391 réponses à ce sujet

[Anacronian Stryx]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Claiming to be an artist doesn't make you one.

Don''t ****** in my ear and tell me it's rain.

He could be a electronic artists...like EA.

[Morty Smith]

robertthebard wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Trying to elevate games as a medium to art is just silly.

Every piece of "art" stands on it´s own. The subjective "artistic-value" of a painting is not measured by how well other paintings a received.

So what you're saying is that BSN should quit saying "Look at how well (insert game here) was received"?  Because other than that, there is no content to what you're saying.  Mass Effect, as a game, can stand on it's own.  In fact, all three do.  So I don't know what you're trying to say.  Nor do I understand the concept of "stand on it's own" as a qualifier for art.  Congrats though, you did up your post count...

No, it was my comment on the statement, that ME3´s reception would hurt games in general in beeing accepted as art and what I think about claiming that "title" for a medium.

I guessed that was easy to grasp. But then again you remind me, that there are also people like you around here.

Modifié par Kroitz, 29 mars 2013 - 12:41 .

[Obadiah]

OP, I agree with most of what you said, but I'd like to add something.

Bioware invoked "artistic" vision (I forget the exact term) but have so far shied away from explaining what that vision was. That is a problem.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, a few weeka ago there was a story on NPR about an artist in Portland who it turned out had some fairly controversial views. For years people had been collecting his art as a statement of irony, but now, suddenly, that art, because of the views of its creator, had taken on a completely different message. Galleries were now stuck displaying his work while trying to explain what it meant. People who had bought and displayed his art suddenly had to reassess what it was they had in their possession.

Of course, if it was MY art gallery I'd have just given the pieces back, but.... you know.... artists running art galleries think about this stuff more than me.

The point is, the artist's intention does matter, and though I like the ending I'd genuinely like to know what Bioware's vision of the ending was.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 mars 2013 - 02:43 .

[robertthebard]

Kroitz wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Trying to elevate games as a medium to art is just silly.

Every piece of "art" stands on it´s own. The subjective "artistic-value" of a painting is not measured by how well other paintings a received.

So what you're saying is that BSN should quit saying "Look at how well (insert game here) was received"?  Because other than that, there is no content to what you're saying.  Mass Effect, as a game, can stand on it's own.  In fact, all three do.  So I don't know what you're trying to say.  Nor do I understand the concept of "stand on it's own" as a qualifier for art.  Congrats though, you did up your post count...

No, it was my comment on the statement, that ME3´s reception would hurt games in general in beeing accepted as art and what I think about claiming that "title" for a medium.

I guessed that was easy to grasp. But then again you remind me, that there are also people like you around here.

You mean, people that read a post, and take it at face value?  I responded to what you said, I cannot respond to what you meant to say, unless what you meant to say was posted in your post.  You fell short of your own mark, I guess, or fit the little qualifier you are trying to hang on me, of "oh, you people".  Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires it, however, so is clarity in what you write.  Your failure to be clear does not equate a failure to comprehend on my part.  However, like you say, there are always people like you around BSN, so yeah...

[Morty Smith]

robertthebard wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Trying to elevate games as a medium to art is just silly.

Every piece of "art" stands on it´s own. The subjective "artistic-value" of a painting is not measured by how well other paintings a received.

So what you're saying is that BSN should quit saying "Look at how well (insert game here) was received"?  Because other than that, there is no content to what you're saying.  Mass Effect, as a game, can stand on it's own.  In fact, all three do.  So I don't know what you're trying to say.  Nor do I understand the concept of "stand on it's own" as a qualifier for art.  Congrats though, you did up your post count...

No, it was my comment on the statement, that ME3´s reception would hurt games in general in beeing accepted as art and what I think about claiming that "title" for a medium.

I guessed that was easy to grasp. But then again you remind me, that there are also people like you around here.

You mean, people that read a post, and take it at face value?  I responded to what you said, I cannot respond to what you meant to say, unless what you meant to say was posted in your post.  You fell short of your own mark, I guess, or fit the little qualifier you are trying to hang on me, of "oh, you people".  Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires it, however, so is clarity in what you write.  Your failure to be clear does not equate a failure to comprehend on my part.  However, like you say, there are always people like you around BSN, so yeah...

And there I thought you could take what you dish. If you ask polite, you get polite.

[Jadebaby]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

You got it backwards. BioWare have damaged the case for video games as art, by selling a plagiarized piece of franchise arson with brazen dishonesty, then hiding behind the "Artistic Integrity" excuse.

This x1000!

Not any one part of that ending is even original and in some cases, just flat-out copy/pasted work!

BioWare can be as edgy and "artistic" as they want, in no way should they try and appeal to everyone as that will result in a homogenized train-wreck of a game that has no uniqueness.

I believe the problem here is that throughout the Mass Effect trilogy, writers were moved around and placed in different roles, this led to the game's overall direction changing numerous times and in the end, just not making any sense at all... So you can say that it was their "artistic vision" but who specifically? Because last time I checked, BioWare isn't a person... And while it might of been the artistic vision of that one or two artists who were responsible, that "vision" could be a totally different concept to those original artists who came before...

At the end of the day, artists have the right to express whatever "piece" they want, but when the piece just doesn't match the rest of the puzzle that's being developed, it's just sheer greed and hubris if they disregard this fact and use it because they simply thought the idea was "cool".

PS- And as for the ending needing to make "immediate sense"... It's been over a damn year and I've spent hundreds of hours on here reading through discussion after discussion on it and it STILL doesn't make any sense to me! I don't think it ever will now... But sure, it was their right as artists to make the ending nonsense. Just don't expect fans to like said nonsense. Which is what they did, and even lied about it. lol they got what they deserved tbh.

Modifié par Jadebaby, 29 mars 2013 - 01:14 .

[David7204]

Nobody has used 'artistic integrity' to hide behind anything. That is just stupid nonsense, and it gets awfully annoying to hear morons shill it countless times.

[Jadebaby]

Except for Ray Muzyka in his pre-PAX speech last year. But I do agree, it has been used way too much.

Regardless, I don't think this is what we're talking about here, artistic vision =/= artistic integrity.

[chemiclord]

Muzyka used the phrase "artistic integrity" as a means to support his writers. The team didn't want to change the ending regardless of how many people complained, and he supported their decision to not do so.

Fans got a hold of the statement, ripped it of all context, and turned it into a insult meme directed at them to justify further rage.

It really isn't much more complex than that.

Modifié par chemiclord, 29 mars 2013 - 02:02 .

[Jadebaby]

And as I said previously, I agree. But again, you're doing the same thing they were now by taking a legitimate discussion about artistic vision and turning into tripe talk about artistic integrity, when I said I agreed with Spambot I didn't mean about the artistic integrity part, just the first part. But there is still the fact that they are hiding, maybe not necessarily behind artistic integrity, but they are hiding... Otherwise they would have come out and explained their art like artists SHOULD do. Basically what Obadiah said.

[CronoDragoon]

Let's step back for a bit and examine why this is even a debate to begin with. The primary reason that people want to argue that Mass Effect isn't art is that they believe it will lead to the conclusion that artistic integrity is a valid excuse to not change the ending.

It is and it's not. As Tyco from Penny Arcade posted in the midst of last March, the sudden "sacrosanctity" of story content is crazy. Stories are changed all the time for many different reasons. Artistic integrity is a fancy way of saying "I like what I made so tough."

Hard as it might be to hear, that's a completely valid reason. Of course, if you don't like that attitude, it's completely valid to not buy their next product.

[CronoDragoon]

Jadebaby wrote...
Otherwise they would have come out and explained their art like artists SHOULD do.

What? Artists have to explain their art now?

[chemiclord]

Jadebaby wrote...

And as I said previously, I agree. But again, you're doing the same thing they were now by taking a legitimate discussion about artistic vision and turning into tripe talk about artistic integrity, when I said I agreed with Spambot I didn't mean about the artistic integrity part, just the first part. But there is still the fact that they are hiding, maybe not necessarily behind artistic integrity, but they are hiding... Otherwise they would have come out and explained their art like artists SHOULD do. Basically what Obadiah said.

For what it's worth, I had intended to reply to the comment above yours, but I think I accidentially deleted the ENTIRE quote rather than the parts I had wanted to snip.

As for the "hiding", I'm not sure they are "hiding" all that more than they usually do.  I don't recall any of the ME team being particularly active in this forum to begin with, and many of them never posted here at all even when everyone loved everything they did.

That said, yeah, I still roll my eyes when I think about Gamble's half-hearted attempt at "dialogue"; where he ran away the moment TWO clowns started trolling and left the plethora of rational discourse wondering what the hell happened.  

If they're waiting for that wonderful moment where NO ONE is going to rage, we're all going to be waiting forever for a dialogue with the creators... and that's stupid.  You IGNORE the trolls, you don't let them dictate the terms of the discourse like Bioware has to this point.

[chemiclord]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...
Otherwise they would have come out and explained their art like artists SHOULD do.

What? Artists have to explain their art now?

They don't HAVE to; but in this age of social media it's become (rightly or wrongly) an expectation.

[CronoDragoon]

chemiclord wrote...
They don't HAVE to; but in this age of social media it's become (rightly or wrongly) an expectation.

Well, maybe if something is so impenetrable as to be downright confusing. But in the case that you relate that to the OEs, the EC is their explanation. If you don't like their explanation, does there need to be an explanation of the explanation? 

[Jadebaby]

chemiclord wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

And as I said previously, I agree. But again, you're doing the same thing they were now by taking a legitimate discussion about artistic vision and turning into tripe talk about artistic integrity, when I said I agreed with Spambot I didn't mean about the artistic integrity part, just the first part. But there is still the fact that they are hiding, maybe not necessarily behind artistic integrity, but they are hiding... Otherwise they would have come out and explained their art like artists SHOULD do. Basically what Obadiah said.

For what it's worth, I had intended to reply to the comment above yours, but I think I accidentially deleted the ENTIRE quote rather than the parts I had wanted to snip.

As for the "hiding", I'm not sure they are "hiding" all that more than they usually do.  I don't recall any of the ME team being particularly active in this forum to begin with, and many of them never posted here at all even when everyone loved everything they did.

That said, yeah, I still roll my eyes when I think about Gamble's half-hearted attempt at "dialogue"; where he ran away the moment TWO clowns started trolling and left the plethora of rational discourse wondering what the hell happened.  

If they're waiting for that wonderful moment where NO ONE is going to rage, we're all going to be waiting forever for a dialogue with the creators... and that's stupid.  You IGNORE the trolls, you don't let them dictate the terms of the discourse like Bioware has to this point.

Exactly, which is why I think they just use them as an excuse not to converse...

Either way, I'm not even talking about just on the forums, I'm talking about ANY time, conventions, meetings, interviews... There's many more opportunities to explain their art piece than on the BSN or any other forum.. Heck even a blog by one of them would do wonders...

[Obadiah]

... or a simple stickied FAQ post, at least to get people to stop misquoting them.

Modifié par Obadiah, 29 mars 2013 - 02:48 .

[CronoDragoon]

Obadiah wrote...

... or a simple stickied post, at least to get people to stop misquoting them.

If people want to intentionally misrepresent what they said a sticky ain't gonna stop it.

[dreamgazer]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...
Otherwise they would have come out and explained their art like artists SHOULD do.

What? Artists have to explain their art now?

No, not at all, but exhibitions of their work are a lot more interesting if the creators engage the audience and expound on their process.

[JamesFaith]

Obadiah wrote...

... or a simple stickied FAQ post, at least to get people to stop misquoting them.

Some people misunderstanded them, but other know true and they are still using twisted quotes as weapons. I personally more then once corrected one guy here about "too videogamey" quote, yet he still using it because every weapon is good in his "fight" against BW.

Some people simply don't care about true meaning of these quotes, they are OK with their twisted version.

[CronoDragoon]

dreamgazer wrote...

No, not at all, but exhibitions of their work are a lot more interesting if the creators engage the audience and expound on their process.

In some cases. But I know more than a few stories that became less interesting once I learned the creator's intent behind the story.

[NoReapers]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Can't you see? It all makes perfect sense. Expressed in dollars and cents, pounds schillings and pence.

Roger Waters?

[Alien Number Six]

The endings where too short. They were fleshed out with extended cut. That is all I wanted and I got it. I will go on to say that many of the fans took the series way too seriously. Sometimes you have to see things for what they are and relax.

[AlanC9]

chemiclord wrote...

They don't HAVE to; but in this age of social media it's become (rightly or wrongly) an expectation.

I'm still waiting for Paul Thomas Anderson to explain The Master.

[Iakus]

MrDavid wrote...


2) Not every game qualifies as art, certainly not games like Battlefield, Call of Duty or FIFA. This is precisely the problem, not enough big franchises are trying to be anything more than entertainment. The Mass Effect trilogy has been called gaming's first epic, in that the three games all connect together to tell a larger story. It's more than a trilogy of games in the same way the Star Wars (the originals) is more than three movies or the Lord of the Rings is more than three books. I think this elevates Mass Effect above simply entertainment, at least for me (your opinino may differ).

What was elevating the Mass Effect trilogy wasn't just that it was three games that told a single larger story (heck the trilogy is full of contradictions, retcons, and character changes for that alone to elevate the game) but that player choices were being remembered and imported into subsequent games.  The chocies the players made were helping to advance and even shape later events in the story.

And then the endings happened, where nothing we did really amounted to anything but an arbitrary number to unlock a color.  Even that could be circumvented by doing multiplayer.  In the end, choice was taken away from us.  There is only do something terrible to the galaxy and then die  (yes, months later with EC, you could get the deliberately ambiguous breath scene)  Our Shepard becomes Bioware's Shepard.  And if you don't like where things are going, then tough.  As a line I heard and found appropriate goes: "No matter how much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference"

3) There is no way around it; Mass Effect 3 is a terrific game (or a terrific shooter if you're into that sort of thing). I thought that was a bit more obvious. The ending is what is is but I don't think it lessens the value of the entire product to the point that you're owed something by Bioware. Not after the extended cut anyways. There's nothing wrong with wanting more, even if the ending ruins the entire game I don't think it means Bioware owes you. ie: If you go see a movie and it sucks then you have every right to criticize it. I don't think however, that the director owes you a better movie (maybe two hours of your life back).

Sorry, I disagree with the first part.  ME3's ending rendered not just ME3 pointless, but the entire trilogy(to me, at least).  I need more than shooting mechanics to keep me interested in a game.  And seeing these characters, knowing that there's not a darn thing I can do to change their fate,...well, untl I discovered MEHEM, I uninstalled the entire trilogy.  At the very least, I deserve an explanation.  

And if they ever want me to buy more products, they also need to tell me why I should trust them to invest in any character I'd make in a subsequent game.

4) I don't know if this counts but I would say that people aren't going to forget Mass Effect 3's ending anytime soon. So does that mean it stands the test of time? I mean it's been a year and clearly we all are very passionate about it. Just some food for thought.

Ed Wood movies have stood the test of time too, just saying...

Modifié par iakus, 29 mars 2013 - 04:59 .