490 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

I said the pattern was nonexistent and the premise flawed. But I never said that there should not be more gay NPCs, or more gay relationships that stay on the good end of things... It was only the former I argued, not the latter.

Also, I'm impressed you did come back. I probably wouldn't have if this was my thread. You got a quad.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...

I noticed that the background lesbian relationships tended to be disproportionately tragic than hetero and gay ones even before the OP created this thread, so I'm not over-impressed with the argument that she's stretching canon or creating problems that don't exist. Just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it isn't there.

It's true that background lesbian relationships in DA:O/DA2 have failed to show a spectrum. Bioware absolutely should improve. I think, again, where the issue comes up in this thread is in the tailoring: it started with being about all recent Bioware products (DA/ME), and then a stringent wall was set up to exclude potentially well-adjusted ME background F/F relationships (because they weren't appropriately happy) and PC relationships in both games. 

Looking at ME in particular, while Bioware certainly hit (untentionally) a landmine with Morinth/Neff, the degree of care and effort they put into Traynor/F!Shepard  is certainly a standout. But, at the same time, PC relationships don't count by the standard in the thread. And so there you see fan resistance. 

I think that the reason that you see a defensive response, effectively, is that people feel that those relationships do show a bona fide attempt by Bioware to put forward a spectrum re: the presentation of F/F relationships in-game. 

Yet, every background lesbian relationship that we've seen in Thedas so far have ended with one heinous witch turning on her lover (Branka to Hespith, Marjolaine to Leliana), whereas many hetero and even gay background relationships have partners treating each other rather decently (even if external forces drive them apart), and some relationships have been rather decent on the whole.

You mean, the two background F/F relationships in the entire series? Which I happen to think is the problem: Bioware chose to make two very significant and plot/character relevant background relationships S/S, and particularly F/F. The question is counterbalance: how does Bio make sure that the portrayal of F/F relationships is positive?

It seems obvious that in DA:O the positive F/F relationship was Leliana/F! Warden. But then the response is that it was not a background relationship. 

EVERY lesbian relationship we've seen in Thedas ends in such tragedy whereas not every hetero and gay relationship does indicates an uneven--if unintentional--portrayal.

But that's just misleading. We've seen a grand total of two plot-significant lesbian relationships in a game from 2009, that we're treated in a way where it so happened that there was a lesbian relationship invovled but the actual issue wasn't about the character not being hetereosexual in the least. Which is the kind of progressive content re: F/F relationships a progressive game should have. 

Yes, the two plot-significant F/F relationships in DA:O that we've seen end in tragedy. But the PC's lesbian relationship could very well be wonderful, and range across a rather diverse norm. 

This can easily be fixed though with one or two mild background same-sex female relationships (I'm not even saying perfectly happy, just not horribly tragic or corrupt) to counter-balance the uniformly tragic ones, but hey. Healthy relationships are boring. That's why we should have only more tragic relationships everywhere; because adding yet more miserable relationships is oh so new and intriguing. Haven't seen them yet.

Do you really think that the impact of Marjolane/Leliana or Branka/Hespith would be balanced out by swapping Wade/Herren's gender in DA:O? Because I don't think so, if you're honestly right about Bioware's portrayal of background lesbian relationships. 

Modifié par In Exile, 31 mars 2013 - 06:16 .

[slimgrin]

andy69156915 wrote...
However, I can agree with the overall point that more gay relationships in general need to happen among NPCs in this series.

They need to happen...really? Why is that? To balance out some imaginary scale of justice? Will the social progressives with their agendas and quotas arrest Bioware for not being inclusive enough?

[In Exile]

slimgrin wrote...
They need to happen...really? Why is that? To balance out some imaginary scale of justice? Will the social progressives with their agendas and quotas arrest Bioware for not being inclusive enough?

At this point, I want them to be there just to rake your coals. 

[andy6915]

Yeah, they need to happen. Gays are at least 10% of the population, so they realistically should be more numerous then they have been in Dragon Age so far.

[Allan Schumacher]

They need to happen...really? Why is that? To balance out some imaginary
scale of justice? Will the social progressives with their agendas and
quotas arrest Bioware for not being inclusive enough?

Presumably because he feels its important and something worthwhile for the industry (at least in the short term), as opposed to any inclusive-boogey men chasing us down.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mars 2013 - 06:19 .

[Xilizhra]

Do you really think that the impact of Marjolane/Leliana or Branka/Hespith would be balanced out by swapping Wade/Herren's gender in DA:O? Because I don't think so, if you're honestly right about Bioware's portrayal of background lesbian relationships.

Actually, I'll agree with you on that one because Wade and Herren were the only decent gay male couple in the series, so it'd be unfair for me to try to snatch that. But I suspect that wasn't what she meant, rather just seeing one that happened to be like them.

[slimgrin]

In Exile wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
They need to happen...really? Why is that? To balance out some imaginary scale of justice? Will the social progressives with their agendas and quotas arrest Bioware for not being inclusive enough?

At this point, I want them to be there just to rake your coals. 

They are there. My coals weren't raked, sorry to disappoint. But this thread is something else:

"Let's all tell the writers what themes to cover and how to cover them". Hilarious.

[MissOuJ]

Commander Kurt wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

I can name one gay relationship and a couple straight relationships, so it's not like happy ends/non-depressing ends are completely unheard of.

Fine, you know what? Tell me about them. Give me a list of all the hetero relationships that are "happy" (according to the rules that means they don't end and aren't tainted by horrible death). This apparently now only applies to DA, and it has to be inherent to the universe (it's happy in every playthrough). 

Okay! Straight ones:

Aveline and Donnic
Carmmen and Gheyna (they can die, true, but in 2/3 cases, they live - and there are a bunch of hilarious ways to screw them both over, but again, a possible happy hetero couple)
(if you romance neither of them) Isabela and Fenris
Evangeline and Rhys (from Asunder)
Delilah and Albert (from Awakening - althought you can let Amaranthine burn to the ground [and, hilariously enough, Nathaniel encourages you to do just that], but she explicitly tells you she's happily married)
There are also plenty of "happy" relationships in Orzammar, but I personally can't count them since there are serious issues with the whole cast system, but if that's something that doesn't bother people (and taking into account the circumstances Rica comes from) then you could inlude Rica and Bhelen, and since Rica seems happy whether you end up killing Bhelen or making him king, it can go either way, really.

The gay one (obviously):

Herren and Wade

Some of these are tied to player interactions with them (Aveline's romance sidequest for example) but just as similarly, some are not (ie. Herren and Ware/Evangeline and Rhys/Delilah and Albert).

I have to say I don't understand where you get the "has to be inherent to the universe" - "rule" (by which I guess you mean no player interference) since the problem doesn't seem to be that they're "hidden" (as in: there're only happy female SS relationships if you encourage the people in question to get together) but that there are none, and what little there are end badly (as mentioned before: Hespith and Branka, Marjolane and Liliana).

Modifié par MissOuJ, 31 mars 2013 - 06:53 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote..
Actually, I'll agree with you on that one because Wade and Herren were the only decent gay male couple in the series, so it'd be unfair for me to try to snatch that. But I suspect that wasn't what she meant, rather just seeing one that happened to be like them.

To clarify, my point was that both Marjolane/Leliana and Branka/Hespith were plot-significant moments. Branka/Hespith is especially unavaoidable. Wade and Herren, while a wonderful couple, don't carry that same gravitatas. So I think that if you are right - and if PC represenations of S/S relationships should be excluded from our evaluation - then even if DA:O had another background lesbian couple that paralleled W/H, I don't think it would counterbalance what we see from M/L or B/H. 

slimgrin wrote...
They are there. My coals weren't raked, sorry to disappoint. But this thread is something else:

You do seem filled with righteous fury. 

"Let's all tell the writers what themes to cover and how to cover them". Hilarious.

Yes, the important theme of background characters and sexual oritentation. It ranks right up there with having background NPCs of different ethnicities and genders. 

[Xilizhra]

To clarify, my point was that both Marjolane/Leliana and Branka/Hespith were plot-significant moments. Branka/Hespith is especially unavaoidable. Wade and Herren, while a wonderful couple, don't carry that same gravitatas. So I think that if you are right - and if PC represenations of S/S relationships should be excluded from our evaluation - then even if DA:O had another background lesbian couple that paralleled W/H, I don't think it would counterbalance what we see from M/L or B/H.

Perhaps not ideal, but I'm willing to meet the writers halfway if they make an effort on this subject.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

So... you call it a trend but can only bring up examples from Bioware games?

[MissOuJ]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

So... you call it a trend but can only bring up examples from Bioware games?

Well this is the second time I link to this, but here we go.

You should also check out the so called Hays Code (ie. The Motion Picture Production Code), which made it illegal to portray "sexual perversions" without people involved ending up dead, vilanous, or converted. Let me remind you this code was in effect until 1968.

So, again: unfortunate implications

[SilentK]

In Exile wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

I noticed that the background lesbian relationships tended to be disproportionately tragic than hetero and gay ones even before the OP created this thread, so I'm not over-impressed with the argument that she's stretching canon or creating problems that don't exist. Just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it isn't there.

It's true that background lesbian relationships in DA:O/DA2 have failed to show a spectrum. Bioware absolutely should improve. I think, again, where the issue comes up in this thread is in the tailoring: it started with being about all recent Bioware products (DA/ME), and then a stringent wall was set up to exclude potentially well-adjusted ME background F/F relationships (because they weren't appropriately happy) and PC relationships in both games. 

Looking at ME in particular, while Bioware certainly hit (untentionally) a landmine with Morinth/Neff, the degree of care and effort they put into Traynor/F!Shepard  is certainly a standout. But, at the same time, PC relationships don't count by the standard in the thread. And so there you see fan resistance. 

I think that the reason that you see a defensive response, effectively, is that people feel that those relationships do show a bona fide attempt by Bioware to put forward a spectrum re: the presentation of F/F relationships in-game. 

Yet, every background lesbian relationship that we've seen in Thedas so far have ended with one heinous witch turning on her lover (Branka to Hespith, Marjolaine to Leliana), whereas many hetero and even gay background relationships have partners treating each other rather decently (even if external forces drive them apart), and some relationships have been rather decent on the whole.

You mean, the two background F/F relationships in the entire series? Which I happen to think is the problem: Bioware chose to make two very significant and plot/character relevant background relationships S/S, and particularly F/F. The question is counterbalance: how does Bio make sure that the portrayal of F/F relationships is positive?

It seems obvious that in DA:O the positive F/F relationship was Leliana/F! Warden. But then the response is that it was not a background relationship. 

EVERY lesbian relationship we've seen in Thedas ends in such tragedy whereas not every hetero and gay relationship does indicates an uneven--if unintentional--portrayal.

But that's just misleading. We've seen a grand total of two plot-significant lesbian relationships in a game from 2009, that we're treated in a way where it so happened that there was a lesbian relationship invovled but the actual issue wasn't about the character not being hetereosexual in the least. Which is the kind of progressive content re: F/F relationships a progressive game should have. 

Yes, the two plot-significant F/F relationships in DA:O that we've seen end in tragedy. But the PC's lesbian relationship could very well be wonderful, and range across a rather diverse norm. 

This can easily be fixed though with one or two mild background same-sex female relationships (I'm not even saying perfectly happy, just not horribly tragic or corrupt) to counter-balance the uniformly tragic ones, but hey. Healthy relationships are boring. That's why we should have only more tragic relationships everywhere; because adding yet more miserable relationships is oh so new and intriguing. Haven't seen them yet.

Do you really think that the impact of Marjolane/Leliana or Branka/Hespith would be balanced out by swapping Wade/Herren's gender in DA:O? Because I don't think so, if you're honestly right about Bioware's portrayal of background lesbian relationships. 

Well yes, I just find it difficult to not see the f/f - relationships between PC + LI being included in the discussion. I find them so important to the game that it feels strange not to bring them to the table.

Then BioWare are in my good book for this week especially, after IGDA having a second party with scantily clad women and Jean - Max Morris's problems with getting Remember ME published because it had a female protag. It just irks me not having the positive examples that are shown in game of a female having a relationship with another female not counted, I loved them to bits and pieces. My feelings right now, all my <3 for BioWare.

[MissOuJ]

SilentK wrote...

Well yes, I just find it difficult to not see the f/f - relationships between PC + LI being included in the discussion. I find them so important to the game that it feels strange not to bring them to the table.

Then BioWare are in my good book for this week especially, after IGDA having a second party with scantily clad women and Jean - Max Morris's problems with getting Remember ME published because it had a female protag. It just irks me not having the positive examples that are shown in game of a female having a relationship with another female not counted, I loved them to bits and pieces. My feelings right now, all my <3 for BioWare.

BioWare are pretty much permanently stuck in my good books, since they get so many things right that other gaming companies seem to be doing wrong. The fact is, if BioWare didn't exist, I'd play a lot less games - and I believe many people in this thead who agree with the OP agree with me on this. Because we point out problems doesn't mean we do not love the games BioWare makes.

I don't think anyone is discounting the playable f/f relationships, but we see straight relationships everywhere in the world of Thedas regardless of PC's romance interest/sexual orientation, and althought most of them end pretty tragically, some of them pull through and get a happy(ish) ending. On the other hand, NPC f/f couples seem to have pretty universally raither tragic endings, and (if you're not playing a f/f romancing Warden/Hawke) those are the only representations you see. And there lies the problem. It's not a big problem, and probably just an oversight nobody's paid attention to before (and like I've said in this thead before, I certainly didn't notice this before the OP made this thead) but people feel like this f/f representation has unfortunate implications.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

What I'm actually more annoyed about is how they decide to make so many ''powerful'' women to be bisexual or lesbians. Characters like Branka, Marjolaine and now Celene. It's almost as if having a dominant personality means the character has to be more ''manly'' and thus take a female, usually a lot weaker lover, who fails to stand up for herself. Leliana at the beginning of DAO and Hespith are good examples of that. It's pretty stereotypical IMO.

You can still be a powerful b*tch and like men, too.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

andy69156915 wrote...

Yeah, they need to happen. Gays are at least 10% of the population, so they realistically should be more numerous then they have been in Dragon Age so far.

Not ''at least''. At maximum. Most estimations range from 4 to 10%.

When you look at the total amount of romances in DAO, I think we're pretty much there.

[imbs]

guess what, Bioware relationships are written as if by a 14 year old who is writing their first fan-fiction. People who play these games for these(or care at all about) virtual relationships need to step back and ask themselves "why?" - It's so funny that these awful romance threads get so many pages. It's a video game you know guys? Gaiders hilarious articles are the worst part.

I miss the days when I could rely on Bioware to come up with a good story and game. Is it really a suprise that every Bioware game that comes out nowadays is a joke to anyone who has ever played a real game in their lives when they focus so hard on the romance?

Modifié par imbs, 31 mars 2013 - 09:50 .

[Sejborg]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

What I'm actually more annoyed about is how they decide to make so many ''powerful'' women to be bisexual or lesbians. Characters like Branka, Marjolaine and now Celene. It's almost as if having a dominant personality means the character has to be more ''manly'' and thus take a female, usually a lot weaker lover, who fails to stand up for herself. Leliana at the beginning of DAO and Hespith are good examples of that. It's pretty stereotypical IMO.

You can still be a powerful b*tch and like men, too.

Like Morrigan and Anora?

[andy6915]

@Spaghetti_Ninja

Fun fact: pedophiles are about 5% to 8% of the population, according to studies I had to do once.

[FireAndBlood]

andy69156915 wrote...

@Spaghetti_Ninja

Fun fact: pedophiles are about 5% to 8% of the population, according to studies I had to do once.

Thats not a fun fact at all.

[andy6915]

On the plus side, very few of that % actually do anything to kids.

Now then, back on topic... I guess.

[Commander Kurt]

MissOuJ wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

I can name one gay relationship and a couple straight relationships, so it's not like happy ends/non-depressing ends are completely unheard of.

Fine, you know what? Tell me about them. Give me a list of all the hetero relationships that are "happy" (according to the rules that means they don't end and aren't tainted by horrible death). This apparently now only applies to DA, and it has to be inherent to the universe (it's happy in every playthrough). 

Okay! Straight ones:

Aveline and Donnic
Carmmen and Gheyna (they can die, true, but in 2/3 cases, they live - and there are a bunch of hilarious ways to screw them both over, but again, a possible happy hetero couple)
(if you romance neither of them) Isabela and Fenris
Evangeline and Rhys (from Asunder)
Delilah and Albert (from Awakening - althought you can let Amaranthine burn to the ground [and, hilariously enough, Nathaniel encourages you to do just that], but she explicitly tells you she's happily married)
There are also plenty of "happy" relationships in Orzammar, but I personally can't count them since there are serious issues with the whole cast system, but if that's something that doesn't bother people (and taking into account the circumstances Rica comes from) then you could inlude Rica and Bhelen, and since Rica seems happy whether you end up killing Bhelen or making him king, it can go either way, really.

The gay one (obviously):

Herren and Wade

Some of these are tied to player interactions with them (Aveline's romance sidequest for example) but just as similarly, some are not (ie. Herren and Ware/Evangeline and Rhys/Delilah and Albert).

I have to say I don't understand where you get the "has to be inherent to the universe" - "rule" (by which I guess you mean no player interference) since the problem doesn't seem to be that they're "hidden" (as in: there're only happy female SS relationships if you encourage the people in question to get together) but that there are none, and what little there are end badly (as mentioned before: Hespith and Branka, Marjolane and Liliana).

Oh, it was a rule formulated when people started bringing up PC relationships (it wouldn't be much of a trend if three out of the five lesbian relationships was happy and fulfilling, I suppose). The romance between the PC and Leliana is comparable to, for instance, the romance between Aveline and Donnic in that the player dictates if the relationship even exists, however, those adhering to the belief that a trend exists are required to disqualify the relationship with Leliana for the theory to work. Unfortunately, the relationship with Donnic (and those similar) is equally important to the theory but in reverse; they need to be allowed. It's all something of a mess, really.

Are you saying that we should be counting PC relationships in this trend? Is there a reason for excluding them?

[Volus Warlord]

MODEDIT: Removed

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mars 2013 - 09:02 .