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Saibh wrote...
Well, I think the most obvious counterpoint is there's basically no romances that end happily in BioWare games, period.
Honestly, it really seems the discussion should end there in regards to BioWare somehow directing this at lesbian relationships.
andy69156915 wrote...
I actually do have an example of a lesbian couple in a Bioware game not having anything bad happen to it. It's a stretch... But I only need 1 single example to prove this "pattern" wrong. Khalisah al-Jilani (punchable reporter) is shown to be in a relationship with an Asari in the Shadow Broker footage. Far as I know, nothing is shown to break them up or anything bad happen to them even by the end of ME3.
So there's your example. You can try to throw it out because it's a minor character, but that would be moving the goalpost and would prove that you really are just trying to complain for the sake of complaining.
Allan Schumacher wrote...
This claim is perfectly fine and completely valid, and doesn't even need any sort of mental gymnastics to justify an absolute perspective that it never happens (since that just opens you up to scrutiny and obfuscates the thread). Whether it never happens or just rarely happens, ask for it because you want it and feel it's important. Going onto tangents such as how you're frustrated because you had to wait as long as ME3 for it to happen at all, and how it was still pretty crappy, turns the topic into something more adversarial than it needs to be, and argument sides start to become competing teams and nobody wants to lose.
andy69156915 wrote...
I actually do have an example of a lesbian couple in a Bioware game not having anything bad happen to it. It's a stretch... But I only need 1 single example to prove this "pattern" wrong. Khalisah al-Jilani (punchable reporter) is shown to be in a relationship with an Asari in the Shadow Broker footage. Far as I know, nothing is shown to break them up or anything bad happen to them even by the end of ME3.
So there's your example. You can try to throw it out because it's a minor character, but that would be moving the goalpost and would prove that you really are just trying to complain for the sake of complaining.
Modifié par MissOuJ, 30 mars 2013 - 12:21 .
kumquats wrote...
Donnic and Aveline hook up Quest is one of my favourites in DA2 and I'm always happy to see Garrus and Tali being a couple in ME3, most of the time I even help EDI and Joker, but that couple annoys me a little bit....
Anyway.
I'm sure BW can include maybe in DA3 a gay couple for us. I love to play matchmaker. xD
Those Quests are always nice, besides the kill 20 Orcs so I give you a magic Sword kind of Quests.
If you'll insist on this counting, I'll redo my statement to make it only apply to Dragon Age, where it remains true. And perhaps a more valid concern for DA writers; at least ME seems to have left the rather horrible example of ME2 behind... sort of.andy69156915 wrote...
I sat at my computer for a good 5 minutes, racking my memory, for me to remember that. It's not a strong point, it's not a major character or scene or even conversation... But it's enough to disprove the claim about this pattern. That's what happens when you make an absolute claim like "not a SINGLE lesbian relationship ever ends well in Bioware games", because it only takes a single example to break the entire claim.
What the hell are you talking about? I conceded your ME point, even though the counterexample was on the shallow and poor side, because it technically still is a counterexample. It's just not the case for both franchises.andy69156915 wrote...
Annnnnd... Goalpost moved. Specifically to "well it's still true for Dragon Age!".
Typical and expected.
Xilizhra wrote...
I also do not believe it's invalid to say that things have improved, but could improve more.
David Gaider wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
What is with this pattern, Bioware? It seems to be consistently committed by different people, so I don't know if it's an issue with a single writer... is it some kind of corporate culture issue? An addiction to certain tropes? Because while there are certainly plenty of straight relationships that have the same issues, there are also those that work out basically fine, and even one gay male one that seems to be going well (Wade/Herren). So again, I must ask; what is the reason for this pattern?
Thank you for pointing out this issue. I wasn't aware there was that many relationships in the Dragon Age which could be perceived as happy and working out well. Clearly the writers slipped a few by me. I'll need to work on that, clearly.
Okay so if it only applies to Dragon Age looking at the OP that leaves Leliana/Marjolaine and Branka/Hespith in DAO with the possibility of Celene/Briala in Masked Empire.Xilizhra wrote...
If you'll insist on this counting, I'll redo my statement to make it only apply to Dragon Age, where it remains true. And perhaps a more valid concern for DA writers; at least ME seems to have left the rather horrible example of ME2 behind... sort of.andy69156915 wrote...
I sat at my computer for a good 5 minutes, racking my memory, for me to remember that. It's not a strong point, it's not a major character or scene or even conversation... But it's enough to disprove the claim about this pattern. That's what happens when you make an absolute claim like "not a SINGLE lesbian relationship ever ends well in Bioware games", because it only takes a single example to break the entire claim.
I also do not believe it's invalid to say that things have improved, but could improve more.
Mass Effect still has issues even if they're not quite universal, remember. And not having anything beyond four (you missed the Dorothea/Marjolaine thing) may not be entirely encouraging when all of them have gone badly. In any case, as I mentioned, it's an easy issue to fix.aTrueFool wrote...
Okay so if it only applies to Dragon Age looking at the OP that leaves Leliana/Marjolaine and Branka/Hespith in DAO with the possibility of Celene/Briala in Masked Empire.Xilizhra wrote...
If you'll insist on this counting, I'll redo my statement to make it only apply to Dragon Age, where it remains true. And perhaps a more valid concern for DA writers; at least ME seems to have left the rather horrible example of ME2 behind... sort of.andy69156915 wrote...
I sat at my computer for a good 5 minutes, racking my memory, for me to remember that. It's not a strong point, it's not a major character or scene or even conversation... But it's enough to disprove the claim about this pattern. That's what happens when you make an absolute claim like "not a SINGLE lesbian relationship ever ends well in Bioware games", because it only takes a single example to break the entire claim.
I also do not believe it's invalid to say that things have improved, but could improve more.
I don't know if 2 (possibility 3) instances can make a trend, disturbing or otherwise, when spread over 2 games, 1 expansion, 4 books and 19 issues of comics (so far).
MissOuJ wrote...
I mean, we can't (or at least I can't) find a simple example of NPC female SS relationship that doesn't end badly - I'm glad the relationships exist (which is, again, more than most gaming companies do) but that doesn't mean we should stop asking for improvements if and when we find problematic tropes.
My standards here are "not breaking up" and "not having someone be horribly killed." Drama that doesn't contradict those is fine.I think you would find a lot less resistance if the definition of "happy" female SS relationship didn't mean eternally toghether without absolutely any external drama or otherwise any kind of pressure, complication, or otherwise negative content.
Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 mars 2013 - 02:29 .
Jayne126 wrote...
And where are all the pigeons?! I never saw any pigeons!
Could that mean they secretly hate them? Or promote hate against them? They've hearts too!
Modifié par Aolbain, 30 mars 2013 - 03:22 .
David Gaider wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
What is with this pattern, Bioware? It seems to be consistently committed by different people, so I don't know if it's an issue with a single writer... is it some kind of corporate culture issue? An addiction to certain tropes? Because while there are certainly plenty of straight relationships that have the same issues, there are also those that work out basically fine, and even one gay male one that seems to be going well (Wade/Herren). So again, I must ask; what is the reason for this pattern?
Thank you for pointing out this issue. I wasn't aware there was that many relationships in the Dragon Age which could be perceived as happy and working out well. Clearly the writers slipped a few by me. I'll need to work on that, clearly.
:lol::lol:
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