391 réponses à ce sujet

[Archonsg]

Planescape : Torment is one of few games that did a Pyrrhic Victory ending well.
I actually love that game.
However, PsT did one thing ME3 did not, even as the Nameless one, you pick up a weapon and walk towards your end, it made sense and at no point did the player felt that this person at the end, wasn't the same being you played for hours (days, weeks).

Which other games were you thinking of?

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

So Planescape: Torment is an unwinnable game? I'll name more if you like.

yes, it took what might have been the greatest video game narrative ever to pull off an "inescapable death of the protagonist" ending in a choice based rpg.

Also had the advantage that you can actually see The Nameless One pick up a weapon and join teh Blood War.  This is a reminder 9reinforced by at least two of TNO's companions,namely Morte and Vhailor) that death is no necessarilly the end in teh D&D universe.

Anyway, Shep obviously lives in high-EMS Destroy.

No, Shepard obviously survives in high-EMS destroy.  Whether Shepard "lives" is deliberately left ambiguous.  There is a big difference.

Modifié par iakus, 30 mars 2013 - 04:38 .

[Archonsg]

@iakus

Don't forget Dakkon.
His philosophical take on things kinda foreshadowed the end as well.

Deionarra too, though she tries to hide it if I remember. 

But in any case, if Planescape : Torment is to be used in any comparison to ME3, its to illustrate *NARRATIVE* and the difference between good collaboration of writers and just two persons hacking out an ending without oversight. 

Modifié par Archonsg, 30 mars 2013 - 04:55 .

[TheAdventurer29]

People don't understand the meaning of art. Journey, Flower, Mass Effect etc.. are all art. It's not because they look good or fun. It is because they carry the soul of the developers who put their heart in making their games.

[AlexMBrennan]

Maybe I should have made it clearer that I question the "never before bit" because things like Broken Steel DLC comes to mind.
And Bioware has been changing games based on fan feedback as far back as Baldur's Gate (players didn't like being forced to take an evil thief so they added good-aligned thief Imoen - admittedly prior to release). They did it again in BG2 when players didn't like her dying in Spellhold. Is the game any worse off for that? Would it have been worse if they had changed that using DLC? It cannot possibly set a dangerous precedent as this is the way they have been doing things all along.

Where were the media and people like OP back then? Why didn't they demand that Bioware stick to their artistic vision and remove her from the game? The answer is really quite simple - "artistic integrity" is diversion.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 30 mars 2013 - 05:37 .

[Archonsg]

TheAdventurer29 wrote...

People don't understand the meaning of art. Journey, Flower, Mass Effect etc.. are all art. It's not because they look good or fun. It is because they carry the soul of the developers who put their heart in making their games.

To be clear, I saw art and the soul of those who put their all into the game.
It wasn't perfect, but it was beautiful.

Right up to that last few minutes.
Then the people who came up with that pile of crap, took everything before it and shat on top of it.

All we asked for, was for the crap to be cleaned up.
But noooooo, .... SPACE MAGIC! LALA land time! 

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Nice blog.

[Iakus]

Archonsg wrote...

@iakus

Don't forget Dakkon.
His philosophical take on things kinda foreshadowed the end as well.

Deionarra too, though she tries to hide it if I remember. 

But in any case, if Planescape : Torment is to be used in any comparison to ME3, its to illustrate *NARRATIVE* and the difference between good collaboration of writers and just two persons hacking out an ending without oversight. 

I was actually rferring to their state of existence:  Morte being a sort of refugee from the Pillar of Skulls, Vhailor being the spirit of a Mercykiller animating his old suit of armor.   "Death" is a very fluid definition in that setting

It's not hard to headcanon that The Nameless One's adventures continue even after the game ends.

[Eretikas]

I draw the line at the fact that Bioware see themselves as artists and as artists they are entitled to write an ending that they are satisfied with.

There is a difference between pure art and the product which was intended for sale on massive scale for the profit. 3 tier weeding cakes could be seen as form of art, but nobody expects to find thin layer of excrements on the bottom because baker wanted to express his vision on life that day. I play games for entertainment. I like dark games like Dead Space too, but I have not expected for my Mass Effect paragon to be "rewarded" with **** slap in the face by my arch enemy and renegade choices at the end. It is not a very good art when you create "Star Wars" saga and then end it like "Final Destination".

I think, this video perfectly explains how ending was created. It even contains customer's reaction at the end:

Modifié par Eretikas, 30 mars 2013 - 07:34 .

[Arisugawa]

Or...it might not be about consumerism vs artistic integrity at all. It might be about the relationship between an artist and their patron.

If you are an artist and create a work of your own volition and funding, you are free to craft it in the manner you chose to.

If I am an observer to that art and notice flaws, I am free to criticize it. I am also free to stop observing it.

So, if I go to a museum and dislike a painting, I am free to criticize and stop observing it. If I hear your music at a public performance, I am free to walk out or not purchase it later.

However, if you are artist seeking a patron to fund your work, and you come to me with a vision explaining what you plan to deliver and then deliver to me something else, I as your patron have the right to ask you to honor our arrangement and produce the art that was agreed upon when I funded your endeavor.

If we cannot come to a satisfactory resolution, I am completely free to stop being your patron and you can find your financial support elsewhere.

This relates back to Archengeia's original videos regarding having trust in the producer of the game and the feelings of having that trust betrayed.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 31 mars 2013 - 08:13 .

[Auld Wulf]

Criticism ~= Vitriol. It's rarely the former and as close to exclusively the latter as it could be. From what I've seen, gamers aren't good at constructive criticism. It lead me to coin the term "destructive" criticism. That's seen here, as other parts of the Internet refer to BSN as the Bioware Sociopath Network, and BioWare themselves find it to be an incredibly toxic environment.

So there's criticism. And then there's whatever nasty bile it is that gamers tend to have.

Just saying.

[MetioricTest]

God damn it's been a year already? This game still feels so new...

But yeah. Hating on fans for hating on a game's ending for being bad seems crazy. I am unsure what the point of this thread is.

Fans were unhappy, so said they were unhappy and asked for better. I don't see how that is a bad thing. In fact it's an immensely good thing. That's how the world should be, that's how things improve. That's why for better or worse there was no Mako, romancable Garrus and new combat in ME2.

It's just being a impotent consumer to say you will never criticize or ask for better/more.

[ThinkSharp]

Getorex wrote...

It's quite simple really. If playing (or designing) a game, the player should be able to actually WIN the game (and the designer should make it possible). No one wants to play a game that cannot be won and YOUR character (Shepard IS an extension of the player, not some mythical real person...YOU the player) getting killed off no matter how you play, no matter how well you play, is not winning.

MEHEM replaces the flawed endings and gives the player an actual chance to win the game. Future version (next? v0.4?) will allow you to screw it up and not "win" in that you get your Shep killed.

I guess I'm the one who doesn't mind playing a game that can't be "won" by your definition of the protagonist surviving. That's such a narrow definition and it flies in the face of many stories throughout history about heroes and etc.

There are plenty of complaints to be made against the ending, but this is the one that I fail to understand. Is there some way that a hero who ultimately dies could be a victory for you in a game?  Or do you really mean that no matter what they have to live--because that limits choice/creativity/suspense (using these adjectives to describe an ideal ending of a game of this type, not necessarily ME3 itself) as much as anything else.
 

Modifié par ThinkSharp, 31 mars 2013 - 03:54 .

[spacehamsterZH]

I'm sure this has been said a dozen times by now, but I'll just repeat it - I actually agree with the OPs stance that the way people laughed at the idea of artistic integrity in videogame writing is sad, and that this attitude is holding the medium back.

But here's the thing: the Mass Effect 3 ending doesn't suck because it's "art", it sucks because it's a badly written, illogical, nonsensical, pretentious pile of bleargh. There are plenty of artistically ambitious games out there that manage not to shoot themselves in the foot in their final 30 minutes in the name of art.

[STAR_KILLER423]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

I'm sure this has been said a dozen times by now, but I'll just repeat it - I actually agree with the OPs stance that the way people laughed at the idea of artistic integrity in videogame writing is sad, and that this attitude is holding the medium back.

But here's the thing: the Mass Effect 3 ending doesn't suck because it's "art", it sucks because it's a badly written, illogical, nonsensical, pretentious pile of bleargh. There are plenty of artistically ambitious games out there that manage not to shoot themselves in the foot in their final 30 minutes in the name of art.

This.

I personally believe video games are indeed, art. Given the definition that are is a form of expression, which video games are. 

So sure, developers certainly have an aspect of artistic integity to up-hold with their games. They can do what they want with their vision and thats their right. But Bioware created this universe and all these characters in it, and then went against established personalities and lore. That is why the endings is terrible.

[cyrslash1974]

I have a lot of difficulty to replay or to finish a new ME3 cession because I know the destination of the game.

Because I dislike "art" or because I consider that the ending is badly written, a debacle, stupid and illogical ?

I let you guess.

[MetioricTest]

MrDavid : "Fanbase, is the MEHEM ready?

Fanbase: "Yes!  Uploaded for download in 2 minutes... But retakers...dead."

MrDavid : "What happened?!"

Fanbase: "Stress levels too intense, too much drama.  Wanted it not to stop, they refused. Their decision."

MrDavid : "A lot of headcanons died today, nothing we can do."

Fanbase: "Retakers were stabilizing force, would have helped us rally more fans in support. Disgranted fans on the Bioware Social Network, must set MEHEM up. "

MrDavid : "You're going on there?"

Fanbase: "Yes, opinion polls online suggest temper explosions. Could effect opinion viability. Need to adjust ending manually."

MrDavid : "It's too dangerous! We need to stay off of there!"

Fanbase: "No, temper  variance could destroy the franchise, need to go on."

MrDavid : ".....You're not going online."

Fanbase: "Not concerned for my safety. Discover something? Criticism? But whose?...... Ah. Why David? That desperate for artistic vision? Or that afraid of fan 'entitlement'?"

MrDavid : "Every time we've talked about Mass Effect 3 before, you've defended it! Hell you destroyed the Indoctrination Theory! How can you change your mind now!?"

Fanbase: "I MADE A MISTAKE! ..... I made .. a mistake... Focused on the journey, journey made of little choices. Too many variables. Can't hide behind excuses, can't ignore fan reaction,  our responsibility! Need to go! Running out of time!"

MrDavid : "...... Walk away..."

Fanbase: "...Can't do that David...

MrDavid : " I don't have a choice here. Walk away or I will blog."

Fanbase: "Not your decision, not your work, not your ending! Had to be us. Someone else might have gotten it wrong! No time to argue, MEHEM upload imminent, must counter-act Hudson. Stop me if you must."

Modifié par MetioricTest, 03 avril 2013 - 02:01 .

[EloreRainbrought]

MetioricTest wrote...

MrDavid : "Fanbase, is the MEHEM ready?

Fanbase: "Yes!  Uploaded for download in 2 minutes... But retakers...dead."

MrDavid : "What happened?!"

Fanbase: "Stress levels too intense, too much drama.  Wanted it not to stop, they refused. Their decision."

MrDavid : "A lot of headcanons died today, nothing we can do."

Fanbase: "Retakers were stabilizing force, would have helped us rally more fans in support. Disgranted fans on the Bioware Social Network, must set MEHEM up. "

MrDavid : "You're going on there?"

Fanbase: "Yes, opinion polls online suggest temper explosions. Could effect opinion viability. Need to adjust ending manually."

MrDavid : "It's too dangerous! We need to stay off of there!"

Fanbase: "No, temper  variance could destroy the franchise, need to go on."

MrDavid : ".....You're not going online."

Fanbase: "Not concerned for my safety. Discover something? Criticism? But whose?...... Ah. Why David? That desperate for artistic vision? Or that afraid of fan 'entitlement'?"

MrDavid : "Every time we've talked about Mass Effect 3 before, you've defended it! Hell you destroyed the Indoctrination Theory! How can you change your mind now!?"

Fanbase: "I MADE A MISTAKE! ..... I made .. a mistake... Focused on the journey, journey made of little choices. Too many variables. Can't hide behind excuses, can't ignore fan reaction,  our responsibility! Need to go! Running out of time!"

MrDavid : "...... Walk away..."

Fanbase: "...Can't do that David...

MrDavid : " I don't have a choice here. Walk away or I will blog."

Fanbase: "Not your decision, not your work, not your ending! Had to be us. Someone else might have gotten it wrong! No time to argue, MEHEM upload imminent, must counter-act Hudson. Stop me if you must."

request a paragon integration after this sentence.

[MrDavid]

MetioricTest wrote...

MrDavid : "Fanbase, is the MEHEM ready?

Fanbase: "Yes!  Uploaded for download in 2 minutes... But retakers...dead."

MrDavid : "What happened?!"

Fanbase: "Stress levels too intense, too much drama.  Wanted it not to stop, they refused. Their decision."

MrDavid : "A lot of headcanons died today, nothing we can do."

Fanbase: "Retakers were stabilizing force, would have helped us rally more fans in support. Disgranted fans on the Bioware Social Network, must set MEHEM up. "

MrDavid : "You're going on there?"

Fanbase: "Yes, opinion polls online suggest temper explosions. Could effect opinion viability. Need to adjust ending manually."

MrDavid : "It's too dangerous! We need to stay off of there!"

Fanbase: "No, temper  variance could destroy the franchise, need to go on."

MrDavid : ".....You're not going online."

Fanbase: "Not concerned for my safety. Discover something? Criticism? But whose?...... Ah. Why David? That desperate for artistic vision? Or that afraid of fan 'entitlement'?"

MrDavid : "Every time we've talked about Mass Effect 3 before, you've defended it! Hell you destroyed the Indoctrination Theory! How can you change your mind now!?"

Fanbase: "I MADE A MISTAKE! ..... I made .. a mistake... Focused on the journey, journey made of little choices. Too many variables. Can't hide behind excuses, can't ignore fan reaction,  our responsibility! Need to go! Running out of time!"

MrDavid : "...... Walk away..."

Fanbase: "...Can't do that David...

MrDavid : " I don't have a choice here. Walk away or I will blog."

Fanbase: "Not your decision, not your work, not your ending! Had to be us. Someone else might have gotten it wrong! No time to argue, MEHEM upload imminent, must counter-act Hudson. Stop me if you must."

I seriously can't argue with anything this awesome. I owe you a cookie.

[3DandBeyond]

frostajulie wrote...

you good sir feel free to purchase your art. I for one choose to purchase a video game that is fun to play and delivers an ending that fits within established lore and narrative.

Well said.

I also look at the fact that there is art in doing just such a thing.  Contrived and overly derivative works that try too hard to appear artistic often (and in this case) aren't. 

[3DandBeyond]

Archonsg wrote...

TheAdventurer29 wrote...

People don't understand the meaning of art. Journey, Flower, Mass Effect etc.. are all art. It's not because they look good or fun. It is because they carry the soul of the developers who put their heart in making their games.

To be clear, I saw art and the soul of those who put their all into the game.
It wasn't perfect, but it was beautiful.

Right up to that last few minutes.
Then the people who came up with that pile of crap, took everything before it and shat on top of it.

All we asked for, was for the crap to be cleaned up.
But noooooo, .... SPACE MAGIC! LALA land time! 

Yep this.

The art was contained within the characters and the interaction and some of the stories and how they played out.  The integrity of the art would have been upheld had the narrative and the characters been remembered and adhered to.

I'm reading a Ben Bova book on Science Fiction writing and in about 5 pages I've already been able to see how far off track BW was with this ending.

Ben Bova wrote that it's always all about the characters.  The mistake that many people make in creating a Science Fiction piece is that they think the axternal material will carry the thing-it looks cool, it's set in exotic places and all that, but it's the characters that matter.  This is my summation of part of what he wrote.  I've only read a little bit of it so far but BW's mistakes are glaring.  One main point was about the main character's goal and how important it is to the story.  BW totally misplaced Shepard's goal at the end.  So much for art.

[KingZayd]

If the art I paid for is bad, my unhappiness is justified.

[Kesak12]

frostajulie wrote...

you good sir feel free to purchase your art. I for one choose to purchase a video game that is fun to play and delivers an ending that fits within established lore and narrative.

[chemiclord]

Arisugawa wrote...

Or...it might not be about consumerism vs artistic integrity at all. It might be about the relationship between an artist and their patron.

If you are an artist and create a work of your own volition and funding, you are free to craft it in the manner you chose to.

If I am an observer to that art and notice flaws, I am free to criticize it. I am also free to stop observing it.

So, if I go to a museum and dislike a painting, I am free to criticize and stop observing it. If I hear your music at a public performance, I am free to walk out or not purchase it later.

However, if you are artist seeking a patron to fund your work, and you come to me with a vision explaining what you plan to deliver and then deliver to me something else, I as your patron have the right to ask you to honor our arrangement and produce the art that was agreed upon when I funded your endeavor.

If we cannot come to a satisfactory resolution, I am completely free to stop being your patron and you can find your financial support elsewhere.

This relates back to Archengeia's original videos regarding having trust in the producer of the game and the feelings of having that trust betrayed.

The problem here is that what video games (or any mass produced "art") do isn't quite like self-funded artwork OR patron supported artwork.

It's a bit more like an artist produces 10,000 art prints.  You may not like one element of that print, and then claim you are a patron and demand it to be changed?  That really... isn't how it works.  You are but one of MANY supporters.  You may have been EXPECTING something else, but there was no direct promise, no contract, made to YOU.  You didn't commission anything.  You bought something already produced.  If you bought it sight unseen, that really is NOT the artist's problem.

You are NOT Bioware's patron... but at the same time it's not like Bioware can produce these games on their own.  It falls somewhere in the middle, where a whole bunch of feedback has to be considered, and yes, that often means taking the path of least resistance.  It's not as simple as "FIX IT."  What you consider "fixing it" might very well "break it" for someone else, and that's person's opinion carries just as much weight as yours.  At the same time, the artist may decide it's not broken... and at that point, your opinion frankly matters little as it pertains to the work you purchased.

At that point, your only recourse is to walk away.

[Dubozz]

frostajulie wrote...

you good sir feel free to purchase your art. I for one choose to purchase a video game that is fun to play and delivers an ending that fits within established lore and narrative.