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[Xilizhra]

This is across all Bioware games, but this forum is with the game where it could be prevented. So I'm posting here.

Observing and listing the various lesbian relationships that occur in the background across Bioware's two latest series... I've noticed that every single one seems to be tragic, doomed or otherwise unpleasantly dramatic. And there are actually a fair number of these.

ME1: Benezia/Aethyta. This one at least has a more ordinary reason for falling apart, and isn't as bad as the other ones that occur later... but it could be taken as a warning of things to come, and still ends badly.
DAO: And here's where the trouble begins. Leliana/Marjolaine is bad enough, but Branka/Hespith is nearly gratuitous in its wallowing in drama (in fact, given the ultimate outcome, it may be the most dysfunctional relationship in the franchise). And as sort of a sick little bonus feature, there's Marjolaine's seduction of Dorothea in Leliana's Song.
ME2: Morinth/Nef is the one that most obviously jumps out here (at least it ends less painfully than Branka/Hespith, even if the ultimate outcome is the same), but then there's also the collapse of Samara's relationship, presumably because of AY-related complications... either that or Samara going justicar, but it seems to have ended earlier than that. And then, for no apparent reason, we got a news story about some asari sanitation worker who was murdered by a human because of her relationship with his ex-wife.
DA2: No background lesbian relationships at all, which is... progress? Or not. It's hard to say.
ME3: So here we have some human woman apparently cheating on her husband with an asari, a relationship which eventually breaks up in its own right, apparently. Then there's another human woman trying to get her asari daughter to Thessia... which succeeds, yes, but given Thessia's ultimate fate, this just seems to be ****ed irony. Finally (in the main game, anyway), there's some random fetch quest where you have to convey that some commando on Lessus got killed, to her asari bondmate. Oh, and as if there weren't enough of these already, we get the Aria/Nyreen thing in Omega.

And now, it seems, the Masked Empire book is going to do the same damn thing with Celene and Briala. What is with this pattern, Bioware? It seems to be consistently committed by different people, so I don't know if it's an issue with a single writer... is it some kind of corporate culture issue? An addiction to certain tropes? Because while there are certainly plenty of straight relationships that have the same issues, there are also those that work out basically fine, and even one gay male one that seems to be going well (Wade/Herren). So again, I must ask; what is the reason for this pattern?

[King Cousland]

Yes, I'm sure that BioWare writers twirl their moustaches with evil glee thinking of the ways they can marginalise lesbians in their next product...

On a more serious note:

• It's almost certainly a coincidence.
• Some of the relationships you've listed were based on passion, not genuine affection (and I'd hardly call some of them "tragic"... some were pretty minor), BioWare doesn't have an agenda against lesbians in genuinely loving relationships
• We know nothing about Celene and Briala's relationship other than that Briala's loyalties will be tested. I'd suggest that any indignation should be reserved for when you've actually read the novel.
• Surely we shouldn't be singling out these romances as "lesbian relationships" which end in tragedy, but simply relationships which end in tragedy? In which case, they're only part of a laundry list of doomed BioWare couples. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 29 mars 2013 - 05:47 .

[syllogi]

I would say that your examples aren't necessarily indicative of a trend if we also saw relatively healthy background lesbian relationships, but I'm trying, and I can't think of any at the moment. Not that my memory should be relied on at all, but now that it's being mentioned, yeah, I see the problem.

[Reznore57]

The only things that really bother me ...and it's something I've noticed not in DA...is lesbians affair are like the glass of wine you drink after a bad day at work.

Powerful women who slept with the servant who's just there , it's more like a naughty pyjama party and less like a relationship.

But about what you're talking Xilizhra , it seems to me most relationship in DA well just...sucks.
Cailan and Anora .
Gamlen and his love.
Leandra who gave up everything for Malcolm , and end up poor.
Oghren and his wife...
Wynne and the templar , she had a son with, probably just a booty call.
Lily and Jowan ...

Etc.

About Wade and Herren , I didn't even pick up they were a couple.

[brushyourteeth]

I think the "doomed and/or sick and/or twisted" situation is pretty well spread apart across romantic pairings of all sexualities.

But I do support the request for more examples of happy npc gay/lesbian relationships in the future.

[In Exile]

Are there any relationships in a Bioware game that haven't ended terribly/tragically? For example, Maric + anyone he ever loved = bad news bears.

Varric was axed as an LI (among other reasons) because there'd be no 'drama' in the relationship (vs. Isabella/Merril/Anders/Fenris).

It's all drama. I don't think Bioware has a problem with portraying healthy lesbian relationships - they don't like healthy relationships period.

[Maria Caliban]

Writers are told that if they want to show a same-sex couple, there ought to be a reason. Otherwise, it's gratuitous on some level. I wouldn't be surprised if this gets internalized.

Filament wrote...

There are also the gay relationships that aren't very happy, Anders/Karl and Fenris/Denarius.

Steve and his dead husband.

[n7stormrunner]

Reznore57 wrote...

About Wade and Herren , I didn't even pick up they were a couple.

really?, 

[Reznore57]

Well no I didn't know , N7stormrunner.
In the game of throne book , I didn't even understand Loras and what's his name the King little brother had an affair.
I read it on the internet later.

It's just something I don't notice .

[brushyourteeth]

n7stormrunner wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

About Wade and Herren , I didn't even pick up they were a couple.

really?, 

 LOL! No joke.
 
I'm pretty sure the sexual tension between those two is the secret fire that forges Wade's super-amazing armors.

[andy6915]

Wade and Haren aren't a gay couple. One of them is a Desire Demon, who at best are female and are at worst sexless. Either way, it's actually not gay... Even if it's not obvious.

As to the main point of the thread, I think you're seeing patterns that aren't there. You can find just as many straight relationships that go to hell too. Some others have listed examples, and I have another one for the pile: Zevran's relationship with that girl who he later kills and spits on while she dies , and they loved each other and Zevran killed her thinking she betrayed them.

[King Cousland]

andy69156915 wrote...

Wade and Haren aren't a gay couple. One of them is a Desire Demon, who at best are female and are at worst sexless. Either way, it's actually not gay... Even if it's not obvious.

Yes, they are gay, and yes, they are a couple. Also, the Darkspawn Chronicles is not canon, so I seriously doubt that Herren is actually a desire demon. 

Modifié par King Cousland, 29 mars 2013 - 05:52 .

[andy6915]

Not canon insofar that the actual events don't play out like that because of your Warden not being around to kick ass. But as far as how canon it is about NPC's? Probably on the positive side. After all, your character surviving the joining isn't going to suddenly make Haren NOT a desire demon in that timeline. The 2 things are totally unrelated. Your Warden dying or living isn't going to change what or who an NPC is.

Modifié par andy69156915, 29 mars 2013 - 05:55 .

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Steve and his dead husband.

On other other hand, they did have Steve/Shepard, which with the citadel DLC I thought was just a lovely portrayal of a relationship. Except for the whole ending bit.

[andy6915]

Where? I know it's been confirmed that they're a gay couple (sort of), but where was it confirmed he's not actually a Desire Demon? As far as I can tell, Haren is some kind of unique demon who's more human and caring then other demons and took on a human form and fell in love with a certain blacksmith and will use her powers to keep him safe.

[Masha Potato]

http://tvtropes.org/...in/BuryYourGays

[New Display Name]

How many non-tragic straight couples are there in-game in Dragon Age (besides player romances, obviously)?

[Iakus]

Reznore57 wrote...

The only things that really bother me ...and it's something I've noticed not in DA...is lesbians affair are like the glass of wine you drink after a bad day at work.

Powerful women who slept with the servant who's just there , it's more like a naughty pyjama party and less like a relationship.

But about what you're talking Xilizhra , it seems to me most relationship in DA well just...sucks.
Cailan and Anora .
Gamlen and his love.
Leandra who gave up everything for Malcolm , and end up poor.
Oghren and his wife...
Wynne and the templar , she had a son with, probably just a booty call.
Lily and Jowan ...

Etc.

About Wade and Herren , I didn't even pick up they were a couple.

Zevran and Rinna 
Zevran's mother and the elvish woodcutter
Athras and Danyla (elven woman turned into a werewolf)
All those death notices you have to deliver to widows for the Blackstone Irregulars

This doesn't even factor in the parent/child relationships that end badly.

Basically life sucks in Thedas 

[andy6915]

Uh... Your link's a bit messed up. It has 2 "http"s in it. Oh well, some minor link fixing got me to the destination.

AWWWW... For so many playthroughs now I've always thought it was so interesting knowing I was talking to a Desire Demon every time I went into Wade's shop, and how funny it is when he gets so angry at me for bringing too many scales. A demon acting like that is funnier then a human acting like that. Now I find out that he really was just a boring human after all?

Andy not happy.

Modifié par andy69156915, 29 mars 2013 - 06:11 .