490 réponses à ce sujet

[WoolyJoe]

Whilst I agree that all of the OP's given examples are indeed tragic, I take issue with their use of the term 'lesbian relationships' in that it suggests or provides a slightly narrowed perspective.

I have played through all of the games so far featured in both the Dragon Age and Mass Effect series, and upon encountering the above examples - Benezia and Aethyta; Branka and Hespith; Morinth and Nef; etc. - the fact that they were same sex pairings never really crossed my mind. At least not to the extent in which I differentiated them from any other character/s because they were 'gay', let alone in a lesbian relationship. I only ever really focused on whoever they were and whatever it was they were doing.

I've found one of the most admirable aspects of BioWare's writing to be the humanist approach they take in regards to their characters: They avoid dwelling upon an individual's sexuality, whilst simultaneously refraining from writing about anyone's sexual preference flippantly. From Juhani, to Sky, to Traynor, an individual is never defined by whomever it is that they fall in love with, but by their actions. And I believe that can only be a good thing.

[Atalanta]

David Gaider wrote...
It's not unreasonable to ask, but I think it's also not unreasonable for us to say "no" in this case. I believe my obligation extends to making these characters human, not to making them happy or even making them positive examples of anything.

Considering the original point had to be stretched pretty thinly in order to connect the dots as she wished, the ultimate point that ends up being made is a rather thin one. I'm not really convinced there's a pattern of targeting lesbian relationships as unhappy over the course of Dragon Age-- one would probably get better mileage saying "I'd like to see more happy relationships at all", which I would still glance sideways at because I think happy is boring but I at least could understand where someone was coming from on that front.

I'm a bit confused with your response, because I didn't think that I was implying that you or any of the writers have an obligation to do anything. I was sort of aiming to just share my perspective and what I'd like to see.

Also HI DAVID I AM A BIG FAN. :happy:

[Xilizhra]

David Gaider wrote...

Atalanta wrote...
Aveline and Donnic finding each other was also fantastic, and I don't think that it's unreasonable to ask that gays and lesbians also have a positive example or two to take away with them after they finish a game. I think it's difficult for non-LGBTs to wrap their minds around just how little there is written with us in mind in media, and how big of a difference positive protrayals in fiction can make. The desire to not be excluded is the major reason these kinds of threads are common - not to attack the developers or to make people feel uncomfortable.

It's not unreasonable to ask, but I think it's also not unreasonable for us to say "no" in this case. I believe my obligation extends to making these characters human, not to making them happy or even making them positive examples of anything.

Considering the original point had to be stretched pretty thinly in order to connect the dots as she wished, the ultimate point that ends up being made is a rather thin one. I'm not really convinced there's a pattern of targeting lesbian relationships as unhappy over the course of Dragon Age-- one would probably get better mileage saying "I'd like to see more happy relationships at all", which I would still glance sideways at because I think happy is boring but I at least could understand where someone was coming from on that front.

You have no obligations whatsoever aside from making the company money; it's not really about that, so much as what I believe would be best to see, both for me and perhaps for others, none of whom I can think would actually be harmed by seeing more examples of positive relationships. And no, happy does not equal boring; it's completely possible to be both happy and interesting, as previously shown.

[andy6915]

Forget hetero, some people are complaining about this being an LGBT issue. On that end, I'll be including gay couples too. Note that these examples assume you made the right choices to get them together if you can affect it.

Haren-Wade

Bhelen-Rika

Donnic-Aveline

Cammen-Gheyna

Gorim-unnamed wife

Eamon-Isolde

...That's all the happy couples I can think of right now.

Modifié par andy69156915, 30 mars 2013 - 08:41 .

[andy6915]

Screw you and your Qun!

...I wish I could make Hawke say that to the Arishok at one point.

Anyway, I made that list because I wanted to make a point that there aren't many happy couples in DA PERIOD. I could make a list 5 times as long as that for unhappy couples in the series. That's why I say this pattern is BS, because there's so many negative ones anyway. Seriously, I could only come up with 6 for the ENTIRE SERIES. And the topic creator wants to pretend that the 4 or 5 lesbian couples in the series not having a happy conclusion makes a pattern? Especially when the number of straight couples that have things go wrong is far FAR higher then the number of gay couples that have things go wrong? Bollocks.

[Commander Kurt]

andy69156915 wrote...

Forget hetero, some people are complaining about this being an LGBT issue. On that end, I'll be including gay couples too. Note that these examples assume you made the right choices to get them together if you can affect it.

Haren-Wade

Bhelen-Rika

Donnic-Aveline

Cammen-Gheyna

Gorim-unnamed wife

Eamon-Isolde

...That's all the happy couples I can think of right now.

Only two of them follow the prerequisites of the theory. In order to leave out the PC romances (some of which are lesbian and happy), it was determined that examples only count when the relationship is inherent to the world. They are always there, and happy, no matter what the player does.

Bhelen can die. Aveline can remain single. Cammen can remain single. Isolde can die. That leaves us with two happy relationships so far, one of which is gay. Is this indicative of a trend yet?

[andy6915]

I didn't realize that the topic creator had narrowed the rules so much to try to fit the hypothesis about the "pattern". So then, yeah... 2 so far, 1 gay, as ordained by the rules of examples. Still not BS yet?

[Overdosing]

Yea, my vantage point would be, like in this case, that the excess of lesbian relationships going wrong is not subtle. But them at least being on there is okay. Don't flame me with horrid comments of anything, but like straight relationships, homosexual relationships (whether you're a boy or a girl) have issues and trouble as well.

But if they really are doing this with the Masked Empire....I don't know. I'd have to check it out.

[Medhia Nox]

I agree - all lesbian relationships should end in bed death instead.

[Lamepro]

I am guessing people were not happy about Branka and Hespith storyline?

[Commander Kurt]

andy69156915 wrote...

Screw you and your Qun!

...I wish I could make Hawke say that to the Arishok at one point.

Anyway, I made that list because I wanted to make a point that there aren't many happy couples in DA PERIOD. I could make a list 5 times as long as that for unhappy couples in the series. That's why I say this pattern is BS, because there's so many negative ones anyway. Seriously, I could only come up with 6 for the ENTIRE SERIES. And the topic creator wants to pretend that the 4 or 5 lesbian couples in the series not having a happy conclusion makes a pattern? Especially when the number of straight couples that have things go wrong is far FAR higher then the number of gay couples that have things go wrong? Bollocks.

I could understand the issue if the claims were true. Even if only a few other relationships were sunshine and rainbows, it would be a trend and a pattern that may be unfortunate if no lesbian relationships at all were happy. However, in DA/ME this pattern/trend is only visible if you make a number of arbitrary assumptions/rules disqualifying the happy lesbian relationships that are actually there. Any eventual happy heterosexual relationship must therefor be subjected to the same assumptions/rules in order for the argument to be valid.

I also must admit to being at a loss when it comes to the inclusion of gender in the discussion. Heterosexual isn't pitted against homosexual, but specifically lesbian. I understand the pitfalls of mixing lesbians and gays in the statistics, but in this small a sample you can't possibly hope to find a trend if your search is too specific. Adding stuff like ethnicity, gender, age, religion and such to sexuality will almost certainly result in no instances at all matching your prerequisites.

TL, DR; This trend is a fabrication.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
My standards here are "not breaking up" and "not having someone be horribly killed." Drama that doesn't contradict those is fine.

But that's the problem, I think. I just do not see these as one dimension.

I think you can break up, and you can lose someone in an absolutely terrible way, without that making your relationship "unhappy". 

ETA:

To clarify, again, I would agree with your initial sentiment: we need more positive S/S relationships in DA:O, and more background S/S relationships in general. Ideally, with a wider variety along the gender norm spectrum. 

I just think your happy end criteria are too stringent, even for IRL. 

And Wesley's death happened long before Donnic ever entered the picture. Aveline/Wesley would not qualify for my standards, to be sure, but Aveline/Donnic definitely does. 

Unless you kill Aveline at the endgame, right? 

Modifié par In Exile, 30 mars 2013 - 10:22 .

[Topsider]

Is there anything that people won't complain about? There was a time when games were played for enjoyment, now it's about nitpicking them to death on forums. I hope nobody comes to BSN to wind down after a hard day's work, they will leave depressed and crave large amounts of alcohol. Negativity is contagious.

[In Exile]

andy69156915 wrote...
Eamon-Isolde

I'm willing to put down a fair bit of money Isolde was cheating on him with Teagan. 

[legbamel]

In Exile wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...
Eamon-Isolde

I'm willing to put down a fair bit of money Isolde was cheating on him with Teagan.

Whether she was or wasn't, she certainly acted like she wanted to.  Never a more jealous NPC have I seen than Isolde when your female Warden walks up outside the mill.  Considering that Eamon's on his death bed at that point, if you don't save him, not to mention her deceipts surrounding their son and Jowan, I don't think I'd be listing that one in the "positive" category.  <_<

[Wulfram]

In Exile wrote...

Unless you kill Aveline at the endgame, right? 

Have you killed Aveline?  I'm under the impression it's impossible.

[karushna5]

I believe that Bioware has been treated unfairly. Always you can misconstrue something into a bad misconception or cruel intent. The problem is, that drama breeds good stories. If every lesbian relationship is like Branka / Hespith than I think the OP might have a point, but by pointing out all the cases that it isn't so she undermines her point.

You can't bully developers to make your story, not with insults or abuse. It isn't kind, and it is incredibly closed minded. They have a right to show their story as they want as long as they are not cruel about it. Reading cruel intent behind not having it exactly your way...is shutting your mind to anything but your own biased opinion.

This whole thing is partly offset by the fact you can HAVE a happy lesbian romance with 3 characters in DA and I know in future ones as well. It may not exactly be to your liking, but reading malice behind it is not very mature or fair.

So much media does not recognize any gay characters. That to be able to see that make an appearance at all as human people is a remarkable achievement. Cortez and Traynor in Mass Effect were a huge step forward in media as a whole.

When we are given something they pioneered with and are trying incredibly well to give us an inclusive game...we complain. The rest of the media won't touch the issue at hand if including people as being part of the plots makes us complain.

How anyone could say they are selfish or malicious in their intent boggles me, because many fans don't think them for trying but they must try more, and others see them including it at all being horrible. I am touched they even think of us. That they try to include dramatic stories that speak to us.
Love, whether good or bad, is considered part of who we are. Most great love stories are tragedies, across cultures that seems to happen fairly often.

That they show that love as a serious, loving, and sometimes sad thing is beautiful endeavor and they manage to make it work. Mass effect they created a future where sexuality isn't really a problem anymore, that we joined together to get past bigotry.

In a video game.

I repeat, in a video game, where the gaming community has more gender and sexuality predjudice than in many other entertainment communities. They manage to make it a better world just a bit because, and this is the important part...because they care.

they care about inclusivity, and sexual equality, and even if they get flack, from a very heterosexual gaming community, to the groups they want to include, they keep doing it. They didn't do it just for the money, most games don't include anything or much less than they have and made plenty. They do it because it is right.

Thank you, Bioware, for doing what is right despite the difficulties, it means a lot to me, and many others. And just a little bit you are helping others get over prejudice and the bile we hear so often everyday. You don't get thanked enough, so Thank You for being decent people

[killswitch423]

You know what? I think I just realized something.

I never noticed this pattern before. Why? Not because I wasn't paying attention, as I know of every relationship mentioned; rather I believe myself and many others simply don't see the lesbian or gay relationships as anything different than straight ones. It's just not how I think because I, like more and more people today (especially those of us who enjoy Bioware RPGs in the first place), have accepted the LGBT community as not so much the "LGBT community" and just... part of us. Those of us who already think positively aren't even going to consider the issue. Therefore, you shouldn't actually have anything to worry about how your orientation is being unintentionally presented.

If your concern is that people are somehow going to think that L relationships are negative because of this 'pattern,' then I would say that anyone who already disapproves of LBGT isn't going to care whether the relationships are presented positively or not; a game isn't going to change their mind. And if anyone is using minor side characters from a video game as a moral compass then I'd say that they have their own issues to work out that have nothing to do with Bioware.

Maybe it's just because of the generation I'm a part of (born in 91) but it seems to me like sometimes those in minorities are constantly on the lookout for any little thing that might damage their image (as a Wiccan myself I know how it feels to see something about you presented negatively eg. pentacles and magick). This is unfortunate and the outliers of our society are to blame, but sometimes we just have to stop worrying so much and realize that things are getting better across the board and to give it time.

Now I'm rambling a bit and I hope I haven't offended anybody. This isn't really directed at OP or the others who are making the humble request but more the issue as a whole I guess... I don't know. Disregard this post if none of it makes sense because I'm not sure I've even gotten across my main point.

And I still stand by the idea of more positive relationship outcomes across the board

[Monica21]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but why are Branka and Hespith being brought up as an example? Yeah, they're an example of a tragic couple, but Branka and Oghren are also tragic. Oghren spent years trying to get into the Deep Roads to find her, refusing to believe that she was dead even though everyone else did. Then your Warden comes along and heads in, only to find out that Branka and Hespith were in a relationship. A case can easily be made that Branka/Hespith was more tragic, but I guess my point is that the one commonality in the two relationships was Branka. Who was crazy. It's no reflection on lesbian vs. hetero relationships, but rather the people involved.

[Ianamus]

Now that the OP had brought it up I do see a problem. As many, many others have said, I don't think Bioware plans to do this, but It is unfortunate that I cannot think of any non-PC/LI s/s female relationships in their games that are successful. In fact the first ones that come to mind are some of the most repulsive emotional relationships in their games (Branka/Hespith and Morinth/Nef). Again, I'm sure this is not intentional, It's just that those are the first that come to mind.

The problem is that this is a trend that is present not just in video games but within all media in general, and I do agree with the OP that It does appear to be an issue here as well. I don't know if there was a relationship between female background NPC's in ME3 that was positive, because I don't remember any dialogue about the one people are talking about. And that in itself isn't a good sign, as while I can't remember hearing about that one at all there are lot of successful m/f NPC relationships from their games that I can remember.

Yes a lot of them have to be instigated by the PC or can be ended/ruined by the PC, but It's important to note that there are no s/s female relationships that can be instigated or affected by the PC, so overall there is a prevailing impression in hindsight that s/s female NPC relationships in Bioware games are more negative or unsuccessful. Not that Bioware have done anything "wrong", or that there is a problem with the relationships they have already written, we just need more variety. 

All I can say is I hope we will see a positive example in the future (hopefully with DA:I, but If not then at least at some point).

Modifié par EJ107, 30 mars 2013 - 11:41 .

[Atalanta]

karushna5 wrote...
How anyone could say they are selfish or malicious in their intent boggles me, because many fans don't think them for trying but they must try more, and others see them including it at all being horrible.

Are we reading the same thread? Who has said anything like that here? 

[Battlebloodmage]

Is Nyreen and Aria actually dating though? Maybe I missed something while playing through Omega.

[sandalisthemaker]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Is Nyreen and Aria actually dating though? Maybe I missed something while playing through Omega.

I think they were ex-girlfriends

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 30 mars 2013 - 11:54 .

[K_Tabris]

Dragon Age seems to have a LOT of tragic relationships, regardless of sexual orientation: Oghren+Branka, Oghren+Felsi Loghain+Rowan, Rhys+Evangeline, Nicolas and Julien, etc.