490 réponses à ce sujet

[MissOuJ]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Something doesn't have to be intentional in order to send a message.

Well, at least we're all getting insulted now (including me).

I'm rather proud of attempting to be more inclusive in our stories and characters, and at this point I think it's best for me to just take a break rather than have people tell me that our attempts have only made things worse because we're sending hidden messages.  Doubly so for actually suggesting in a different post that it's like we're suggesting that if they were in heterosexual relationships things would have been fine.

At this point, I hope the writers just do what they want to do.  If it's not good enough for some, so be it.

... why would you be offended?

I'm serious, I can't for the life of me to understand why you (or anybody reading this thead) would be offended by the criticism in this thead. People are pointing out a trend, and explaining why it's problematic. I haven't read a single post stating that BW has some company-wide homophobic agenda, which is geared to show only unhappy female SS relationships, or anything of that nature.

I have gay friends, and I have stayed stuff in the past that has made them uncomfortable. When they confronted me with the things I'd said, I didn't go " Well, now I'm offended that you are implying I am homophobic, even thought I hang out with you guys!" I said "I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was making you uncomfortable. I won't be doing that again."

Acknowledging your social biases and priviledges means that at some point, when we screw up (because we most certainly do) and a member of a minority points it out to us, we should listen to their grievances and try to do better next time. This is not about how we feel, this is about how the stuff we do makes them feel.

I can see this thead bringing out a lot of emotions, but I honestly can't see how anyone working for BW would be offended by this thead. Plus, we only criticize because we love you, and want you to do even better.

wetnasty wrote...

Jeff and EDI don't end out well if you choose to destroy all synthetics. There is also the possibility of your squadmates dying in ME3, so any squadmate pairings don't count.

Same with Fenris and Isabela. There is a possibility that Isabela never comes back... There's a possibility that you kill Fenris. 

Gabby and Kenneth are an optional quest, and I NEVER got them together or even knew that it was possible to get them together until someone told me way after 5 or 6 of my playthroughs. 

So that just leaves Aveline and Donnic? And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that an optional side quest? 

You are correct, but there's still the fact that there are no examples of steady, happy NPC female SS relationships, optional sidequest/obscure or not, in either games. Or if there are, I can't name one - can you?

Again: nobody is saying all opposite sex relationships end with rainbows and puppies, or that all SS relationships should end with rainbows and puppies, or that tragic lovestories aren't welcome. We're saying that there seems to be a trend here, and its implications are somewhat problematic.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 30 mars 2013 - 07:37 .

[slimgrin]

Foshizzlin wrote...

Every lesbian romance is evil? Technically it's one woman uses a good one, like Marjolaine and Leliana. It's not really "evil", it's just tragic because good people are hurt by bad ones.

If I know anything about this fanbase, it's that they want to be empowered. Constantly. They don't want to be challenged, they don't want to be made to feel uncomfortable.

[David Gaider]

Xilizhra wrote...
What is with this pattern, Bioware? It seems to be consistently committed by different people, so I don't know if it's an issue with a single writer... is it some kind of corporate culture issue? An addiction to certain tropes? Because while there are certainly plenty of straight relationships that have the same issues, there are also those that work out basically fine, and even one gay male one that seems to be going well (Wade/Herren). So again, I must ask; what is the reason for this pattern?

Thank you for pointing out this issue. I wasn't aware there was that many relationships in the Dragon Age which could be perceived as happy and working out well. Clearly the writers slipped a few by me. I'll need to work on that, clearly.

[Willowhugger]

Leliana and the Warden potentially worked out so we'll have to work on that. Nice job with Female Warden and Alistair though.

DESTROY THE RELATIONSHIPS, DESTROY THEM ALL!

*cough*
*ahem*

Sorry, don't know what came over me.

[Atalanta]

David Gaider wrote...
Thank you for pointing out this issue. I wasn't aware there was that many relationships in the Dragon Age which could be perceived as happy and working out well. Clearly the writers slipped a few by me. I'll need to work on that, clearly.

Oh dear ...

[Dean_the_Young]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
...argument sides start to become competing teams and nobody wants to lose.

I liked the article, but disliked the frequent implication that the way Americans react to facts that contradict their political views is somehow a 'natural mental defense' as opposed to a culturally created behavior.

Meh. I've seen it with Europeans, Latin Americans, Canadians, and heard it of more than enough Arab and Central Asian instances that it's far from culture-specific.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Either I was unclear, or people are jumping on me out of paranoia. So allow me to clarify: I don't think that Bioware is doing this on purpose. Whether it's incompetence or not... well, it's a word Dean brought up originally; I'd prefer to use "somewhat thoughtless." It's something to watch yourself on, primarily.

It was a word I brought up and immediately disqualified, Xilizhra. Don't go placing an argument on someone that's contrary to their point to deflect off your own usage of the term as you did.

Whether any of said relationships fail because of their sexual preferences does not matter a damn, the problem is the pattern that exists in their failing to begin with.

Except your pattern is flawed because you ignore positive lesbian relationships and invent bad endings for other relationships.

Now, the whole Thessia relationship thing. I will concede that it's not a perfect example of the pattern, and that it may be representing something of a shift outward. If you can take that and then maybe use it in a way that doesn't imply that anyone is going to die horribly thereafter, you'll be completely fine. Progress has been made over time, which is good, but I would advise you to not become complacent.

And I'd advise you to not be paranoid.

[TheJediSaint]

David Gaider wrote...

Thank you for pointing out this issue. I wasn't aware there was that many relationships in the Dragon Age which could be perceived as happy and working out well. Clearly the writers slipped a few by me. I'll need to work on that, clearly.

I see the coffee maker needed a fresh refill of fan-tears.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 30 mars 2013 - 08:07 .

[Saibh]

Well, I think the most obvious counterpoint is there's basically no romances that end happily in BioWare games, period.

Honestly, it really seems the discussion should end there in regards to BioWare somehow directing this at lesbian relationships. 

Modifié par Saibh, 30 mars 2013 - 08:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

To be fair, ME3 had several of these sad romance stories: Ereba and Charr, the turian who tells his wife to go to Sanctuary with their two daughters...at least it's entirely possible that the asari daughter survives the reaper invasion on Thessia (Thessia falls near the end of the war, Earth was harvested much longer)...headcanon territory, I guess. But I agree, it would be nice to see a happy homosexual couple for a change.

Why are you qualified to tell their writers what to do? You know, the treachery and backstabbing in Game of Thrones offends me. Think I'll e-mail Martin and set that guy straight.

Judging by Allan's words, I'm guessing the intent is not to create an entire franchise based on lesbian couples being screwed over.

The franchises aren't based on lesbian couples being screwed over. First, lesbian couples aren't even a foundation for the franchises. Second, there are successful lesbian relationships in the franchises.

This is disingenuous of you Xil. Shape up.

[Face of Evil]

Saibh wrote...

Well, I think the most obvious counterpoint is there's basically no romances that end happily in BioWare games, period.

Honestly, it really seems the discussion should end there in regards to BioWare somehow directing this at lesbian relationships. 

On that, I have to agree.

In the Awakening expansion, you can't point to a single couple whose relationship doesn't end in tragedy, and those are all M/F pairings. Is Awakening saying that all straight romances are doomed?

Willowhugger wrote...

I'd love to see a happy homosexual couple on Dragon Age.

Also, I felt Branka and Felsi was in poor taste.

It's Branka and Hespith, not Branka and Felsi. Though Felsi's own relationship with Oghren ends badly.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 30 mars 2013 - 08:33 .

[Commander Kurt]

MissOuJ wrote..

... why would you be offended?

I'm serious, I can't for the life of me to understand why you (or anybody reading this thead) would be offended by the criticism in this thead. People are pointing out a trend, and explaining why it's problematic.

I can tell you why I'm starting to be offended on his behalf. Its because this "pattern" is completely manufactured to fit the op's point. This has later been acknowledged with the comment that "they're getting better" and yet people are still going on about the pattern. There is no bloody pattern! This discussion is so bloody dishonest, using different rules and definitions for every situation in order to find something to improve upon, that I'm starting to blow a fuse.

What you're doing in this thread is taking a really good thing that biowatre are doing and saying "not good enough" because of something you made up! How on earth is that NOT offensive!?

Dammit, I need to go lie down for a while...

Modifié par Commander Kurt, 30 mars 2013 - 09:06 .

[andy6915]

I agree with Kurt, and I've been saying similar things in the few posts I've made in here. Patters are being seen that aren't actually there, and there are no implications to speak of about said pattern. People are just making up a strawman complaint so they have something to whine about. That's how the BSN is, if there's nothing to complain about then people will just make up a complaint as a substitute.

[Neoleviathan]

 Wow, this topic sure took off. If there is a trend at work here, I think this whole thread has revealed it.

No mentions of KotOR & Juhani, have I missed them? 

Bioware has made some very good characters in its time, straight or otherwise. I feel the angst too, there are too few characters in fiction that seem sincere. And even some that do are poorly recieved. Anyone watched Stargate Universe remember all the fuss Wray brought to the show? Massive annoying ****** through the first season, played by Ming Na. I hated her too at first, but she ended up being one of my favorite characters. But man did people hate her for being gay, & they hated her for getting a whole episode focused solely on her relationship. The hate eclipsed any actual critisism you could have given the thing. Why, just becuase it was there. The OP's post reminds me of many of the threads that were around then on Gateworld & other places. I really hope Bioware and the fanbase wont have to deal with that.

[Jonata]

I'm sorry I am at work and I don't have the time to read all the 10 pages of this thread, but I would like to notice that the "tragic lesbian story" is a problem with every other piece of mainstream art as well.

There's an italian website of lesbian culture who called it the "buzzard effect" (referring to the buzzard flying in the tragic ending of Lost & Delirious): every time someone approaches lesbian romance drives it straight to tragic drama. This is common with every homosexual storyline (perhaps as a sign of some kind of exploitation) but with women it's almost unbearable.

I don't know what's behind this attitude or why BioWare failed to see that they were heading in that direction too, but David Gaider is a very, very self-aware writer so I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see a nice lesbian story (even in the background) without a tragic ending in further games.

PS: at least, that woman in ME3 managed to save her daughter from her family!

[Il Divo]

Neoleviathan wrote...

No mentions of KotOR & Juhani, have I missed them? 

Now this brings back memories! Kinda getting tempted to bust out KotOR all over again.

[Heimdall]

Jonata wrote...

I'm sorry I am at work and I don't have the time to read all the 10 pages of this thread, but I would like to notice that the "tragic lesbian story" is a problem with every other piece of mainstream art as well.

There's an italian website of lesbian culture who called it the "buzzard effect" (referring to the buzzard flying in the tragic ending of Lost & Delirious): every time someone approaches lesbian romance drives it straight to tragic drama. This is common with every homosexual storyline (perhaps as a sign of some kind of exploitation) but with women it's almost unbearable.

I don't know what's behind this attitude or why BioWare failed to see that they were heading in that direction too, but David Gaider is a very, very self-aware writer so I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see a nice lesbian story (even in the background) without a tragic ending in further games.

PS: at least, that woman in ME3 managed to save her daughter from her family!

I think its worth noting that every romance Mr.Gaider writes ends in tragedy.  Lesbian or otherwise.

[Blackrising]

Jonata wrote...

I'm sorry I am at work and I don't have the time to read all the 10 pages of this thread, but I would like to notice that the "tragic lesbian story" is a problem with every other piece of mainstream art as well.

There's an italian website of lesbian culture who called it the "buzzard effect" (referring to the buzzard flying in the tragic ending of Lost & Delirious): every time someone approaches lesbian romance drives it straight to tragic drama. This is common with every homosexual storyline (perhaps as a sign of some kind of exploitation) but with women it's almost unbearable.

I don't know what's behind this attitude or why BioWare failed to see that they were heading in that direction too, but David Gaider is a very, very self-aware writer so I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see a nice lesbian story (even in the background) without a tragic ending in further games.

PS: at least, that woman in ME3 managed to save her daughter from her family!

Oh you just had to remind me of that, didn't you?
First lesbian movie I ever watched and it made me sob hysterically for days.

[Jonata]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I think its worth noting that every romance Mr.Gaider writes ends in tragedy.  Lesbian or otherwise.

That's a good point since I love Gaider's tendence to tragedy. Perhaps some happy BG romance could help breaks the trend without damaging the lovely "tragic romances" Gaider usually writes? 

Blackrising wrote...
Oh you just had to remind me of that, didn't you?
First lesbian movie I ever watched and it made me sob hysterically for days.

I saw it when I was 16 IIRC... it was the first time the ending of a movie really made me go all "Why?!?" about it. 

Modifié par Jonata, 30 mars 2013 - 11:36 .

[Chaos Lord Malek]

David Gaider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
What is with this pattern, Bioware? It seems to be consistently committed by different people, so I don't know if it's an issue with a single writer... is it some kind of corporate culture issue? An addiction to certain tropes? Because while there are certainly plenty of straight relationships that have the same issues, there are also those that work out basically fine, and even one gay male one that seems to be going well (Wade/Herren). So again, I must ask; what is the reason for this pattern?

Thank you for pointing out this issue. I wasn't aware there was that many relationships in the Dragon Age which could be perceived as happy and working out well. Clearly the writers slipped a few by me. I'll need to work on that, clearly.

Make it GRIMDARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Barquiel]

If we count the relationships with your own characters...the Silk Fox romance in Jade Empire has a happy end. Nobody dies, or disappears in the epilogue.

[MissOuJ]

Commander Kurt wrote...

MissOuJ wrote..

... why would you be offended?

I'm serious, I can't for the life of me to understand why you (or anybody reading this thead) would be offended by the criticism in this thead. People are pointing out a trend, and explaining why it's problematic.

I can tell you why I'm starting to be offended on his behalf. Its because this "pattern" is completely manufactured to fit the op's point. This has later been acknowledged with the comment that "they're getting better" and yet people are still going on about the pattern. There is no bloody pattern! This discussion is so bloody dishonest, using different rules and definitions for every situation in order to find something to improve upon, that I'm starting to blow a fuse.

What you're doing in this thread is taking a really good thing that biowatre are doing and saying "not good enough" because of something you made up! How on earth is that NOT offensive!?

Dammit, I need to go lie down for a while...

...Except that it's not. I can't name a single NPC lesbian relationship that doesn't end badly, or isn't defined by negative connotations (which is why I feel the mother in the Asari embassy counts: the relationship isn't defined by their love, but by her family's xenophobia [which resembles strongly the homophobia some LGBT youth face when they come out to their parents and family, and not all LGBT people want to be reminded of that] and what seems to be her daughter's imminent death) - I can name one gay relationship and a couple straight relationships, so it's not like happy ends/non-depressing ends are completely unheard of. So clearly there is a pattern - I doubt it's there on purpose, but it's still there nonetheless - and people are pointing out it's problematic.

I mean, we can't (or at least I can't) find a simple example of NPC female SS relationship that doesn't end badly - I'm glad the relationships exist (which is, again, more than most gaming companies do) but that doesn't mean we should stop asking for improvements if and when we find problematic tropes.

Also, if you check the OP, the context of this post is also "There seems to be a female SS relationship portrayed in the next DA novel, and in the past portrayals of female SS relationships have fallen into a trope that is problematic, so please be aware of this and its unfortunate implications".

I doubt any of us who agree with the OP are there posting because we hate BioWare or the writers and want to make them feel bad about not recognizing this pattern. I myself was unaware of this pattern before the OP posted this thead - probably because I'm a straight woman myself, and even thought I try to keep an open mind, this seems to be an issue I didn't pay attention to - unlike a L/B gamer, who (and I'm speculating here, since I'm straight) might have thoughts similar to:

"Cool, now I (if they're pursuing a SS romance) feel like I'm not the only lesbian/bisexual woman in this universe, and there is canonical proof! Thanks! ... Umm... these relationships don't seem to work out so well. Where have I seen this before... Oh, right: in all forms of media ever."



I'd imagine it's similar to when I'm playing a game and go "Cool, now I (if I'm playing a female character) feel like I'm not the only woman in the universe, and there's canonical proof there're other women in this army! Thanks! ... Umm... all these women seem to have chainmail bikini and they keep getting kidnapped a lot. Where have I seen this before... Oh right: in all forms of media ever."



And I'd like to point out that just a couple positive examples can flip the balance: I don't mind Isabela's outfit, because one, it is part of her well-established character, and two, because most other female rogues/warriors wear sensible armour. She's the exception, which makes her stand out as a character and highlights her personality.

Point is: not noticing something isn't really a problem. We all have different points of view, and like Allan himself said, we like to keep to stuff that's familiar. That's fine. But I also think Xilizhra has a right to talk about this without getting smart*** joketheads made of her post (and thank you for locking that one, Allan) and without people getting defensive. LGBT issues have not, in the past, had the best representation in gaming - or any media, really - and I think any and all improvement suggestions and constructive criticism should be at least acknowledged. I truly think that, as long as noone can name a female SS NPC relationship that didn't end badly, Xilizhra really does have a point.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 30 mars 2013 - 11:51 .

[SilentK]

I find it a little strange to not look at the relationships between the PC + LI when it comes to f/f-relationships. I have played several off them and found them really great.

Especially since Patrik Weekes put so much work into making the f/f-relationshp between FemShep and Traynor a positive experience.


The following comes from the BioWare blog.

How did you approach writing a gay character in Mass Effect 3?

PW: Liara’s relationship in Lair of the Shadow Broker can be with players of either gender, so I was familiar with writing dialog that needed to work for a same-sex romance. Nevertheless, I’m a straight white male – pretty much the living embodiment of the Patriarchy – and I really wanted to avoid writing something that people saw and went, “That’s a straight guy writing lesbians for other straight guys to look at.”I also really wanted the romance with Traynor to be positive. One of my gay friends has this kind of sad hobby in which she watches every lesbian movie she can find, trying to find ones that actually end up with the women not either dying or breaking up. I think the most positive one she’s found is “D.E.B.S.” I wanted to avoid any kind of tragic heartbreak, to make this a fundamentally life-affirming relationship… at least, as much as possible within Mass Effect 3′s grim war story.

PW: I worked hard to create a character who addressed her lesbian identity in a positive and intelligent way. My first draft of Traynor’s pitch was all about how her character arc would be about identifying and overcoming the challenges of being gay… and my friends and managers called me on it. I’d been so focused on writing something
positive that I hadn’t made a real-enough character. So in the next draft (closer to how she shipped), the focus was on her as a mostly lighthearted fish out of water, a very smart lab tech trying to adjust to life on the front lines, with her identity as a lesbian present but not shouted from the rooftops.

PW: Yeah. If I’ve done my job right, I’ve made Traynor a character that people in the LGBT community will like not because we happened to put a gay character in the game, but because she’s a great character even if you never romance her.

How do you feel your relationship turned out?

PW: I’m fortunate to have gay and lesbian friends at BioWare who were willing to take a look at Traynor for me and help me edit a few bad lines that played into negative stereotypes. As for the fans, the reaction has been very positive so far – I think the nicest thing I’ve heard was, “I think I’ve actually had that conversation in real life.”
The largest concern I’ve heard in feedback about Traynor is that people want more conversations with her – which I think holds true for just about every romance in the game.

Same-Sex Relationshps in Mass Effect: BioWare blog

(Patrik Weekes and Dusty Everman)

Modifié par SilentK, 30 mars 2013 - 12:08 .

[LobselVith8]

MissOuJ wrote...

... why would you be offended?

I'm serious, I can't for the life of me to understand why you (or anybody reading this thead) would be offended by the criticism in this thead. People are pointing out a trend, and explaining why it's problematic. I haven't read a single post stating that BW has some company-wide homophobic agenda, which is geared to show only unhappy female SS relationships, or anything of that nature.

I have gay friends, and I have said stuff in the past that has made them uncomfortable. When they confronted me with the things I'd said, I didn't go " Well, now I'm offended that you are implying I am homophobic, even thought I hang out with you guys!" I said "I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was making you uncomfortable. I won't be doing that again."

Acknowledging your social biases and priviledges means that at some point, when we screw up (because we most certainly do) and a member of a minority points it out to us, we should listen to their grievances and try to do better next time. This is not about how we feel, this is about how the stuff we do makes them feel.

I can see this thead bringing out a lot of emotions, but I honestly can't see how anyone working for BW would be offended by this thead. Plus, we only criticize because we love you, and want you to do even better.

That was a really great post. Thank you for sharing your input.