and had no idea how I was so lucky to do it.

[Merchant2006]

Wait people still care about Mass Effect? lol

[Aravius]

Merchant2006 wrote...

Wait people still care about Mass Effect? lol

I think that Bioware made a trilogy for the ages. It's the end that is still in debate.